keith_correa
Well-Known Member
Shhhhhhh!!!!!!
Fulton Length Wires
- Thread starter Hari Iyer
- Start date
Subbu68
Well-Known Member
Here now with some math. Went back to revise travelling wave theory that we did in final year EE 33 years ago. got a similar explanation on the net
Velocity of travelling wave in a line does not depend on frequency, simply on L and C of the line. And for a lossless line 3 x 10^8 m/sec or 300,000 km / sec and it may drop a % or so with real world lines. We have hardly a couple of meter to discuss.
Velocity of travelling wave in a line does not depend on frequency, simply on L and C of the line. And for a lossless line 3 x 10^8 m/sec or 300,000 km / sec and it may drop a % or so with real world lines. We have hardly a couple of meter to discuss.
Travelling Wave on Transmission Line - Definition, Characteristics and Velocity Calculation - Electrical Concepts
Travelling wave on transmission line is the voltage / current waves which propagate from the source end to the load end during the transient condition. These waves travel along the line with the velocity equal to velocity of light if line losses are neglected.
electricalbaba.com
One has to be careful when making analogies. For example, I don't think that the analogy involving water build up holds water. That's because if the transmission line is either infinite or terminated in its characteristic the input impedance of the line is purely real (resistive). If so, when the switch is closed, there is no buildup, and the current that flows into the transmission line follows the applied voltage instantaneously.Here now with some math. Went back to revise travelling wave theory that we did in final year EE 33 years ago. got a similar explanation on the net
Velocity of travelling wave in a line does not depend on frequency, simply on L and C of the line. And for a lossless line 3 x 10^8 m/sec or 300,000 km / sec and it may drop a % or so with real world lines. We have hardly a couple of meter to discuss.
Travelling Wave on Transmission Line - Definition, Characteristics and Velocity Calculation - Electrical Concepts
Travelling wave on transmission line is the voltage / current waves which propagate from the source end to the load end during the transient condition. These waves travel along the line with the velocity equal to velocity of light if line losses are neglected.electricalbaba.com
The wire that is subject to discussion in this thread, is certainly not just any Mil Spec wire !!
It is specifically.............. m22759/11.
The /11 designation refers to wire where individual copper strands are each individually silver plated.
The /11's silver content is important, since the silver allows for an improved high frequency capability. over bare copper.
Jeff
It is specifically.............. m22759/11.
The /11 designation refers to wire where individual copper strands are each individually silver plated.
The /11's silver content is important, since the silver allows for an improved high frequency capability. over bare copper.
Jeff
What are the measurements that have been made that demonstrate the "improved high frequency capability" that you claim, and where have the results of those measurements been published?
Measurements published often mean absolutely nothing to me.
Measurements are by their nature, one-dimensional. Something can "measure good" and the unit in question can sound very bad. Conversely, something can "measure bad", and sound simply superb !!!
The human brain and ear, when listening to music playback with audio components, is capable of perceiving and analyzing many things simultaneously, that NO test equipment is capable of doing.
" Scientists don't pursue the truth, it pursues them." ( Robert W. Fulton, 1978 ).
Measurements you are asking for in your post, are crutches for people who typically have a narrow E.E. training. The best E.E.s, and there ARE some out there, will make final choices of any component by listening. IndianEars uses something like an ARC SP-8 I believe, and he is also an E.E.. I bet he doesn't care too much about how his preamp measures, but rather, is far more concerned about how it sounds to him, on music's playback.
In the case of Hari's wire configuration, topic of this thread, when I send these 114 1/4 inch long speaker cables to music lovers they have easily " taken out " 100% of the time, the listener's existing wire. 100%, even with a small sample of six audio systems, isn't too bad of a result . Yes, six for six. So theorize and guess all you want, to your heart's content, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating !
Jeff
Measurements are by their nature, one-dimensional. Something can "measure good" and the unit in question can sound very bad. Conversely, something can "measure bad", and sound simply superb !!!
