Opinions on Acoustic Portrait's new Swara Pre and Power Amps
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square_wave
Well-Known Member
The price point of any equipment needs to taken into consideration keeping in mind its performance.
Like Dr Bass mentioned, there are DACs costing in the range - five thousand to ten lakh. What is cost effective is very subjective. It depends at what level one is playing in. This is the first time I have ever seen anyone ever saying AP products are expensive. On the contrary, many folks who actually use them are contented that their money is well spent purely based on their performance.
AP products are designed to perform at a very high level. I personally know folks who use their products along with speakers which are extremely expensive and top tier. These are folks who have been playing the audiophile game for decades. I have never heard classical music ( one of the most difficult to reproduce ) sound as good like on a full AP system.
Opinions are good. But please substantiate it with actual experiences. Try and give us a actual review of the AP Dac against a similarly priced DAC after they are carefully reviewed in a very revealing music system.
Oakley,
Can you please let us know what your observations were ? What was the setup ? What did you compare it with ? Was any other forum members present while you were doing this comparison ? Did you buy it ? Somebodys house ?
Like Dr Bass mentioned, there are DACs costing in the range - five thousand to ten lakh. What is cost effective is very subjective. It depends at what level one is playing in. This is the first time I have ever seen anyone ever saying AP products are expensive. On the contrary, many folks who actually use them are contented that their money is well spent purely based on their performance.
AP products are designed to perform at a very high level. I personally know folks who use their products along with speakers which are extremely expensive and top tier. These are folks who have been playing the audiophile game for decades. I have never heard classical music ( one of the most difficult to reproduce ) sound as good like on a full AP system.
Opinions are good. But please substantiate it with actual experiences. Try and give us a actual review of the AP Dac against a similarly priced DAC after they are carefully reviewed in a very revealing music system.
Oakley,
Can you please let us know what your observations were ? What was the setup ? What did you compare it with ? Was any other forum members present while you were doing this comparison ? Did you buy it ? Somebodys house ?
square_wave
Well-Known Member
To give you another perspective to this whole thing, I have a friend who while maintaining the same pair of very revealing speakers has gone through the following till he reached the AP dac.
1. A 15k cd player
2. A 30 k cd player
3. A well regarded 45k NOS DAC
4. AP dac
Now this friend is a very level headed and educated guy with a very high music sensibilities. Not at all the typical brass knob polishing audiophile. He went through all these in a span of 3 years. Each step was a very big musical upgrade for him. The AP was the pinnacle. After he got the AP, he has since tried a few other DACs in his system. Some of them costing double of the AP. But each time he comes back shaking his head and says with a twinkle in his eye, boy, am i happy that AP is around ! Now look at the DAC from his angle !
I am sure the AP dac can be bettered but believe me; you will end up spending a lot of money to do it.
There are folks who look for different things in a music system. I am not saying the AP products will work for everyone. There are no socks that fits all in this wonderful hobby
1. A 15k cd player
2. A 30 k cd player
3. A well regarded 45k NOS DAC
4. AP dac
Now this friend is a very level headed and educated guy with a very high music sensibilities. Not at all the typical brass knob polishing audiophile. He went through all these in a span of 3 years. Each step was a very big musical upgrade for him. The AP was the pinnacle. After he got the AP, he has since tried a few other DACs in his system. Some of them costing double of the AP. But each time he comes back shaking his head and says with a twinkle in his eye, boy, am i happy that AP is around ! Now look at the DAC from his angle !
I am sure the AP dac can be bettered but believe me; you will end up spending a lot of money to do it.
There are folks who look for different things in a music system. I am not saying the AP products will work for everyone. There are no socks that fits all in this wonderful hobby
Thad E Ginathom
Well-Known Member
Many of the assumptions that are made about DACs and many of the ideas that are encouraged by the people who market them ruffle my feathers, as a consumer, considerably --- as anyone who has read my posts well knows.
However, where a listener chooses to use a standalone DAC, finding it better than any built-in in their CD player, audio player, etc etc, and, especially if they choose to use one DAC for a number of different digital devices, it takes on an importance that I don't think can be over-rated. All else becomes just transport, and the DAC becomes the source.
My premise is that digits are digits, and are all the same up to the point at which they are reborn as real sound. Not all agree with that, but ...well, it's the premise of the point I'm making.
So what's the value of a good source?
(NwAVguy, known to many on this forum, and whose designs have been bought by a few, has a design which is said to be almost completely transparent, and it cost ... Hmmm, less than 90,000
)
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Digits are digits, ones are ones, zeroes are zeroes. Or are they? Perhaps they are, but the way they are processed seem to differ. And therefore what they become in the analog domain differ. In effect not all ones (or zeroes) are equal. Otherwise all digital sources will sound the same.
(NwAVguy, known to many on this forum, and whose designs have been bought by a few, has a design which is said to be almost completely transparent, and it cost ... Hmmm, less than 90,000
What is completely transparent in this context ? It consumes all the bits ? All DACs do.
