My Experiments With Truth

[suri]

Our Mahathma experimented with various aspects of truth (including, most importantly, celibacy) and did not discover anything of import...., but then, the important thing was that he experimented!

I, after reading so much about the connection between the electronics and the transducers in the sound reproduction apparatus, experimented!

everything else being the same (the audio source {CD 6002 Marantz}, the integrated amplifier{ PM17 Marantz} and the monster interconnect) - the variables were-

(1) van den hul cs22 speaker wire between the amp and speakers

(2) finolex 2.5 sq mm housegard wire between amp and speakers

(3) finolex 4.0 sq mm housegard wire between amp and speakers

(4) I laid a blade to the finolex 2.5 sq mm insulation, exposed the copper strands, and used single strands of the recovered wire (8 feet in length) as positive and negative leads to the speakers - four strands in all, insulated with cloth sleeves {available at shops purveying electrical goods}

Using the same source material, i could not perceive any difference in the sound i heard even at high volume.

 

[magma]

hmmm

i appreciate the truth ...hehe

nway dude you forgeot to mention the speakers.

maybe more resolving speakers might expose somethin, but in budget equipment with untrained ears i doubt it
(your amp though is lovely)

i have always said.
blind test is the acid test.
otherwise theres a high chance of your pysch telling you the non exisistant differnce

 

[gobble]

Good stuff! Can you experiment with CDP<>Amp ICs and let us know your opinion?

Cheers

 

[silverheart]

@Suri,
If you don't perceive any difference, how about keeping each channel on different cables.. Do they make a difference to imaging, and how exactly? Eager to know the outcome!

 

[suri]

It would be good if you mentioned the speakers. I assume these are your own creations?

I found absolutely no difference between interconnects and speaker wire myself, until I got myself some really good speakers.

= THE SAD, BUT REVEALING, TRUTH!

 

[reju]

Maybe DIY speakers are not accurate enough for these tests, to show that minimal difference?

 

[soundsgreat]

Hi,

Suri Am surprised to hear this !! Well it does take some time for one to gauge the difference,but you are far from that as you have created tonnes of speakers and should be able to.......

Well what can I say ? perhaps need more listening ?

Also if you can bring it whenever you are coming to bangalore,we can take it for a spin in my setup and see how it goes hyeah:!

Maybe DIY speakers are not accurate enough for these tests, to show that minimal difference?

I most certainly and strongly disagree to this !! Coz there is no way in hell a DIY speaker be lacking to show the detail ! and certainly not the one in the question hyeah:!!

What drivers Suri has used in his latest creation is a top of the line Scanspeak Relevator series :clapping: !! which is currently one of THE BEST available ! so I have absolutely no doubt bout its capabilities !

Its not that someone with some fancy drivers put in a old box lying around in a house and calls it a DIY towers !! this is serious stuff !

Although and however if one were to do the crude thing of not designing a box and shoving it some branded drivers expecting it do miracles I can agree what you say !!

Regards.

 

[reju]

Hi,

Suri Am surprised to hear this !! Well it does take some time for one to gauge the difference,but you are far from that as you have created tonnes of speakers and should be able to.......

Well what can I say ? perhaps need more listening ?

Isn't this like saying "I know you are good...but you know what I mean?"hyeah:.

I most certainly and strongly disagree to this !! Coz there is no way in hell a DIY speaker be lacking to show the detail ! and certainly not the one in the question hyeah:!!

What drivers Suri has used in his latest creation is a top of the line Scanspeak Relevator series :clapping: !! which is currently one of THE BEST available ! so I have absolutely no doubt bout its capabilities !

I was trying to find some reasoning, as other variables were same.

I appreciate DIY stuff, I like to build them myself, if I could :sad:

It's fun in building them, but at the same time you maybe aware that there will be some limitation in the final product, if you go to compare with the best of speakers.

You know it takes years of research in designing these "boxes". Otherwise all speakers would sound the same, if only drivers made all the difference.

 

[greenhorn]

have have had problems with cheap RCA's ( < 25 bucks ) which added a lot of hum. slightly better ones solved that. But neither of the cables made the music itself sound better/worse. The difference only being in noise shielding

 

[soundsgreat]

Hi,

That is a very straight forward thing I said, perhaps Suri needs to listen to the cables some more time to notice the difference !

