Power Cords - Source Components - Do they make a differance ??

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your pictures are superb and absolutely topical -

but the man seems to be tight-lipped and angry?
 
I may be 'shot' for saying this. But Audiophiles use 'passive' eq's in the form of Cables [power & other wise] to do the job of what an active eq may do... :eek:hyeah:

Now that is the first sensible statement [with due apologies to all] I've heard in a long time. :clapping:
Cables, if they do affect sound, are just glorified tone controls.
 
I think you need to read between the lines...err...... frames ! ;)

hehehe! - should have guessed - because unleash_me is, usually, very very precise with his choice -

all i can say is unleash_me must have -

a fantastic memory to access such photographs and gifs when the occasion demands it!
 
Cranky, don't worry about it dost. It's all a healthy discussion and NOT about my thoughts are better than yours etc. Just let the discussions and posts be. A person who reads them will ONLY have something to gain AND think about.

It's good to have opinions and thoughts....gives EVERYONE a little food for thought....the reason we join these forums.

shaizada and others here,

healthy discussion yes, i dont know where cranky is coming from but if 'shanti' is the same person who i think he is and who cranky thinks he is, it's anything but healthy! cos this person, he has quite a distinctive style of writing am sure its him since many members here who are part of another indian audio forum have recognized him as you can see from the posts. anyway this person had a very 'unhealthy' habit of using double avaatars on a forum. i caught him once asking a question under one name and answering his own question under another name! now why would somebody do that? if you think this is healthy behaviour.... :rolleyes:

a very interesting exercise would be to go through this thread from the first post, note the people who normally make posts here on the forum and take the people left, these will be people who post once in a blue moon. hint hint... ;) would be really interesting if you come up if with just one more name who normally doesnt post but has taken part in this discussion and made a post in favour of 'shanti' or questioned someone else furthering 'shanti's viewpoint. i have my views but would rather keep them to myself since i cant prove anything :)

only the mod can find out by checking ip address of the posts. after all, when one has so many power cords and so much experience why masquerade, making a seemingly newbie post? seems weird to me. but then it takes all kinds to make up this world :D

pretty sad to have such devious minded people potentially messing up this forum too :sad:

regards
 
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shaizada and others here,

healthy discussion yes, i dont know where cranky is coming from but if 'shanti' is the same person who i think he is and who cranky thinks he is, it's anything but healthy! cos this person, he has quite a distinctive style of writing am sure its him since many members here who are part of another indian audio forum have recognized him as you can see from the posts. anyway this person had a very 'unhealthy' habit of using double avaatars on a forum. i caught him once asking a question under one name and answering his own question under another name! now why would somebody do that? if you think this is healthy behaviour.... :rolleyes:

a very interesting exercise would be to go through this thread from the first post, note the people who normally make posts here on the forum and take the people left, these will be people who post once in a blue moon. hint hint... ;) would be really interesting if you come up if with just one more name who normally doesnt post but has taken part in this discussion and made a post in favour of 'shanti' or questioned someone else furthering 'shanti's viewpoint. i have my views but would rather keep them to myself since i cant prove anything :)

only the mod can find out by checking ip address of the posts. after all, when one has so many power cords and so much experience why masquerade, making a seemingly newbie post? seems weird to me. but then it takes all kinds to make up this world :D

pretty sad to have such devious minded people potentially messing up this forum too :sad:

regards

hey stevieboy,

somebody Janus'ed me on another thread! - is this what he referred to- having two avatars on one forum?

you ask - why would a person have two avatars? - there was this true story of "Jane" - multiple split personalities (7 or 8) - there would be conversations between some of these personalities - it is a psychiatric disorder - not amenable to treatment.
 
