Do good cables really enhance SQ?

[Thad E Ginathom]

I.m dubious about this test, murali,

Put just one speaker right at the center and play a mono recording. Then put the stereo pair and play the same mono recording. Both give the sound right at the center. But there will be a difference in "tonal body". Why? In the latter, there is an electrical splitting followed by acoustical coupling. Likewise, sound does not travel through a cable, an electrical signal does, and how closely that relates to the sound (before reaching the speakers where only electrical turns into acoustical) depends on the electrical properties of the cables.

The reason being that one is not listening to the same thing at all.

One central speaker is giving sound from one central point, and has the various reflections and room-stuff specific to a sound originating from that point

A Stereo pair is, by giving sound from two points, producing an illusion of a central sound --- and has an entirely different set of room effects.

 

[venkatcr]

Thad isnt this true. in the end in the impedance due to R, L and C, L&C vary due to frequency. ths is true for the speakers impedance as well..so total impedance varies. My understandig was thats why different cables behave differently amongst themselves and with different setups..since the impedence curve of the system (Cable + Speaker) is different in every system. maybe the techies in the forum can answer better..

Arj, if you keep too many variables, you can never reach a conclusion. Generally the amplifier, speakers, the amplitude, and the frequency are kept at a constant. That way, the only variable will be connection in between. Logically, cables should be measured using a single frequency note, and this measurement should be repeated at various frequencies.

Of course all this is for scientific results. Once that is covered, you then move into the subjective realm of whether you like the sound created by the combination of amplifier, speaker, and cable. Since many times, we firm up on the amplifier and the speaker, we keep trying various cables to see how, as Murali said so aptly, to get a cable that 'only minimises distortion keeping the electrical signal as pure as possible'.

Cheers

 

[arj]

Arj, if you keep too many variables, you can never reach a conclusion. Generally the amplifier, speakers, the amplitude, and the frequency are kept at a constant. That way, the only variable will be connection in between. Logically, cables should be measured using a single frequency note, and this measurement should be repeated at various frequencies.

Of course all this is for scientific results. Once that is covered, you then move into the subjective realm of whether you like the sound created by the combination of amplifier, speaker, and cable. Since many times, we firm up on the amplifier and the speaker, we keep trying various cables to see how, as Murali said so aptly, to get a cable that 'only minimises distortion keeping the electrical signal as pure as possible'.

Cheers

hi venkatcr, i would agree to the above if the objective was to measure with a test signal.
but the fact is at any given time in a system playing music, there are several frequencies of fundamental tones ANd their Sub/superharmonics also travelling through a cable at the same time.
Each of these signals will see a different impedance in the same system and if the cable changes, each of these see a different system.

In the ideal world we need a 0 (or approaching 0)impedance system to get a unchanged signal..but that is not a practical reality.

as they say, the best cable is theoretically having "no cable"

 

[murali]

I.m dubious about this test, murali,

The reason being that one is not listening to the same thing at all.

One central speaker is giving sound from one central point, and has the various reflections and room-stuff specific to a sound originating from that point

A Stereo pair is, by giving sound from two points, producing an illusion of a central sound --- and has an entirely different set of room effects.

Now we come to the crux of the problem. Long back, before stereo concept became accepted, mono recordings needed only a single center speaker. There was no dimensionality in sound. Now, a pair of speakers, with stereo recordings, creates the illusion of dimensionality, like our own pair of ears. In other words, imaging is what renders a stereo pair of speakers worthwhile to accept. It is precisely here that the cable scores, when you have high-resolution components and good loudspeakers trying to reproduce the recorded sound as truly as possible. In such systems, when you start trying out different cables, the imaging or the 3-dimensional acoustic space gets better and better when the cables you use are the right ones. That has been my experience so far. It does not necessarily mean the most expensive cables but reasonably priced and affordable to one's budget. You will agree that good things cost money. The copper or silver, the insulation material, the geometry, the manufacturing, all these cost money and if someone believes that a coat-hanger sounds the same as a normal cable, I can only sympathise with him/her and the system he/she has.

For me, the reference recording is Chesky Volume-1 where each song is carefully selected with a detailed explanation of the aspects to be looked for before listening. Try it with different cables in a real hifi system and I am certain you will notice the differences.

To repeat, observe before you think and shoot, that is the underlying principle in science. It is easy to think and write anything without observations and facts.

