Is Vinyl for me ?

[mstillalive]

Zen Masters of the TT world,

There comes a time in a mans life when he has to decide the path he has to follow. For me , it seems, the time is ripe to make that decision. I do not know if it is the need to get more out of my music or a subconscious itch that has been left untreated for years now. But i seek advice.
Currently I own a stereo setup as follows

WD Mybook Live(NAS) --Over wifi --> Cambridge Audio NP30 -- Over coax--> Arcam irDAC -- > Arcam A19 --- > Quad 11 L
All of my music is stored as CD's ripped into FLAC

This has been a fairly recent setup and my journey in quality audio is still in it's infancy. So please forgive my ignorance .
As an individual, here is who I am
1. I have always loved listening to music and a wide variety.
2. I am not a patient person and fairly lazy.
3. I have until very recently had never heard of anything in terms of quality audio. I believed, Bose was all that one needed. so the past few months have been nothing short of coming out of Dark Ages.
4. Genre wise, I like thrash metal ( early metallica and megadeth ), hard rock (g 'n r et al),Grunge( a la Pearl Jam), Bollywood and basically anything popular
5. In my music wise formative years, I always fancied how the LPs and EPs looked. the idea of listening to them seemed fantastic.Especially Floyd/Metallica/GnR/Maiden .
6. I live in an extremely dusty environment.

now that we have established who I am, my question to you is, do you think Vinyl is actually a medium for someone like me? If yes,
1. Between Rega RP1 and Project Debut Carbon, what do you think is a good starting point. Will these sound alright with my current setup. will the phono on FMJ A19 do a decent job?
2. At this point, I don't seem to be able to get my hands on either of these.
3. How easy is it to find LP's for above mentioned artists.
4. People have warned me that vinyl is an expensive hobby, honestly i am a little too set in my ways and mostly listen to a very specific set list of song over and over again. So if you were to ask me right now, I do not think i am into this for the joy of collecting records.

I appreciate you patience and my apologies for the long post.

Cheers
~m

 

[jls001]

To try and put a one-line answer to the subject, no, vinyl is not for everyone. This is not to discourage you but to try and steer you away from romantic notions of old-world records, warm and fuzzy sonics, the perpetual war of "vinyl is superior to CDs" which continues to be fought with religious fervour, etc.

First off, vinyl is very difficult to get right. Unlike CD playback which works or doesn't work, analog has about 50 shades of grey - mostly on the darker end of the spectrum before one is allowed to see the light. This is because analog playback is dependent on so many factors like the quality of the turntable, the cartridge used and how well it matches the tone arm, the quality of interconnects and phono preamp, and how well it has been set up and fine tuned. Weirdly, computer audio is akin to vinyl in that different people get different mileages.

Vinyl demands of you that you learn at least the bare basics of turntable setup, matching cartridges to the arm and using a suitable phono preamps. It isn't plug and play - even the simplest setups that come factory fitted with cartridges and pre-aligned, demands from the user a properly levelled equipment support. And that's just for starters.

An optimised vinyl system (in terms of set up and fine tuning) can sound very good. And for no apparent reason it can suddenly sound poor, sometimes leading to lots of frustrations. The trick here is to have a generous reserve of patience, and to learn to troubleshoot and resolve problems oneself.

Once you learn to get it right, the experience is very rewarding. So if you view this as a parallel fork in your ongoing audio journey, and like any journey that can have moments of highs, lows, excitements, tedium, learnings, unlearnings, but most of all if you view that journey as as an opportunity to discover new music (e.g. - good opportunity to venture outside of your thrash metal comfort zone), you will enjoy it. Just note that the highs can sometimes be elusive, and they can be few and far in between, but they're there. Sorry if this sounds like a mirthless rant. I'm trying to give you an idea of what's involved.

Most of the bands you mentioned should be easy enough to get on records.

Debut Carbon with stock Ortofon OM10 cartridge sounds reasonably good. However it lacks any form of adjustability. It is nearly plug and play. I have not heard the RP1 so can't comment, but Rega builds brilliant tonearms.

Alternatively, look for good condition vintage belt drives like Thorens TD150 and TD160. I personally prefer their manual models and would avoid their semi-auto models. If you're not hung up on a partcular drive method, you can also look at good direct drive (vintage) models from Japan.