The human brain and ear, when listening to music playback with audio components, is capable of perceiving and analyzing many things simultaneously, that NO test equipment is capable of doing.
" Scientists don't pursue the truth, it pursues them." ( Robert W. Fulton, 1978 ).
Measurements you are asking for in your post, are crutches for people who typically have a narrow E.E. training. The best E.E.s, and there ARE some out there, will make final choices of any component by listening. IndianEars uses something like an ARC SP-8 I believe, and he is also an E.E.. I bet he doesn't care too much about how his preamp measures, but rather, is far more concerned about how it sounds to him, on music's playback.
In the case of Hari's wire configuration, topic of this thread, when I send these 114 1/4 inch long speaker cables to music lovers they have easily " taken out " 100% of the time, the listener's existing wire. 100%, even with a small sample of six audio systems, isn't too bad of a result . Yes, six for six. So theorize and guess all you want, to your heart's content, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating !
Jeff
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I think that people who has been in audio for awhile, pretty-much all know that silver has superior high frequency response. LOL.
It often seems to me that the only reasons you post, is because you need attention, you seek to shame me, and seemingly you have nothing else presently to do with yourself.
This is sad..... People here are not idiots, they " read " both of us Gary - very well.
Why don't you start your own threads ? You never have. Contribute something to the HFV Forum Members in a positive way,!!
STOP exclusively trolling me, and continually diluting each thread's continuity. .......... and ............
STOP trolling others ( 100% unlike you ) who have actual listening experiences with these DIY build projects.
Jeff
It often seems to me that the only reasons you post, is because you need attention, you seek to shame me, and seemingly you have nothing else presently to do with yourself.
This is sad..... People here are not idiots, they " read " both of us Gary - very well.
Why don't you start your own threads ? You never have. Contribute something to the HFV Forum Members in a positive way,!!
STOP exclusively trolling me, and continually diluting each thread's continuity. .......... and ............
STOP trolling others ( 100% unlike you ) who have actual listening experiences with these DIY build projects.
Jeff
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Was trying to recollect my memory..does not the frequency affect the capacitance and the inductance ? hence the velocity may not get affected but different frequencies see different impedencesHere now with some math. Went back to revise travelling wave theory that we did in final year EE 33 years ago. got a similar explanation on the net
Velocity of travelling wave in a line does not depend on frequency, simply on L and C of the line. And for a lossless line 3 x 10^8 m/sec or 300,000 km / sec and it may drop a % or so with real world lines. We have hardly a couple of meter to discuss.
Travelling Wave on Transmission Line - Definition, Characteristics and Velocity Calculation - Electrical Concepts
Travelling wave on transmission line is the voltage / current waves which propagate from the source end to the load end during the transient condition. These waves travel along the line with the velocity equal to velocity of light if line losses are neglected.electricalbaba.com
Was just thinking if the above works then its possible that the harmonics of the same fundamental being at different frequencies would be attenuated differently and hence the tonality of the sound changes ?
Subbu68
Well-Known Member
True.. for laymen that analogy may explain how wave is propagated. That could be the idea of that website
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yes. Impedance due to capacitance and inductance are frequency dependent.
Capacitance causes impedance to decrease as frequency increases. Any two conductors close to each other causes capacitance. This capactiance depends on the distance between the conductors, the surface area of the conductors and the medium between them (called dielectric). Any cable has capacitance. cable capacitance shorts higher frequency more than lower frequencies. Hence cables with high capacitance will lose HF component. Thick cables (thicker inner conductor) will have high capactance. Longer cables will have higher capacitance, Increasing the shielding around cables increases capacitance. cables with thinner insulation will have higher capacitance. That's why we have twisted pairs. The twisted pairs inside CAT cables have the copper wires coated with a material with a dielectric that gives very very bad capacitance. Hence it is very good for high frequencies. The copper wires inside twisted pairs are very thin to have low surface area. Thinner wires do increase resitance but resistance is not frequency dependent and is a lesser evil compared to capacitance.
