Oppo dvd players available at absolute phase

I mean i dont want these dealers to lose business without being given a chance thats all....

Is paypal common in India? Whoever wants to buy the Oppo, do you guys have a paypal account ?
 
I mean i dont want these dealers to lose business without being given a chance thats all....


I am sure they will take corrective action when survival is threatened. Its not for us to worry about. They will take care.

Regards
 
I mean i dont want these dealers to lose business without being given a chance thats all....

Is paypal common in India? Whoever wants to buy the Oppo, do you guys have a paypal account ?

Honestly, I don't think the dealer would budge enough, they would still want to make extra bucks on the potential customers who are not on this forum and who do not research enough and who want the product instantly (W/O waiting for a week or more), Also from the pure short term business perspective, if losing 30% potential customers vis-a-vis reducing the price by 30% leads to roughly the same bottomline (You could replace 30% with 40 or 50% depending on what your fanatasy price is), so he would take a chance and hope that not too many people would research enough.

Paypal, it should not be an issue with an international credit card (I believe...) and even otherwise, it will be easier for many of us to request a friend in US etc. to pay and order as a gift to be delivered in India on the said website than to expect them to carry the stuff on their next trip for us ;)
 
I hoped that Prithivi or SOM would chime in, but since they didnt here is my opinion on this and I hope they dont mind my doing this. For the record, I dont have any business relationships with either and nor do we sell the Oppo range.
Keep in mind that I speak as both a consumer and a retailer/distributor. The examples that Audiodelic and others have taken are too simplistic, this is not to mention that it perhaps isnt true, in all probability, what he said is probably true but the numbers dont add up when considering what distributors need to do. Dealers are not too involved in the process and are given the MRP set by the distributor and have a bit of leeway in terms of discounts and that is limited to what they can do and has to come from their own margins. So take the case of the Oppo 983 which sells for $400. A distributor needs to take care of service/replacements, marketing, advertizing, promos, etc etc so this cost has to be accounted for, its not free. Then there is shipping and then there are customs duties. Customs duty for one player can be vastly different when ordered at home (under-invoiced, gift, etc) but cant be done when importing from a business point of view. Customs duty is approx 42%, not 22% as stated. The simple reason is that the Indian Gov decided to "protect" the local audio-video manufactureres from competition and belive that a certain portion of the customs duty is a counter-tax (penalty) since we are importing this from outside. While this may be true for a $100 DVD player, we all know that a $400 Oppo player has no local equivalent that one can consider buying. Keep in mind also that the duty is charged over the price+shipping total, not just the price at which Oppo is selling the DVD player. So take all this cost and it becomes your landed cost. On top of this, there are transport charges within the country, inter-state commercial tax which is not insignificant, etc. Dont forget to add spares for service, someone to do the servicing, and transport up and down which is on the dealer/distributor for the duration of the warranty period. I would urge for you folks to calculate all this and see for yourself...and oh yes dont forget to add VAT of 12.5% into this and a dealer to distributor VAT of about 5%.

and finally there is the bitter truth :eek: - I know I am not popular for saying this but I might as well come out and say it -
having been involved in the US market and Indian market now for a bit, the consumer mentality is quite different in both. The percentage of people that I have seen who are willing to pay a premium for better/personalized service is greater in number than the percentage of customers in India who pay extra for better service. Good service is expected to come at the same price as the cheapest vendor - this is the mentality for many, its simply does not work like that. I am not pointing fingers at any one member (you know who you are) but I have been guilty in the past as well (before I saw the business side of things), so this is for all of you to think about and ponder over, no point just blaming dealers/distributors and thinking that they are making a killing, this is BS for the bulk of them out there. You have people who come and take your time to audition equipment, make us bring it over to your place spend hours and in the end order through a friend/cousin who is coming from abroad because its a few thousand Rs cheaper? yes, you are free to do that, as someone in this forum said but obviously from a dealers point of view this cost eventually translates to cost passed on to some other customer, at the end of the day its all accounted for somewhere or the other. Here is another example that will serve as a wake up call -