Isn't this like saying "I know you are good...but you know what I mean?"

Now Am not sure what you meant by the above !!

You know it takes years of research in designing these "boxes". Otherwise all speakers would sound the same, if only drivers made all the difference.

Well Well you seems to know the half truth and seems to believe in that soo much that you've made the above statements !!

Yes Box designing is no child's play,I agree with you that it takes some amount engineering to come up with a proper design ! No issues there !

But should that mean that all the brands will have a super sounding speakers ?? coz all the companies spend money and time on it like you said (Although in todays date I hardly see brands investing more then 3months on a new product ) ! but still why only a handful of brands are preferred ??

It's fun in building them, but at the same time you maybe aware that there will be some limitation in the final product, if you go to compare with the best of speakers.

When you say limitation,why exactly you mean ?? And Yes 100% we can and will if needed compare the best of the world speakers against Our DIY !!!!!

I for one Am always ready for such challenges,if you want then please drop and listen to my DIY speakers,if does not sound good to you then I'll talk hyeah:!!

Coming to the point,like you said it takes time to design, Our Buddy Suri here is no exception either !! if you have seen his thread "All my DIY efforts" then you will know how much time and money he has spent on them over the years doing research and development ! so his final design is a result of years of hard work,Am very sure no company will invest the amount of time Suri has put in one design ! As with fabrication of boxes itself,well please do check his thread for the amazing story of this ! the current speakers from him is no mere box ! its a Art an Expression :clapping: !!

So on contrary, I will never compare any damn branded speakers against this master piece !!

I think perhaps a very limited exposure to the DIY has made you make such statements,so request you to check more such stuff and get the true feel of DIY,then you'll know what exactly a DIY can achieve !!

Finally Reju I hope you take this in the right manner,My intention is to show the seriousness of the DIY and nothing more, So if I have hurt your sentiments in any way Am Sorry !!

have had problems with cheap RCA's ( < 25 bucks ) which added a lot of hum. slightly better ones solved that. But neither of the cables made the music itself sound better/worse. The difference only being in noise shielding

Greenie, 25Bucks or even 250Bucks Cables are the ones to expect the change that you mention !! Please check some proper IC and then see how the sound changes hyeah:!!


Regards.

 

[Shuvc]

I found absolutely no difference between interconnects and speaker wire myself, until I got myself some really good speakers. Now, I can detect changes in source materials, speaker wire and interconnects. However, the differences are very minute and require one to listen for them, not standing out at all.

Thanks for that insight and perspective, cranky. For inexperienced, yet kind of logical people like me, it's at times hard to understand extreme adjectives. Eg - how one cable 'kills' another, or how the sound is 'miles' apart ... etc .. Hope you get my drift. Makes me wonder whether my hearing is so bad that I'm unable to make out such obvious glaring differences.
It's easier to comprehend when you say that one needs high end equipment and also needs to know the slight differences to lookout for.

 

[venkatcr]

....... Makes me wonder whether my hearing is so bad that I'm unable to make out such obvious glaring differences. It's easier to comprehend when you say that one needs high end equipment and also needs to know the slight differences to lookout for.

More than high end equipment and such (though they are important), the quality of recording and the type of music you listen to is very critical.

That is the reason why simple vocals and jazz are popular with audiophiles. You have less number of instruments, individual style of singing or playing an instrument, and clarity. When you are listening to a number critically, you must have the least amount of ambient noise, no disturbances, and must free your mind to focus on all aspects of the music. One of the best ways to listen to all aspects of a song, I believe, is to hear a non-MP3 version on a pair of good headphones. If immediately after that you listen to the same song on a system with loudspeakers, you will understand what you are hearing and what is missing.

For me, I usually listen to an album many many times and understand the nuances of the song, the singing, and the instruments before I use it for analysing a system. I know exactly when a guitar starts, when a guitar is 'thwacked', when the drums roll in and so on, when a singer breathes in and so on.

I don't think your hearing is bad at all. It is just that when you listening to analyse a system, the way you listen changes. You are not enjoying the music, but listening for errors and omissions, listening for lack of a note you are certain is there in the album, and so on. You are listening for tightness of drums, looking whether high frequencies are pleasant to your ears and so on.