 

[reubensm]

With Vinyl, the best approach is to "smell the coffee" before tasting it, and definitely, before drinking it. As Joshua has rightly put it, Vinyl is not for everyone. Do not intend to discourage but I am rather nervous when an enthusiast arrives from the digital duniya and talks about vinyl as often it ends up with a comparison between digital and analogue vinyl. If you have heard records and have discussed the effort that goes behind building and maintaining a collection and the equipment involved, you will have a fair idea about what comes with the deal. If it still interests you, indulge.

 

[Hiten]

Very clear and precise thoughts from Joshua. Very well put.
Regards

 

[shafic]

Well said, josh!!:clapping:

 

[mstillalive]

Joshua,

Thank you for such a detailed reply. There seems to be a strong feel of 'coming straight from the heart ' to your reply and I really appreciate it.
I do not think the I have any sense of nostalgia associated with vinyl. I grew up in the times when Tapes were the norm and a family where music appreciation was nonexistent ( Not that I am complaining, it's just the way it was). Old world charm ? Perhaps not.
As far as the plug and play aspect, I do not think I was expecting that either. But what I wonder is, if Vinyl is such a finicky medium, how did people enjoy it as a household player in days of yore ? Or was it just a lack of choices back then?
I think of myself as someone who can tinker around. Can I do a clean solder ? solder, Yes , clean.. No! But I do not shy away from reading up and fixing issues as long as it does not require precision skill acquired with experience over a period of time. I guess I pride myself with having a bit of common sense.
I do not think you are trying to discourage me, in fact you all seem to be trying to shield me from a possible disappointment. Thank you for looking out .
Are Digital and Analogue such extreme ends of the spectrum that a transition/toggle from one end to the other is often not enjoyable(I am not giving up on CD's and FLAC's just yet ) ?
When you say "but most of all if you view that journey as an opportunity to discover new music (e.g. - good opportunity to venture outside of your thrash metal comfort zone), you will enjoy it" does this mean that Vinyl as a medium is not great for Thrash Metal and the likes and perhaps more suitable for a Classical/Acoustic/Jazz experience ?
Also, I don't think i have a very discerning ear, what I look for is that joy of listening to a tune without really worry about imaging, sound stage or any other nuances I often see being quoted in reviews and write ups.
Unfortunately, I am someone who has to experience the pitfalls firsthand before I can learn to avoid them so yeah firsthand experience work for me.
And if I do decide to venture in the world of vinyl, I think I will be reaching out to all of you for guidance and mentoring. Can I assess a vintage TT or any TT for that matter right now ? Definitely not and that is the reason for a my inclination towards these two entry level TT's or maybe something even cheaper and in the same performance bracket?

Cheers
~m

 

[kuruvilajacob]

I will prefer a Rega RP1 over the Project player. Getting quality records may not be that easy unless one buys from one of the various sites offering them. I would suggest getting a good used Japanese TT to begin with and after getting the feel of how to use the TT, a new entrant can think of going in for more expensive Rega RP 1 or Project. Help can be sought from local FMs during initial periods of use.

 

[mpw]

hi,

Vinyl needs to be experienced.

Therefore the OP must make efforts to go to a friends home or to a friendly dealer maybe.. ( maybe ) to listen to vinyl for some time ( 2 or 3 records can be purchased as an investment ) and get a hang of it.

Then start with a small investment on vinyl if he likes it.

Else.. start with a vintage TT player ( there are few on sale on the forum itself ) and take it from there... it wont be too much of an investment to start with.

The Arcam A19 is a good amp and the Quad is a good speaker and if we assume that the OP is listening to similar music over FLAC and likes it..... then the existing setup should work for him as well.

Now good vinyl or top class vinyl... is not something that is a 0 or 1 story.... as josh said.. it takes time / inclination and effort and money. That stage can come later.

But certainly it will be nice to take a first step to explore as the truth is out there and to be experienced.

let the bug bite.. if you like it.. get bitten some more else.. ctrl alt del


mpw

 

[sunder]

jlsoo1, you very nicely explained about the journey for vinyl, not only for the beginners but also the peoples who frustrated and feel upset. Well written. Thank you.
Regards,
sunder.

 

[jls001]

I do not think you are trying to discourage me, in fact you all seem to be trying to shield me from a possible disappointment. Thank you for looking out .

I have seen too many people jumping into the analog bandwagon with rose-tinted eyes and coming away disappointed due to unrealistic expectations. This forum as well as others are often guilty of painting an unduly rosy picture of the vinyl experience. The actual experience can be quite a bit more mundane.

Are Digital and Analogue such extreme ends of the spectrum that a transition/toggle from one end to the other is often not enjoyable(I am not giving up on CD's and FLAC's just yet ) ?