1. Product A priced in the US for $2000
2. Product B priced in the US for $2500

Product A is available in India for the equivalent of $2200, product B is available in India for the equivalent of $2300, which one will sell better - product B and by a large margin. What most people dont want to see is for the price which is a better product, instead there is an inherent feeling that since Product B is available for cheaper, then the dealer is not cheating them :D I have experienced this now enough times :rolleyes: where people have gone solely by this as opposed to any other reason. Looking at the % difference between US and Indian pricing should not be the motivating reason to buy one. One should buy it because they like it for that price compared to what else may be out there.
As consumers we start with a mindset that we are getting ripped off by dealers selling luxury goods, perhaps in some cases this is true, but not always.
Let me end it by requesting you all to support your local dealer, give them the chance to give you good service, if they dont/cant then its a different thing, but the market will only flourish if customers and dealers work together. If a consumer is only looking at the cheapest price then this stalemate will continue. Take the case of what happened in the US in the late 90's early 2000's - a lot of dealers were hit heavily due to people buying on the internet, since sometimes the vendor they are buying from dont even have stock or a physical warehouse their costs were very low. Many dealers suffered huge losses but there has been quite a bit of resurgence of dealer stores since then as people realized that there is no substitute for going into the store and talking to a person and dealing with a human (manufacturer policies also made this happen).

I hope you all take this in the right spirit

cheers
Odyssey
 
Hi guys, I completely agree with Odyssey. When i was in Bangalore, Sridhar from Odyssey took time off on a Sunday so that i could audition the RWA Sig 30.2 and the Leben 600. Its only a committed dealer who is going to do this. One needs to appreciate that everybody in the chain needs to make some money.

Why do you go and buy rice from a shop? You could very easily go to a farmer and pick it from him. It will work out way cheaper. But for this you will have to go through a lot of inconveniences.

Ditto for any other product. For the convenience and service, one needs to pay. If you do not want to it is fine. But please do not make a hue and cry about it.

BTW, i am just a normal consumer with no links to any audio distributor or dealer.
 
I absolutely agree with Prem and Odyssey regarding the service which the dealers provide and hence the need to pay for it + some margin.

Personally I would not take the demo or extended demos etc. from a dealer if I do not intend to buy from him, but for a lot of us for a number of products go in to buy without auditioning based on the reviews, brand reputation etc. (I personally did the same recently for my denon 2309 and marantz CD 6002, by the way still both from the dealer with bill and at the price where they would make some money as well).



Also regarding the actual service which you get when you buy from a dealer, a lot of us do not have a great experience once the sale is completed (Or even before that if the dealer is not in the mood on that day, the forum is full of such instances). For me when I asked my dealer to send someone from Pro Fx to check the settings etc. for my new 2309 (They had asked me to set it up on my own as they do not make enough margins to support the setup service), they sent someone whose idea of tuning the settings was to make all channels to 0dB! (I had to do my audessy setup all over again after he left !) and when asked about a simple thing like the restore button on the remote (which I got to know subsequently was to do with improving the quality for compressed formats like MP3), the answer was, it is to restore the settings for an external device you have programmed to work with the remote!!. he did not even know how to tune the FM channels etc. On the contrary the service I got for my speakers (With bill From a dealer but not authorized as per the disti ! and at 35% lesser than what the authorized dealer quoted after negotiation), it was awesome, they did everything so neatly, seem to know a lot about music and the systems and were thoroughly professional.

So the point Im making is, that just because you are buying from a dealer does not guarantee you the service (Of course the warranty etc. is there, but have seen a lot of dealers looking for the excuses and fine print to try to charge you for the part which is "not covered" under warranty)

The argument of service and costs etc. need to be linked to some reasonable premium and not 70-100% which is being claimed in this case for a product which a lot of us will just buy if the price is right.
 