I feel sorry about this whole situation...there are tons of international brands/diyers/hobbyists who build DACs priced $2k and many times more but when it is done by an Indian in India there is so much scepticism around his product, importantly arising even without a proper listen:indifferent14:. May be because apart from being an Indian he doesnt have a presence in the sixmoons.com ?
iaudio
Well-Known Member
I feel so too. There is a general difficulty among people to accept an Indian hi fi product that costs close to six figures, performance etc notwithstanding.
I have not heard any a-b comparison of the said dac, but it sounded excellent in the set up I listened to.
As somebody uses AP products, I have always felt that they offer excellent value for their price. But again individual opinions vary, so peace!
I have not heard any a-b comparison of the said dac, but it sounded excellent in the set up I listened to.
As somebody uses AP products, I have always felt that they offer excellent value for their price. But again individual opinions vary, so peace!
Kevian
New Member
Why don't you guys start an AP Owners thread? And post your setup pics and share your reviews and experiences with AP?
Marketing of AP products by Mr.Siva might cost him. But it wouldn't cost anything to start a thread like that to AP owners. Such threads are more effective and informative than company website.
Just my thoughts
Kevian
Marketing of AP products by Mr.Siva might cost him. But it wouldn't cost anything to start a thread like that to AP owners. Such threads are more effective and informative than company website.
Just my thoughts
Kevian
What would be the objective?
It would be nice, if at the next Hyd. HFV meet, these products could be demod. From what little I know about Hyd. audio enthusiasts, there would be a small but decent market for these products, especially now with the rupee depreciation that has driven up cost of most imported brands. It is time our home grown brands take the front stage and what better time than this!
I am very interested in auditioning the DAC and will try to do so on an upcoming trip to Chennai.
Cheers,
Sid
I am very interested in auditioning the DAC and will try to do so on an upcoming trip to Chennai.
Cheers,
Sid
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square_wave
Well-Known Member
@DR Bass,
This is exactly the point I was trying to make. All comments on specialized products should be based only on personal experience. I find it very disturbing when people post opinions and comments based upon presumptions.
@Thad,
All DAC designers claim their DAC is the most transparent to the recorded material. To make this discussion meaningful, l would suggest that you do a comparison between NwAVguys dac and the AP in a very revealing system. If you are willing to send NwAVguys dac to any of us in Bangalore, we would very happy to do this comparison for you. Please note that this is not a challenge. All great creative engineers start DIY. There are many such examples on diyaudio.com We may actually have a great design by NwAVguy. It will help the audipphile community as well. What say ?
Lets not talk about theories. That is the domain of the creative engineer. There are very creative designers of Dacs who has spend decades of their life refining this technology. I am not qualified talking about the workings of such designs.
If you still believe that all DACs will sound the same, why dont you do a demo of 5 different DACs at your own home and post back with your experience?
This is exactly the point I was trying to make. All comments on specialized products should be based only on personal experience. I find it very disturbing when people post opinions and comments based upon presumptions.
@Thad,
All DAC designers claim their DAC is the most transparent to the recorded material. To make this discussion meaningful, l would suggest that you do a comparison between NwAVguys dac and the AP in a very revealing system. If you are willing to send NwAVguys dac to any of us in Bangalore, we would very happy to do this comparison for you. Please note that this is not a challenge. All great creative engineers start DIY. There are many such examples on diyaudio.com We may actually have a great design by NwAVguy. It will help the audipphile community as well. What say ?
Lets not talk about theories. That is the domain of the creative engineer. There are very creative designers of Dacs who has spend decades of their life refining this technology. I am not qualified talking about the workings of such designs.
If you still believe that all DACs will sound the same, why dont you do a demo of 5 different DACs at your own home and post back with your experience?
Kevian
New Member
Sorry Capt. if I wasn't clear in my last post. The objective would be to Introduce AP with pics, reviews, shootouts(if any). It is my impression that such initiative will give people like me (who can't audition them in their cities/hometowns) an idea about AP's strengths and weaknesses. Or atleast do the same on Indian Brands thread.
Sid Sir, even if rupee is strong I don't think we'll go for foreign ones if Indian brands have the same or better deliverance in terms of SQ, build quality and components quality.
I second that AP should step in Hyd for next HFV. Last time I spoke to Pdhanwada, he made some good remarks on AP speakers of Tanoj acquired from Capt.
Regards,
Kevian
Sid Sir, even if rupee is strong I don't think we'll go for foreign ones if Indian brands have the same or better deliverance in terms of SQ, build quality and components quality.
I second that AP should step in Hyd for next HFV. Last time I spoke to Pdhanwada, he made some good remarks on AP speakers of Tanoj acquired from Capt.
Regards,
Kevian
just my 2 cents about Siva
Having known Siva and having heard products of his across the years, i sincerely feel he along with folks like Jacob of Rythm and viren are true blue indian high end designers with varying philosophies..but all of them have that confidence in their products based on experience and feedback.