Don't give up on your digital setup. A good digital setup is hard to beat for sound quality, ease of use, and the need for zero tinkering. I have been through a lot of iteration of turntables (five or six, iirc), as many tonearms and phono stages, twice that many cartridges, but my CD player resolutely remains the gold standard that I am trying to match, if not surpass. A good digital setup and good analog setup should sound quite similar than different.

When you say "but most of all if you view that journey as an opportunity to discover new music (e.g. - good opportunity to venture outside of your thrash metal comfort zone), you will enjoy it" does this mean that Vinyl as a medium is not great for Thrash Metal and the likes and perhaps more suitable for a Classical/Acoustic/Jazz experience ?

On the contrary, a good vinyl setup will play any genre. Proof? DJs play loud and rumbunctious electronica on their turntables. If one thinks metal or thrash is hard core, the intricacy, complexity, dynamic swings and musicality of many western music orchestral numbers (e.g. Tchaikovsky's 1812 Festival Overture Op 49) will make most Metallica or Megadeth numbers sound like an 80s hair metal ballad.

The suitability of an audio setup for a particular genre is more to do with the overall chain than of one component. For example, a loudspeaker that can go loud is preferable for metal but IMHO that speaker need not go deep down. 40-45 Hz - coupled with room gain - is more than enough to reproduce what metal can throw at it. Which means you will need a decently large bookshelf or at least a midsized floorstander. By the same token, a full ranger that limits to 60-80 Hz will not cut the mustard for such a genre. Surprisingly, a small ensemble acoustic jazz band (trios or quartets) having double bass are much more demanding of reproduction chain to bring out the essence of bass.

Also, I don't think i have a very discerning ear, what I look for is that joy of listening to a tune without really worry about imaging, sound stage or any other nuances I often see being quoted in reviews and write ups.
Unfortunately, I am someone who has to experience the pitfalls firsthand before I can learn to avoid them so yeah firsthand experience work for me.
And if I do decide to venture in the world of vinyl, I think I will be reaching out to all of you for guidance and mentoring. Can I assess a vintage TT or any TT for that matter right now ? Definitely not and that is the reason for a my inclination towards these two entry level TT's or maybe something even cheaper and in the same performance bracket?

That's what music is all about but we tend to get lost in the technicalities and the more esoteric aspects of music reproduction. I plead guilty to this.

There are quite a few analogphiles in the NCR region. You should go listen to some good setups and experience what vinyl can/cannot do.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

But what I wonder is, if Vinyl is such a finicky medium, how did people enjoy it as a household player in days of yore ? Or was it just a lack of choices back then?

Lack of choice, absolutely. Whether we played it on a mono box with a ceramic cartridge, or something more fancy with separate stereo amplifier and speakers, it was all we had.

I don't think that vinyl is finicky: i think that maybe vinyl listeners are. No, that is absolutely not rude in any way: I have no difficulty in believing that absolutely ever combination of deck, plinth, tone arm, cartridge, stylus, pre-amp, sounds different. So Vinyl offers an absolutely limitless scope for tinkering/upgrading and generally changing stuff. And that is also where it can get expensive.

But that is not obligatory. I've had the same un-tinkered deck since 1980. True, it is seldom used these days, and, if it was, I might catch an upgrade bug --- but, when I need to play a record, it remains just fine for me.

I think of myself as someone who can tinker around. Can I do a clean solder ? solder, Yes , clean.. No! But I do not shy away from reading up and fixing issues as long as it does not require precision skill acquired with experience over a period of time. I guess I pride myself with having a bit of common sense.

You describe yourself as a lazy person. I'm lazy too. Whatever the purist may say, there is no way that I ever wanted a turntable that was not at least sem-automatic... You have just been lulled into a dream-like state by a much loved piece of music; you want to savour it. The click-click-click of the stylus on that inner grove is a great destroyer of such peace!

Just how lazy are you? Sometimes, it's about all I can do to reach out 1.5m, turn on the required switches, and move the mouse . Whilst the cover, the physical object, and the whole physical procedure of playing a record is what many of us would say is the actual magic of vinyl, do you want to go through that every time you play something? Just practical aspects!

Are Digital and Analogue such extreme ends of the spectrum that a transition/toggle from one end to the other is often not enjoyable(I am not giving up on CD's and FLAC's just yet ) ?

Not at all! Those who digitise vinyl want the result to sound the same. And it can. Not two ends of a spectrum, but the same music being delivered in different ways.