Cheers

 

[venkatcr]

I agree completely. That is the reason I love albums of Unnikrishnan and OS Arun as they are my friends and I listen to them singing on dining tables without any instruments or such. I also listen to a lot of live shows in the December Music Season in Chennai so that I could understand how music is played. The only issues is most of the artists stick to Hindustani or Carnatic, though last year we had a Jazz group from Sweden. Hopefully this year they will have more foreign artists coming in.

Cheers

 

[moserw]

@Suri - Totally off topic but do you have any website or a blog where you have a virtual display of your speakers and other DIY stuff. If not I believe you should consider it. Over time it can be built up as a storehouse of knowledge that will benefit others and you can even share your tests/results of tests on it. I am sure lots of useful content will be built up over the years (that is if you don't have a website/blog already). If you do then please point me to the URL.

 

[srikarkav]

Hi suri!,

Experiment with truth and finolex as speaker wires? Well the mahatma himself and all the dead audiophiles must be turning in their graveshyeah:

On a serious note can some one explain what goes into the making of a say finolex wire and a decent speaker cable? If the SQ with a speaker cable is superior what makes it so?

cheers,
sri

 

[reju]

Finally Reju I hope you take this in the right manner,My intention is to show the seriousness of the DIY and nothing more, So if I have hurt your sentiments in any way Am Sorry !!

Regards.

No problem. I appreciate DIY, and as I had hinted, I don't know much about DIY speakers. I am not against Suri or anyone. I have also followed his thread and already appreciated his talented work...

You may have put in many years behind those speakers, but it's true that it does not guarantee that you have mastered it, unless you are thoroughly tested/ reviewed etc., by many.

Agreed your speakers may be sounding great, and many may be visiting your place and appreciating your good work, even I would do so if I get a chance, but how many (%) will honestly buy yours (not suggesting that you sell) when pitted against reputed high end speakers.

As speakers are the weakest link in the audio chain, many may not prefer to take any chances here. One may always wonder if he had made out the right difference (like you wanted Suri to do his test again) when judging the speakers? So people will generally rely on reputed manufacturers, than take chances with DIY speakers.

So you maybe really good or you maybe feeling you are best, but unless you are thoroughly tested, reviewed in comparison with other high end speakers, how can I accept your statements?

 

[soundsgreat]

Hi,

Agreed your speakers may be sounding great, and many may be visiting your place and appreciating your good work, even I would do so if I get a chance, but how many (%) will honestly buy yours (not suggesting that you sell) when pitted against reputed high end speakers.

Reju where in the world this came from ?? Are we talking bout DIY Speakers being on par with the branded one's or how many would buy such a product ??? You are trying completely change the track here my friend !! which I quite don't approve of !!

So I Sincerely request you to please stick to one topic !! I Am not and don't want to talk bout whether people buy or not !! I want and Am telling that in no way a diy speaker is less inferior to a branded one

As speakers are the weakest link in the audio chain, many may not prefer to take any chances here. One may always wonder if he had made out the right difference (like you wanted Suri to do his test again) when judging the speakers? So people will generally rely on reputed manufacturers, than take chances with DIY speakers.

Well again very wrong my friend !! there's Abosolutely nothing father from truth then your statements !! In any and every given setup all the components matter the same !!

For Ex: you cannot buy a B&W Nautilus and connect it to a Norge Amp (no disrespect to the brand ) and expect miracles and wonders !! the very same way,you cannot connect the same speakers to a JADIS or Conrad Jhonson Via El Cheapo IC and Speaker cable and wish it were to take you into another world !!

Bottom line, All the things involved in the setup must be chosen carefully and should complement,they should maintain a balance ! then and only then a system is complete ! so all the things involved in the setup has equal amount of importance and none is more weak then the other !!

So you maybe really good or you maybe feeling you are best, but unless you are thoroughly tested, reviewed in comparison with other high end speakers, how can I accept your statements?

Neither Am saying mine is best or Nor do I have such feeling !! but when I say something and that something which is as important as this,I sure will make sure that I have my homework before making any statements or posting comments !

By the way as with comparison, I have infact done all that you speak of and then only have posted here !