Siva is also a music connoisieur and a hindustani music buff (with a virtual Whos who of performers who know him and have visited him and he has voiced his equipment around )
His products have a certain philosophy..of microdynamics and transparency and have come across after years of refinement of design.
Bingo:thumbsup:
I wonder whose mistake is that to start with. Build a DAC and keep it safely in your home and it is nothing but surprising that no one would buy them. Will you purchase 1L worth of equipment from somewhere far in India without listening to them? How hard is it to have 'one' setup in each metro to start with for a demo?
There is also a general consensus that Indian product makers do very little to market their product. Having a good product is entirely different from making people buy them. The sceptism is in both sides and one side is always forgotten. If, as a manufacturer, you cannot convince yourself that spending money on making people aware of the qualities and value your product offers, you can only expect people to believe in your thought.
As of now, the expectation itself is to sell to people around the place and some die hard fans who would travel distances for demo. And to that extent, it is a success story.
square_wave
Well-Known Member
@Blasto,
There are many audio brands around the world that does not do mass-marketing or indulge in the typical marketing exercises that most main stream brands do. I can give you at least a dozen such examples straightaway. There is a reason why they do not do this. They rely on word of mouth promotion. Words that come from actual users. AP is one of them.
To experience these brands, the potential user has to come forward and take the necessary steps. With brands like these, there is also the additional effort of understanding their philosophy and making sure they really want to go for it. Brands like these want to filter out non-serious buyers by keeping these hurdles. It is a free world after all.
You can address issues like these by a simple email to AP. However, while discussing quality and value for money aspects of the brand, there need to be factual information and presented in the right perspective. Otherwise it will be just another mudslinging exercise.
There are many audio brands around the world that does not do mass-marketing or indulge in the typical marketing exercises that most main stream brands do. I can give you at least a dozen such examples straightaway. There is a reason why they do not do this. They rely on word of mouth promotion. Words that come from actual users. AP is one of them.
To experience these brands, the potential user has to come forward and take the necessary steps. With brands like these, there is also the additional effort of understanding their philosophy and making sure they really want to go for it. Brands like these want to filter out non-serious buyers by keeping these hurdles. It is a free world after all.
You can address issues like these by a simple email to AP. However, while discussing quality and value for money aspects of the brand, there need to be factual information and presented in the right perspective. Otherwise it will be just another mudslinging exercise.
Thad E Ginathom
Well-Known Member
I don't think I've seen anything but praise for AP, and I don't feel that trittya's comment was about anything other than price. Would he not have said the same if this was one of those "6-moons-approved" products?
Not sure that that is entirely correct --- but, every time such a question occurs it sends me scurrying on technical web surfing, trying to understand stuff that I find very interesting but very hard to understand (maths failure, for a start
)I think that transparent is taken to mean it doesn't change the music --- whether assessed by ear or by measurement.
When I saw and heard AP, nobody was talking about prices (or else I missed it) so I was able to listen without such mental interferences. OK, it wasn't covered in a black cloth, one assumed expensive from the look of it, but the numbers were not there to influence me in deciding that it sounded wonderful. I can quite understand that anyone buying into AP might want to do so completely. Assuming the necessary bank balance, there are many factors that influence whether a cheque gets written or not.
I don't! I don't know why anyone should say that. I don't own a stand-alone DAC, but I know that not all sound cards sound the same, so I would hardly expect DACs, being 50% of the same thing, to do so.square_wave said:
I don't have any stand-alone DAC, so I obviously I don't have nwavguy's DAC. This might change next year, as I am interested in the DAC/Headphone-amp combination. His philosophy interests me, and that is often the starting point for actually buying a product. His products are within my possible budget: however much I rave about my experience of them, AP's products are not. Also, as a sound-card man, my material dreams tend to have brand labels like RME and Lynx. Or the $2,000 Phonitor headphone amp. Who would pay $2,000 for a headphone amp? Well... I would, if my bank balance got magically multiplied by ten :lol:
I'm happy (so far
) with my sound card, but I am not happy with its built-in headphone amp, and that is the reason why a separate DAC/amp combination beckons.I believe that all bits are the same. Certainly not all implementations are the same, and categorically the analogue circuitry side cannot be identical. It is possible that even the protocol implementation on the digital side may differ. This is said to be why DACs may sound different with S/PDIFF or USB input: this is entirely believable.
So, I actually see a DAC/sound-card as having the potential to be as individual as a turntable cartridge, which also translates something that makes no noise into actual sound, although please don't jump on me for what I know is a very imperfect comparison of grooves to bits!
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square_wave
Well-Known Member
@Thad,
Alright, then why a comparison with nwavguy's DAC and cynical comment about APs pricing?
Dont we need to do an actual comparison before a statement is made ? How do we know if the price is worth it or not ?
This applies to any product. Not just the AP.
Alright, then why a comparison with nwavguy's DAC and cynical comment about APs pricing?
Dont we need to do an actual comparison before a statement is made ? How do we know if the price is worth it or not ?
This applies to any product. Not just the AP.
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No, not at all. But I would neither consider it unworthy of its price tag without listening.
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