When you say "but most of all if you view that journey as an opportunity to discover new music (e.g. - good opportunity to venture outside of your thrash metal comfort zone), you will enjoy it" does this mean that Vinyl as a medium is not great for Thrash Metal and the likes and perhaps more suitable for a Classical/Acoustic/Jazz experience ?

I can't speak of individual genres, and have not bought any vinyl for maybe 15 years or more, but I would have thought that vinyl-onlys would be more the oldies, obscure stuff. You'd know already, if that was what you wanted to collect.

Also, I don't think i have a very discerning ear, what I look for is that joy of listening to a tune without really worry about imaging, sound stage or any other nuances ...

The don't worry about what media/format/etc/ it is recorded on! And don't necessarily add another one to your system, unless you need need it because you collect something specific.

My strictly personal point of view is that I can't imagine why anyone would go in for vinyl (or LPs as I still prefer to call them) unless they already have a cupboard full. But I know people who have, and who love the result.

Joshua posted much wisdom. Do please also take a look at some cold, objective stuff about vinyl/digital: Hydrogenaudio wiki.

You can take the deeper/wider/broader/finer/whatever claims, especially from new-to-vinyl people, with a large pinch of salt. But we cannot tell them that they are wrong to prefer the sound, because it's their choice. Maybe you would too

 

[rohitmusic]

IMHO of-course...

I have come to realize one thing that Hi Fidelity audio is driven by many things..

Many times it is a "fad". It is like a wave and we all want to ride it.
Many things actually dictate the format we will be most comfortable with.

I still like the FM tuner playing songs without me needing to be in control..
The convenience of the ipod shuffle shuffling tunes while relaxing on the couch without needing to bother about the pile of equipment is such liberating!
Putting the CD into the CD player and playing the "Play" button triggers a different experience and excitement of the disk now spinning and being played..
With vinyl you actually have a rack dedicated for all your Vinyls which you admire....., take care of... and clean them... probably more than of yourself (clean, sleeve it, double sleeve it with outer sleeves...) Use a microfiber cloth to clean it and a carbon fiber brush to get rid of the dust particles. Hold it carefully and place on the platter to spin.. carefully position the tonearm and gently lower it to make contact with the Vinyl. Almost as if that was the single most important task in your life and needed to be done right.. the point in time of utmost focus and care (better than any meditation for concentrating really!). Hearing the few clicks and pops before the first tune starts playing.. Observing for any hum and then once the music starts playing... the clicks and pops hide behind like the moon in the clouds

So you can see that Vinyl can be an very immersive and obsessive experience which goes very well with the "being an audiophile" story.

The word "obsessive" can take you to limits previously unexplored..
you may end up at places you never imagined you would go to in search of that one vinyl or the one right turntable or even that tiny screw to mount the cart to the head shell! "Everything" is a search and an adventure. At times you will end up in places you would never dare to visit! Forget your ego and do whatever may... for that one illusive vinyl record!

It also means getting records in not so good condition (if you get the one of your choice in the first place that is). Then cleaning with the solution made from the magic potion (IPA and distilled water 1:3 proportion with a surfactant - which also you will explore - is tritonX better or the Ezee liquid wash or perhaps something else..).

And once you have that records searching for a better copy of the same.. a double perhaps with a friend.. or maybe an "imported" pressing would be awesome!

A tweak here and a tweak there to get better sound...

This is roughly the story line that I ended up staging for myself.. the experience could be simplified to a great extent by just getting a good TT and few good quality records.
BUT for "fiddlers" and "tweakers" like me for whom there is always a scope for improvement here and there getting satisfied in the first go would be such a "bummer" and a no.. NO. So vinyl provides a good playground in such a case.

This means that going Vinyl was not just a format change for me and ended up to be something more.. "Better" or "worse" is difficult to say.

We get an choice to define what that "more" is and how much "more" it should be..

Unless one travels that path it is almost impossible to forecast whether it is for you or not and how far you want to travel it! And especially in Vinyl travelling with some company always helps especially in the beginning!

Cheers!

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Nicely put.

There's a kind of poetry in the vinyl experience, and it shows in the way that many vinyl overs talk about it. I mean stuff like Rohit just posted, and not the factually-wrong technical claims. But perhaps even that is part of the romance: when you have just met your most beautiful girl, you don't want to hear that, in reality, she has a wart on her nose.

 

[mstillalive]

Thank you all for the wise words and taking time to help explain things.