My DIY Speakers were compared against the Best of the Speakers One to One and clearly beat them (Some In all aspects and some in most aspects) ! have tested virtually with all the electronics like, QUAD,PS AUDIO,REDWINE,PARASOUND,NAD,DNA McCormick,CREDENCE (A Local Audiophile Brand ) etc etc etc etc even tested with a run of mill Amps like Denon and TEAC !!

So Buddy Am not talking without facts to back me up !! I never have and never will ,I take this very very seriously (although it started as Fun) !! Now don't ask me when and where as some of the owners may object to me publishing such info in public !! some of them are here in this very forum (You know who you are ) !!

Again forget all that,come personally visit and check for yourself !! get complete satisfaction first hand !! then perhaps you'll believe !!

Ok Am very very sorry Suri,I have perhaps hijacked this thread and turned it into Experimenting with Truth DIY Speakers Vs Branded one's !!

So its the last post from me on this topic ! even after all this one is not content and wish to live in their dream world,then Sure DIY speakers are bad,worse ( Please feel free to add the superlatives ) !! And I like all other DIYer's in the world Am a moron talking without facts !!

Regards.

 

[moserw]

My DIY Speakers were compared against the Best of the Speakers One to One and clearly beat them (Some In all aspects and some in most aspects) ! have tested virtually with all the electronics like, QUAD,PS AUDIO,REDWINE,PARASOUND,NAD,DNA McCormick,CREDENCE (A Local Audiophile Brand ) etc etc etc etc even tested with a run of mill Amps like Denon and TEAC !!

I will definitely drop in next time I'm in Bangalore.

BTW just wondering how much did your speakers cost to make (just the price in terms of components, parts, etc. since we cannot really put a price on the time and effort you would have put in) and also how much would the other speakers mentioned cost. I'm just wondering how much of a price difference is there between your DIY stuff and such branded stuff.

Please share if you don't mind...

 

[Shuvc]

I don't think your hearing is bad at all. It is just that when you listening to analyse a system, the way you listen changes. You are not enjoying the music, but listening for errors and omissions, listening for lack of a note you are certain is there in the album, and so on. You are listening for tightness of drums, looking whether high frequencies are pleasant to your ears and so on.

I think this beautifully explains it. I know it for a fact that I tend to focus primarily on the song being played - whatever be the system.

To actually stretch that last point further, the ultimate reference is a live instrument, band or musician. There is (IMO) no better thing to compare to than that. I am blessed with a couple of guitars, interaction with many musicians with multiple instruments and diverse voices, so I can tell how different the recorded material sounds from the original, and mind you I have not yet heard a system or recording that can be so truthful and enjoyable as the real thing, ever.

Do you still perform live? Since you are in Calcutta, I'd love to visit any of your shows (although I haven't the slightest clue what you currently play !). I've been to very few live concerts, but I love the live ambience.

 

[soundsgreat]

Hi,

I will definitely drop in next time I'm in Bangalore.

Most certainly buddy anytime !!

BTW just wondering how much did your speakers cost to make (just the price in terms of components, parts, etc. since we cannot really put a price on the time and effort you would have put in) and also how much would the other speakers mentioned cost. I'm just wondering how much of a price difference is there between your DIY stuff and such branded stuff.

Please share if you don't mind...

Buddy Am sorry but I have not kept the account of the amount of money that I spent ! you have to believe me,you might say "Yeah Alright You Smart Ass" !

But the thing is,in the last two years I've built 5 pairs of speakers !! The 5th being the one Am using currently alone took 6 pairs ( Yes I rejected all 5pairs but the last one) before I could satisfy myself with the overall quality !

Also as you may be aware,Every single damn thing in the speaker is custom made there isn't a single thing that was picked up off the shelf !! That includes Custom Midbass,The tweeter which I made myself (read the thread for more info) with Alu Faceplate and Titanium VC with Double Magent Motor !!The Xover ,The Caps used in the Xover were changed thrice or so to get the desired results !

With all this its damn hard to keep the accounts ! Especially person like me who does not believe in maintaining a diary of sort !!

Hope you understand my friend !

As with the comparision,I will not directly Name as it might lead to new arguments and confrontation !! Will say it was compared with speakers ranging 50K till 250K !!


Ok back to topic please, Btw where is our man ?? seems we've driven him out his own thread and have started something else here :lol: !!

Suri you here by summoned to return to this with immediate effect and post your reply hyeah: !!


Regards.