The impedance due to capacitance is inversely proportional to frequency and capacitance. It decreases for higher frequency and higher capacitance.
People react to bad cables in two ways.
1. Certain class of people will say. Wow!! This cable is so good. This has got good bass. This cable sounds warm, etc, etc
2. Certain class of people will say, Shit!!! This cable is so bad. It has lost some high end, some sheen from the music.
If you have a perfect speaker and amplifier, interconnect cables convert the equipment from a neutral sounding machine into a musical instrument with different appeal to different people. Cable manufacturers exploit this. I would rather have a graphic equalizer adjusting the last 2 silders than buy a cable that advertizes itself as warm sounding, etc.
Inductance causes impedance to increase as frequency increases. It is directly proportional to the frequency and the inductance. Any twist and turns of cable will cause inductance. But in general inductance can be kept quite low.
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Thanks , very nicely explained. I do have a further clarification/doubt.
Suppose we take a simple sound like the thump of a Drum ( just one beat) at say 80Hz.
- its going to have Even Sub harmonics at 40 Hz and 20 Hz and a tactile signal at 10 Hz. Odd Sub harmonics at 26.67..etc
-Its going to have Even Harmonics at 160, 320 and odd at 240 and 400 etc
The Timbre of the Drum is a complex wave, which is a summation of all the upper and lower harmonics which create the sound envelope for that beat
I assume all of these signals are sent out from the Amp to the speaker and will suffer different impedances ( Cable + Speaker loads) since frequencies are different and hence the capacitance and inductance are different ?
I am wondering if at some level the there will be some losses which will vary by frequency and hence the Timbre will be slightly different when reproduced in comparison with another cable which may attenuate it differently due to its L&C being different ? ( the difference can be insignificant though)
I have a question, and request your help..
You say "Any two conductors close to each other causes capacitance. " This is how I have always understood it . Increased capacitance kills the highs. Twisting polarities, increases capacitance, kills the highs.
Then you go on to say .......
" The twisted pairs inside CAT cables have the copper wires coated with a material with a dielectric that gives very very bad capacitance. Hence it is very good for high frequencies. "
I really am not 100% sure what twisted pairs are, and how and what they are used for. This second statement, particularly after the word " Hence " is a puzzlement to me. I would think twisted pair wires ( assuming different polarities ) would increase capacitance dramatically, and be very poor for maintaining high frequencies. Are twisted pairs of the same polarity? What am I missing , to understand your theoretical discussion.
Thanks in advance,
Jeff
You say "Any two conductors close to each other causes capacitance. " This is how I have always understood it . Increased capacitance kills the highs. Twisting polarities, increases capacitance, kills the highs.
Then you go on to say .......
" The twisted pairs inside CAT cables have the copper wires coated with a material with a dielectric that gives very very bad capacitance. Hence it is very good for high frequencies. "
I really am not 100% sure what twisted pairs are, and how and what they are used for. This second statement, particularly after the word " Hence " is a puzzlement to me. I would think twisted pair wires ( assuming different polarities ) would increase capacitance dramatically, and be very poor for maintaining high frequencies. Are twisted pairs of the same polarity? What am I missing , to understand your theoretical discussion.
Thanks in advance,
Jeff
Consider the cable impedance and the preamplifier impedance to be in parallel. For argument's sake let's say the preamp has an input impdenace of 100 kilo ohms. At low frequency the cable impedance is very high at few mega ohms. At high frequencies, Let's say 15 kHz, it becomes around 100 killo ohms. For 400 Hz, it is 4 mega ohms. So if you have the music source fed to this preamp, high frequency of 15 kHz will see a impedance of 50 kilo ohms. But 400 Hz and below will hardly see any drop in impedance. This will hardly attenuate the low frequency component, but will attenuate the higher frequency more.
After you have amplifed this signal, the output impedance is in few ohms. Adding few kilo ohms to his impedance will be beyond human hearing. So the cable capacitance has more detrimental effect for the interconnects than speaker cables.
I have played a lot with cable capacitance. e.g.