Good bye and cheers.
murali

 

[arj]

Thad , that can we worked out..move the speakers to an open area and do a close field listening. as long as you have more than 5 m distance free across the speakers/walls you can take out room reflections (ideal..move it to a balcony on a silent (non rainy ) night

 

[jls001]

(ideal..move it to a balcony on a silent (non rainy ) night

Hope dangerous projectiles don't start landing on the balcony:lol: from irate neighbours. Why not terrace? Much bigger space than balcony.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

...Or buckets of water !

Thad,
QED links posted by venkat are equally good.

No doubt! They looked harder work (ie more technical) to read, and from sheer laziness I postponed doing so --- but they are in my boomarks and I will read them.

Speaker Wire, A history is possibly a bit more accessible. It does not say that differences between different cables cannot be heard: it points out differences that can be heard (whilst also pointing out that some of those differences, whilst possibly preferable to the listener, are actually altering the sound) but it also points out some of the stuff that the marketing departments love to sell us, but without any real basis.

A few people have contributed to the thread that, whilst they can hear cable differences, it is not necessarily the most expensive cables, with all their marketing-department flummery, that work for them.

And here's a quote from an expensive cable manufacturer, "Sometimes they found amplifiers that just plowed right through the amplifier - cable - speaker interface such that the kind of cable used made nearly no difference." (here)

It is easy to think and write anything without observations and facts.

Sure, and sure too, you and many other fellow members have more experience than I do and more recent --- but look at the experience and backgrounds of the authors of the linked sources! Not that that means everybody has to agree with them.

We all have our prejudices: sure, I'm interested to read the QED documents, I'm very impressed with Kimber's response to Van Alstein and his conclusions, but I admit that I wouldn't even glance at an advertisement from Monster. I'd file it away with Microsoft: companies that marketed, rather than won, their way to success. Which doesn't mean to say that everything either company makes is bad. just that, where I have a choice, I'd rather deal with someone else!

.

 

[jenson]

i noticed one more thing... i dont notice much difference in my pulz pandam setup...but in my current setup...these differences are quite visible. probably coz of the ES panel..

so i guess, equipment setup plays a huge role...i would imagine it would be all the more difficult to notice these changes in a sub woofer setup...unless once has the ear for it..

 

[jls001]

i noticed one more thing... i dont notice much difference in my pulz pandam setup...but in my current setup...these differences are quite visible. probably coz of the ES panel..

so i guess, equipment setup plays a huge role...i would imagine it would be all the more difficult to notice these changes in a sub woofer setup...unless once has the ear for it..

Yes, someone on this thread (and even earlier threads of similar hues) had mentioned this time and again but none seemed to heed.

The chain must be sufficiently resolving to show up the difference a component or cable makes in the overall chain.

Forget about cables (which is "actively" contributing in the chain). In a sufficiently resolving system, even a passive device like an equipment footer makes a difference in the sound. One can hear the difference between placing a ceramic ball footer topside up (as intended by the maker) and downside up. And there is (audible) difference between different brands of ceramic footers. If one changes from ceramic footers to something like a brass cone, again one can hear a difference. I am told even different geometries of brass cones make difference. I own only one type so can't confirm about about other designs.

It would be nice to be interconnect cable (or speaker cable or power cable) agnostic and be done for life with a 500 rupee pair of ICs but the improvement that they wrought is inescapable in the right system.

 

[srinisundar]

I request who are all debating that cables will not enhance the SQ or kindly post your kits + cables used so far >>>

Regards

Wow, nobody is interested in telling about the cable used in their system where they could find no improvements

Is it so just for timepass everybody is writing without any experiencing themselves only for debating

 

[captrajesh]

Wow, nobody is interested in telling about the cable used in their system where they could find no improvements

Is it so just for timepass everybody is writing without any experiencing themselves only for debating

:clapping:hyeah::clapping:

 

[kaushik]

Wow, nobody is interested in telling about the cable used in their system where they could find no improvements

Is it so just for timepass everybody is writing without any experiencing themselves only for debating

That is why i asked people who said cable does not matter , please show us that they are using 20Rs interconnects in their system .
I feel selecting an IC is not that complicated like reading 2000 pages of experimental physics like learning teflon, cotton ,copper, air gap , rainday dry day physics ..
unless you are going DIY , dont waste reading those .
If you must you also read on the.. EMI RFI of cabinets used in in audio gear , PCB lines , internal wiring and 1lakh more concepts

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

The chain must be sufficiently resolving to show up the difference a component or cable makes in the overall chain.

Or not ...as the case may be. Let me include a couple more lines from the quote in my last post:

The manufacturer did note that, "Sometimes they found amplifiers that just plowed right through the amplifier - cable - speaker interface such that the kind of cable used made nearly no difference." So he asked me to try the cables on mundane equipment as well as on our own amplifiers (which are designed to drive difficult loads as page one of this issue points out).