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Odyssey, thanks for replying.
If you see my first post, I am not questioning the pricing of the 980. As I've read arguments similar to what you have mentioned here, regarding import costs, earlier in this forum.
My question, the answer to which is still unclear to me, is the reason behind the big difference between the relative pricing of the 980 and 983 in India, vis-a-vis US. Are we saying that the 25-30% difference is solely due to the higher import duty on the higher priced 983? Are there any other costs/heads which are higher, for a $399 product vs a $229 product ?
 
I would also appreciate if someone in the industry explains how the CA DVD99 sells for around 150 in th UK (approx 15K INR) and is offered by the official dealers in India at 14K INR (13K INR after discount).
 
Hi Shuvc

I dont deal with Oppo, dont have any idea about pricing and guessing is only going to lead to problems. All I can say is that you need to factor what I have mentioned in my previous mails - beyond that you should call SOM or an OPPO dealer for answers. Also keep in mind that Oppo may not give the same % discount for one product over the other (980 vs 983), or perhaps the volume of sales expected is vastly different, etc etc <insert reason here> , hence final costs as a function of US pricing can vary. There is no rule that the final price needs to be the same (in terms of % difference)

Regarding CA products, I dont know anything about it and dont have any comment on it, but I can tell you that we price some of our Usher products about 15 % to 20 % cheaper than US retail, you are only referring to a 7% difference. Many reasons go into pricing - what I have mentioned is only a small subset.


cheers
 
Keep in mind that I speak as both a consumer and a retailer/distributor. The examples that Audiodelic and others have taken are too simplistic, this is not to mention that it perhaps isnt true, in all probability, what he said is probably true but the numbers dont add up when considering what distributors need to do. Dealers are not too involved in the process and are given the MRP set by the distributor and have a bit of leeway in terms of discounts and that is limited to what they can do and has to come from their own margins. So take the case of the Oppo 983 which sells for $400. A distributor needs to take care of service/replacements, marketing, advertizing, promos, etc etc so this cost has to be accounted for, its not free. Then there is shipping and then there are customs duties. Customs duty for one player can be vastly different when ordered at home (under-invoiced, gift, etc) but cant be done when importing from a business point of view. Customs duty is approx 42%, not 22% as stated. The simple reason is that the Indian Gov decided to "protect" the local audio-video manufactureres from competition and belive that a certain portion of the customs duty is a counter-tax (penalty) since we are importing this from outside. While this may be true for a $100 DVD player, we all know that a $400 Oppo player has no local equivalent that one can consider buying. Keep in mind also that the duty is charged over the price+shipping total, not just the price at which Oppo is selling the DVD player. So take all this cost and it becomes your landed cost. On top of this, there are transport charges within the country, inter-state commercial tax which is not insignificant, etc. Dont forget to add spares for service, someone to do the servicing, and transport up and down which is on the dealer/distributor for the duration of the warranty period. I would urge for you folks to calculate all this and see for yourself...and oh yes dont forget to add VAT of 12.5% into this and a dealer to distributor VAT of about 5%.


I hope you all take this in the right spirit

cheers
Odyssey

First the disclaimer -
1. I have NO commercial interest in Audio AT ALL. I am but a regular customer.
2. Odyssey and other distributors - I am only NOT trying to counter anything - I am only trying to state what I have learnt - and am willing to correct myself at any time!


The margins in the US, given their operational costs, are entirely different from the margins in India. For example the RETAILER margins in the US tend to be around 40% or more! The distributor margins etc can then be added onto this. Then add your distribution costs, servicing costs, marketing costs, etc. Therefore ANY importer who is an OFFICIAL distributor for India will get this at a fraction of the cost - generally 60% (or more) lesser than the $ MRP. This is further fine tuned - it is country specific and the principal may chose to extend more support in terms of price, marketing support etc - depending on their business plan for India and depending on what their agreement with the country distributor is. Also remember that these products are shipped to India directly from the factory - which most likely is in China - therefore saving more costs in transport and levies in multiple countries, etc. I even know of a few cases where the distributors worldwide have to sign an agreement NOT to sell below the advertised MRP worldwide - I have experienced this first hand.