Slightly odd topic,
One kind FM offered to let go of his Rega RP1 TT. But he is based out of Bangalore and is skeptical about shipping it to Delhi. Are there safe ways to do that or will it be better if I can find someone travelling to Delhi instead to agree to carry it for me ?
Do HFV forum rules stipulate I have to have a certain number of posts before i can send( or reply to ) PM's
Cheers
~m

 

[mstillalive]

Thank you all for the wise words and taking time to help explain things.

Slightly odd topic,
One kind FM offered to let go of his Rega RP1 TT. But he is based out of Bangalore and is skeptical about shipping it to Delhi. Are there safe ways to do that or will it be better if I can find someone travelling to Delhi instead to agree to carry it for me ?
Do HFV forum rules stipulate I have to have a certain number of posts before i can send( or reply to ) PM's
Cheers
~m

I meant Slightly off topic*

 

[mstillalive]

Gents,

I see a Techincs SL d-21 in the Classifieds here on HFV. Can one of you enlightened souls help me figure out if it will be a good starting option? Can i get some more juice out of it at a later stage with perhaps a cart upgrade ?
Cheers
~m

 

[Shivam]

I would suggest to keep away from vinyl.

My reasons are -
You live in a dusty environment.
If you have not experienced vinyl, then it may not be very pleasant for you with the clicks and pops.
The investment for an equivalent system to what you have in digital is going to be high.
If you don't have any LPs with you, it further doesn't make any sense buying TT.
You might not find all the music that you have with you on digital as LPs.

(Vinyl is good. It sounds good even with the clicks and pops. The LPs turning around on the TT look good. The album art is something to admire. Yes, I use a TT but I still prefer the comfort and ease of a digital system. My daughter tried to tinker around with the TT and so I have presently packed it away.)

 

[hemantwaghe]

I would suggest to keep away from vinyl.

My reasons are -
You live in a dusty environment.
If you have not experienced vinyl, then it may not be very pleasant for you with the clicks and pops.
The investment for an equivalent system to what you have in digital is going to be high.
If you don't have any LPs with you, it further doesn't make any sense buying TT.
You might not find all the music that you have with you on digital as LPs.

(Vinyl is good. It sounds good even with the clicks and pops. The LPs turning around on the TT look good. The album art is something to admire. Yes, I use a TT but I still prefer the comfort and ease of a digital system. My daughter tried to tinker around with the TT and so I have presently packed it away.)

Right advise Doc
As Ravi Shastri The god of cliched commentarysays - That's just what the doctor ordered
hyeah:hyeah:hyeah:

Buddy first I feel your genre disks are difficult to get - if not impossible ...I mean do you want to source everything from Amazon UK and Dicogs ? Are you comfortable? Also on Amazon UK there are only 56 thrash metal disks with average price around GBP 15 to 20 .. so a decent 100 disk collection can set you for couple of lack rupees if not more.

In India sellers become greedy and charges astronomical prices for used ROCK titles - your genre is rarer. Ditto about bolywood - decline in production started appx 30 years back and it was stopped around 22 -25 years . Records of the movies Quamat Se Quamat Tak and Tezaab is difficult to get. Then some small resurgence happened and some titles were released on a smaller scale. So for bollywood too you are practically restricted to classical bollywood ..

By the way many of the used record seller know Floyd, Metallica ,GnR Def Leppard ,doors and many popular rock bands. So they offer such a good prices for USED records that IMPORTING NEW records comes out cheaper


--
From a smalltime used Audio ( Incl turntables) and Vinyl seller

 

[analogadikt]

As somebody has rightly suggested, before investing in a turntable, try to audition a vinyl system. Request that owner to play some records that are NOT in the best condition, and have some scratches and faults. We all have such records in our collections, as it is not possible tole find faultless secondhand records every time. You should also buy some records from the local market in Delhi and from the net. If you are happy with that experience, invest in a turntable.

You should also note that if you like vinyl, you may become become interested in other obsolate technologies such as valve (tube) amps, vintage speakers etc. Then you shall want to sample further variations of these themes such as single end and pushpull, full range and co-axiel. This is a never ending story that usully goes on for the lifetime.

HTH

 

[hemantwaghe]

You should also note that if you like vinyl, you may become become interested in other obsolate technologies such as valve (tube) amps, vintage speakers etc.


HTH

By the way valve I do not think is obsolete as it can be used with modern sources ......

Also what is difference between Moden and Vintage speakers? any fundamental technology shieft?