Mogami 2549 gives around 100 pF per meter. It is good for connecting the turntable to the phono preamp because most cartridge are designed to have certain capacitance in the cables. But amazon basic cable having less han 60 pF per meter performs better than Mogami 2549 if you are going to use as interconnect to connect your non-turntable source to preamplifier. Making your own cable using twisted pair gives even better result than the amazon basic cable. Note: Yes, amazon basic cable is more neutral than mogami 2549.
The impedance can be calculated here
Capacitor Impedance Calculator - Engineering Calculators & Tools
This tool calculates a capacitor's reactance for a given capacitance value and signal frequency.
correct
If you don't twist the conductors, you will severely impact the noise rejection capability of the wires. The computer is full of noise producing equipment. The capacitance has been brought to very very low levels due to excellent work done with Chemistry by the scientists in ensuring that the electrons in the insulating material doesn't move when electrical field is applied. So by twisting you will sure increase the capacitance but that is much of a lesser problem because it is already very low. Just consider that between the two evils in computer transmission, noise is the bigger evil than capacitance (which is already low thanks to thin copper wires and good dielectric).
OK. Thanks.
I was really only thinking about audio wiring and audio design. In the last several years, I have been untwisting wires, and splitting dual channel molded interconnect cables so as to have separated wires, and it consistently translates into subjective listening improvements with my home's equipment.
A visual from 2016 :
Not my set up, but notice how the black and white speaker wires, coming off the amp on the right, have polarities separated ? Notice how the two channels from the attenuator are totally distanced from each other? BTW, that speaker lead wire is m22759/11. But in 2016, we were only using 12+12 AWG, and had not gotten around to do the testing to confirm the best lengths. That was optimized in early 2020.
l :
This pdf (link posted below) has excellent theoretical knowledge.
I guess if you don't have any noise, emi pickup by untwisting the wires, it will definitely be better than having them twisted as far as frequency response is concerned.
In my experience, twisted cables are more beneficial sonically and also in terms of layout. I have been in situations where straight wires have also worked with no sonic advantageos, but where EMI/RFI is prevelent, twisted is the way to go.
The capacitance build-up you are talking about with twisted cables is so very minuscule for the legths we use that it is beyond even a bat's audiometrics.
Coaxial cables are even better than twisted cables at rejection.
It is good that you prefer straight wires, but is not an universal/scientific reality both subjectively and objectively. Just accept that get along.
This thread by @Hari Iyer is about Fulton lenghts and it is better if comments are restricted to user experiences of that or the technical side of it.
In the past I have tried Fulton lengths. Honestly it sounds the same as a 1 m or a 2 m wire. I don’t understand what the fuss is about Fulton length. If it was so clearly demonstrative, everybody would have made cables of that length. To me it’s just a marketing gimmick. Even this 1.5 m for a balanced ic is a gimmick. I think all these theories must have come up so that manufacturers could sell more wire.
I stick to lengths which is 1 feet more than my requirements so that it gives me some flexibility to move stuff around.
But if Fulton lengths and silver plated wire gives someone peace of mind that it’s the best sounding then so be it. To each his own
I stick to lengths which is 1 feet more than my requirements so that it gives me some flexibility to move stuff around.
But if Fulton lengths and silver plated wire gives someone peace of mind that it’s the best sounding then so be it. To each his own
Does Fulton length include the connectors or just the wire length?
My logic says, if using connectors, they should be considered in this experiment.
I may be wrong though.
FYI/disclaimer:
I have had the opportunity to try 57.125 inches (~5 ft) using electrical wire in 2 rigs.
They did not sound any different as compared 6ft or 7ft or 8 ft wires.
Cheers,
Raghu
My logic says, if using connectors, they should be considered in this experiment.
I may be wrong though.
FYI/disclaimer:
I have had the opportunity to try 57.125 inches (~5 ft) using electrical wire in 2 rigs.
They did not sound any different as compared 6ft or 7ft or 8 ft wires.
Cheers,
Raghu
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