With all this in mind I honestly do not understand the pricing of the above product, which gets further highlighted by the apparent contradiction in the pricing of the two available models !

Now the customers point of view. As I customer I will look for service - and I WILL look for value! There are a lot of people like me who will not hesitate to pay a few thousand more for the convenience of getting it locally and the promise of support.(However when it comes to warranty claims - all of us have our own stories - and I am not talking only audio here.) BUT the minute you ask me to pay DOUBLE or more , the value proposition suddenly changes completely (as in this case). Given the choice between paying double and hazarding the odd breakdown, a large partisan majority will feel the latter is the way to go!

Secondly - when it comes to service - some of the so called 'grey' dealers give more service than the regular ones - they cant survive without it! I know of a lot of cases where they have replaced the entire piece - no questions asked - and authorised ppl have not. I have not met more than a couple of authorised dealers who knew anything about his products. In short they ad-lib/lie. They will say anything to sell - and this does not inspire any confidence! While I agree this happens in all businesses, we don't have to accept this from anyone! When confronted they always blame it on the 'labour' and high attrition rate. I disagree. If you HAVE to employ someone whose job is to interact with clients - then please DO NOT allow him to interact with clients without giving him the training required, and satisfying yourself that he/she can handle queries. More importantly teach him to escalate the matter when faced with a question he does not have the answer for - rather than ad-libbing and spoiling the name of the organisation. In fact if I am running an AV company I will insist that every dealer of mine has to stock demo pieces of the entire range. I will also insist that they have a proper demo room. The ones that do have, have badly set up systems coupled to extremely indifferent and reluctant staff! If that is their commitment to sales , then you might as well toss the promise of service out of the window! While on the subject I have rarely had a good service experience from any manufacturer - without escalating things to the highest levels. If I have to buy something sight and sound unseen - then I do not need the local dealer - I might as well buy directly!

Lets face it - India IS a price sensitive market. However there are many amongst us who understand and appreciate value ( - when we see it! ) Please give it to us! Go back to your principals - help them understand India. Else, I dare say, you will only be increasing the size of the grey market! (the ones who will take a demo and get it from elsewhere). Finally the customer is ALWAYS Right!

Having said all that, I am sure there are conscientious and committed dealers/distributors out there - may their tribe increase!:)
 
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Absolutely agree,
1)Oppo has an MRP of 400USD, DOES NOT MEAN that the distributer in india buys at that price. The distributor would probably have purchased at around 25-30% markdown on the MRP
2) and as rightly pointed out, most of these products are sourced from china.. so shipping costs from china to US and shipping from china to india should be comparable (ofcourse the volume factor does exist,which should be accounted in a reasonable markup)
3) customs in US and customs in india might be different and so does the transport costs.
All said and done, i would expect a reasonable india selling price of not more than 525USD.
I will buy the 983 at that no more than that price.. Not a penny more.
Regards
Murali
 
Regarding CA products, I dont know anything about it and dont have any comment on it, but I can tell you that we price some of our Usher products about 15 % to 20 % cheaper than US retail, you are only referring to a 7% difference. Many reasons go into pricing - what I have mentioned is only a small subset.

Thanks. In fact when I was posting about CA, I also
had Usher, Wharfedale, PSB etc in mind. There is quite a lot of stuff that 'does not seem to be affected' by the import costs. And some others are. A consumer will quite naturally draw comparisons like the one I did with CA.
From a distributor/dealer PoV, as you said, pricing has many variables, not all of which can be laid bare to consumers. This is justified.
Now given this lack of clarity, the common consumer would also be justfied in choosing the better bargain (import or alternate product). A 100% markup (for whatever valid reasons) may not cut water with consumers who have the option of importing 2 at that price.
Consumers will surely support local dealers if they are convinced of the value in doing so.
 