That's the MD of Kimber being quoted, by the way.

Wow, nobody is interested in telling about the cable used in their system where they could find no improvements

You didn't read those posts? If not in this thread, then in others...

Is it so just for timepass everybody is writing without any experiencing themselves only for debating

Yes, it is... for me, at least! Albeit a very educational timepass

I can think of much better ways of spending hifi money and time than buying cables and swapping them in and out. Like I said, we do all have our prejudices

(Talking about it, on the other hand...

But who knows? All this will, at least semiconciously, be in my head the next time I do have to buy a cable )

 

[arj]

...
But who knows? All this will, at least semiconciously, be in my head the next time I do have to buy a cable )

Thad, it's not when you buy one..its when you put it in the system that the gremlins start doing their thing



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[jenson]

ahh.. it's a never ending cycle aint it

 

[jls001]

ahh.. it's a never ending cycle aint it

Well, grappling with existential questions that we are there are no easy right or wrong answers.

 

[jenson]

Well, grappling with existential questions that we are there are no easy right or wrong answers.

very true...in that case..i guess it's ok for me to blow my trumpet one more time

My Audiophile exposure was pretty recent, first, it was jls001 setup and then, at Mr. Lalwani's residence (Qsonix -> Audio research Tube pre amp - > Canasya Monoblocks -> 3.4 Maggies = maximum pleasure

after experiencing these two set ups, i believe my ear opened up...dunno if it was the Jazz at Mr. Lalwani's that fine tuned my ear or his setup

neverthless, after seeing these setups and (possibly) the amount of volts consumed by the monoblocks and associated gear...it's only logical to say that...everything from the power cords to cables need to be perfect delivery mechanisms....to think MX cables would drive Mr. Lalwani's setup equally efficiently is wishful thinking...coz imho, they were not designed with that purpose in mind, are MX and finolex capable of it? ofcourse yes! but their focus is different.

fast forward to now...luckily everything fell in place for me and i got an opportunity to test the following cables..

1. Siltech MXT London IC + Speaker Cable both with WBT connectors
2. Tchernov Original IC + Speaker cable
3. my oldy - bandridge IC + MX cable
4. recently got my Mogami 3103 speaker cable, anxiously awaiting Mogami IC's (postmans look like angels when they deliver such goods)

so...i got fair time with the first 3...and im no longer sure why is it so hard to see..

 

[ankj24]

in my few years of experience, i can say if it does not affect, then why are audiphiles, educated certified professionals buying good quality cables. And why are cable cos suviving.

yes it will not improve performance but bad cable can reduce performance. With signal tester and audio tester u can measure sound perf.

look here for High end audio cables | Audiophile cables | High end speaker cables by LessLoss. These guys even talk about power cables and interference in audio. but then we are talking abt pro level sets here.

 

[kaushik]

One should have have decent cables based on his experience .

Such know how will come from auditioning, web references of some experienced audiophiles etc

High end audiophile industry is running on manipulation ... so be careful when you go upgrading .
Some times shops sale some gear adding funny looking additions like stone pieces , wood pieces , wood filled with sand etc . .. dont rely review on Stereophile/AvMax
many are just timewasters.
Some guidelines from me for the fascinated cable customer:

1. One point is sure if it is too cheap then obviously the quality will be bad. For eg MX cables @ 200Rs cant give you a very good Q metal to sound right.
This one is for newbies also :
There are many china cable that look like the costly cables , also will come well packed , but think this in 200-300Rs how can they give best material your setup deserve . The indian vendor is selling it in 200Rs that means he might have got for 100Rs from china.

So what you will do if budget is <500Rs for interconnects ?
BELEDEN or panasonic ones to start, y0u have a little higher budget(500Rs to 600Rs) "DAC cables"


2. For same money always go for well known counter parts specially known for audiophile offerings
for eg instead of Monster ICs go for DHlabs
3. Always research can point out for proven but low cost alternative
eg. If in <2K you need speaker cable , get the VAN DAMME cable or the
ready to use bulk cable cut piece from well known co. just fit Banana
plugs etc
4.Limit spending on cables , concentrate on the chain

5. Ask 2 questions A) is my setup that high end to have xyz cable in it ?
B) what proof you have this is a right element for this setup ?

 

[metalmickey]

@kaushik-van damme cable?like in jean claude van damme?!.hmmm that must be some seriously strong well built cable going by its name!!!!!where are they available?seems good going by reviews!.