Yes and no in terms of the actual numbers, its hard to generalize. Putting these kind of numbers is a bit misleading. I dont have any clue about Oppo margins but keep in mind that Oppo works on a reseller model, not distributor model. In that sense those kind of margins wont hold at all. But you have hit upon a problem - what happens (lets assume for arguments sake that the margin is very thin) when a product retailing for a certain price in the US ends up costing say 50% more for the simple reason that the original vendor operates on a very thin margin since this is his model (direct sales perhaps). The person who gets it to India actually suffers since its viewed differently (that a lot of markup is being charged), there is no thought given whether the markup is due to genuine reasons or is it just greed - I understand that there may be no way to check, but this is where your trust/relationship for the dealer play a role.

With this in mind, there are a number of great audio products that we in India are missing out on (since given the margins the end price will be looked upon as unreasonable markup), since as you said its a price conscious market and this argument has no room in our market. Unfortunately, as audio enthusiasts, we are in the end the loser!
We bring in some products that we believe are fantastic (as enthusiasts) even though from a business point of view they dont make that much sense from a pricing point of view. However, we have been lucky that most of our customers have seen them as fantastic products for the money regardless of the slight markup over USD (there are exceptions ofcourse) and bought them. The reason we can do this is that our bread and butter is not in retail and we can still afford to run it so long as we dont incurr a loss, but imagine dealers whose bread and butter is only in retail?

As for stocking the entire product range, even most dealers in the US dont do this, its simply not feasible given how much money is tied up in inventory. The best we can do (even though consumers dont like it) is to keep on display/stock items that are considered the best in their price range.
If I were to think about stocking every component for the brands that we carry, I would have to be making profits in Lakhs a month to just break even on the amount of interest that I pay.


cheers
 
I dont know why I am making the case since I dont even carry Oppo :) , but here goes

So $400, with a margin of 30% is 280. 280 + $50 for shipping? = 330.
$330 x 1.4 = $462. with VAT is $520.
why would you expect a reasonable price of $525. I havent even put in State tax, dealer to distributor tax, etc, no margin included...I am not saying that you shouldnt stick to $525, but why do you think that price is doable with the 30% margin...???


Absolutely agree,
1)Oppo has an MRP of 400USD, DOES NOT MEAN that the distributer in india buys at that price. The distributor would probably have purchased at around 25-30% markdown on the MRP
2) and as rightly pointed out, most of these products are sourced from china.. so shipping costs from china to US and shipping from china to india should be comparable (ofcourse the volume factor does exist,which should be accounted in a reasonable markup)
3) customs in US and customs in india might be different and so does the transport costs.
All said and done, i would expect a reasonable india selling price of not more than 525USD.
I will buy the 983 at that no more than that price.. Not a penny more.
Regards
Murali
 
I agree that perceptions like that are inevitable. The biggest reason we can price our products the way we do (in fact many of them cheaper than $US) is simply as I stated before - Retail is not our bread and butter, its a passion for ARN owner (Syed) and for me, we can do this without incurring a loss. A dealer whose bread and butter is retail cannot survive on the margins that we can. So its not that these brands are not affected, each person has their own reasons why they need to price this way, I agree that its up to each person to draw the line in terms of what they want to spend over $US, I am only saying that this line is a bit harsh and perhaps people need to think about moving this line out to give a bit more flexibility.

cheers


Thanks. In fact when I was posting about CA, I also
had Usher, Wharfedale, PSB etc in mind. There is quite a lot of stuff that 'does not seem to be affected' by the import costs. And some others are. A consumer will quite naturally draw comparisons like the one I did with CA.
From a distributor/dealer PoV, as you said, pricing has many variables, not all of which can be laid bare to consumers. This is justified.
Now given this lack of clarity, the common consumer would also be justfied in choosing the better bargain (import or alternate product). A 100% markup (for whatever valid reasons) may not cut water with consumers who have the option of importing 2 at that price.
Consumers will surely support local dealers if they are convinced of the value in doing so.
 
With this in mind, there are a number of great audio products that we in India are missing out on (since given the margins the end price will be looked upon as unreasonable markup), since as you said its a price conscious market and this argument has no room in our market. Unfortunately, as audio enthusiasts, we are in the end the loser!

I agree. I know of more than one product being given the go-by as non-viable business propositions given the landed costs and the resultant MRPs. However the enthusiast insistent on a particular model will also have other options of getting his hands on it. A lot of grey market operators will get anything you want down for you - in most cases they will charge you a flat rate per kg.


However, we have been lucky that most of our customers have seen them as fantastic products for the money regardless of the slight markup over USD (there are exceptions ofcourse) and bought them.

Personally, I agree. A slight mark-up over the USD prices I can live with. But beyond that I will get it directly.

As for stocking the entire product range, even most dealers in the US dont do this, its simply not feasible given how much money is tied up in inventory. The best we can do (even though consumers dont like it) is to keep on display/stock items that are considered the best in their price range.
If I were to think about stocking every component for the brands that we carry, I would have to be making profits in Lakhs a month to just break even on the amount of interest that I pay.


cheers


Again I agree. Can they not have at least three amps - like you said one each for the low-mid and high end of their line. I repeat I am paying more only for the opportunity to touch,feel and hear what I am proposing to buy - If the dealer cant support me why on earth should I support him?? His business economics are his problem. I as a customer am only interested in Value. Why should I pay more and get it from someone whose contribution has been zilch?! what is the dealers contribution in this case - a telephone call? If I have to buy something sight unseen, then the risk is entirely mine and therefore the returns also had better be mine!

Support is in any case handled by the company direct - at least this is what I have been told whenever I have had a problem. So the dealer has had no role to play there either!

This is a personal view - I have bought a lot of products without getting an opportunity to audition them - and have regretted it at leisure! :p

Lastly, according to me the only way any dealer is going to survive is by doing two things...

1. Having an extensive product line / choice (so that cost is split between the range)
2. Getting into value added services - like designing HT systems and associated interiors, calibration services, audio auxiliary products and services etc. Product margins alone will not pay the overheads!!

I don't know how many of you in Bangalore know of this Electronic appliances dealer called DEVI INTERNATIONAL .You will get the cheapest rates in Bangalore there! He, for example, sells more plasma's than the top three dealers in Bangy put together! (I am a part of another forum - and members must have picked up in excess of some 30-40 Panasonic Plasmas from him in the last one month! (56k for the Panasonic 42" 80D model - without exchange!!) He does not have a swank showroom - I am told he operates from a petrol bunk (maybe his shop is a part of it). But his customers will go only to him! In fact all we have to do is SMS our address - he will deliver and collect! They were willing to deliver in Coimbatore too - but I still chose to pay an additional 2k MORE and picked it up from the local distributor in Coimbatore - So I actually do practice what I preach!:p
 
Another thought. Given the survival perspective. Keep slightly higher margins on stuff that are difficult to import. How many of us would want to import/ship a $1000/15 kg speaker? Even if it costs 30% less abroad?
But a DVD player???
Consumers may also consider resale value. A 40k Oppo (maybe 35-36k after disc?) would sell for what, 10k? After a year or so?
I believe the flexibility you seek is there. Many people do pay extra to buy locally. Maybe based on your experience you are right to say that it needs to be stretched a bit more. However, that is a generalisation. To set the context again, here we are specifically debating the justification for a 100% markup - which would really require incredible flexibility/ignorance/desire from the consumer to buy.
Appreciate your taking the time to respond diligently to the posts.
 
I am already receiving pm's on how to procure Oppo's directly. Sound of music is losing potential business. Tsk tsk wake up boys...customers are not agreeable to getting ripped off.

LEt me know how I can import a cd/universal player.

TIA
 
Something for all of us to remember.

The US or European pricing includes shipping from their manufacturing facility (usually in far east). So, the dealer pricing + manufacturer incentives should be closer to 50% off of the retail. Don't get me wrong, every person in the chain should make a profit, but lets not "assume" the retailer costing model here.

Cameras work this way, why not HT?
 
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