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hey stevieboy,

somebody Janus'ed me on another thread! - is this what he referred to- having two avatars on one forum?

you ask - why would a person have two avatars? - there was this true story of "Jane" - multiple split personalities (7 or 8) - there would be conversations between some of these personalities - it is a psychiatric disorder - not amenable to treatment.

so basically suri, instead of changing doctors one changes forums? :D

of course i could be entirely wrong and have to eat humble pie if 'shanti' is not bhagwan as others too have identified him to be but then so many people being wrong...? i'd have to distribute the pie to em too! :D
 
hey stevieboy,

somebody Janus'ed me on another thread! - is this what he referred to- having two avatars on one forum?

ah my sympathies. not a very nice feeling indeed. yup that's what i meant, two avaatars acting in collusion.

regards
 
Looks like I wasted my time to responding to this thread :mad:

Thanks Stevieboy, for clearing this
More 'power' to you :lol:
 
I never knew that there was a 'bhagwan' on this forum ?
I have not come across a post by that moniker...
Maybe I will have to look around....
Besides, the moderator should look out for different log in names - monikers from the same ip address, I am sure a lot of 'dual' personalities will come out in the open...
Hello ! Is the moderator listening in ? Following this thread...
We have drifted to 'MPS' here [multiple personality syndrome] !!

If some one can contribute to or in any manner - please do, else we could move on to some other thread; maybe I will....
A forum should help us in our hobby to progress & not get tied down in a God / Bhagwan or the likes. Keep some 'shanti' & try to move on and ahead...
 
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How about this (not mine, another person's experience)???

Welcome to a well known discussion in the audiophile community: the cables !... Audio cables have already been a hot topic for years, but when it comes to power cords, then the polemic is even bigger... Almost everybody knows that the audio cables do make a huge difference.

Most of the people believes that a power cord cannot make a difference, simply because there are dozens of kilometers of electric cable before the AC outlet feeding your equipment ! these kilometers belong to your electricity supplier... so how can a 1.5 meter of power cord make any difference ??? this is not a stupid question !...

To be honest, I have always believed that the "audio grade power cord" or "improved power cord" is a new concept invented by audio manufacturers/distributors to make (even more) money ! and when I see some power cords costing 1.500$********************************, I still believe it ...

But as an engineer and because, when it comes to the sonic performance I have learnt to believe *only* in what I ear, I decided 2 years ago during a particularly cold winter season..., to spend some time on the subject.
And the first thing I did was to replace the original power cord of my THRESHOLD SA/3.9e by a beautiful, white and big power cord containing a RF filter and costing around 250$********************************.

The conclusion was very simple: if I had to pay for it, I would have lost 250$********************************... because the sound was more "compressed", with less dynamic than with the original Threshold supplied power cord.
So, was it time to stop the experience ?
I briefly thought about it, but there was a huge "but": if this particular power cord generated a loss in sound quality, then there is an obvious conclusion: all the power cords are *not* equal !
This was surprising to me because I believed that the mission of a power cord was simply to carry 110V (or 230V depending on the country) to the equipment.
So I immediately thought: if a power cord can be worse than another, then it should be possible to find one that would be better than the original ... pure evidence...

So I started to learn and read some litterature on the subject, and I decided to manufacture my own power cords. The goal was to evaluate if an improvement could be reached with a reasonnable budget.

My study concluded that the important parameters were (from the most to the least important):
the gauge of the cable (particularly when the "power hungry" devices are concerned, eq amps)
the quality of the dielectric
the ground connection and the cable topology
the ground loops management (this will be explained in a dedicated coming article)

Over the pasts years, I have learnt how the manage the last point, but also how to optimize some major components, mainly the CD converters/drives, preamplifier and amplifiers (particularly the Thresholds).

The most difficult caracteristic to fnd when I searched for the raw cable, was to find a cable with a good dielectric. As you may know, the best dielectric is Teflon, but it is hard to find cables with a Teflon dielectric, particularly if you are not ready to order 500 meters, and if you are looking for a relatively big gauge.
Provided that this power cord is supposed to feed power hungry devices (our Threshold amps), I wanted a bigger gauge than the original cable, so I searched for an AWG-12 cable.
Provided that I already knew how to optimize the ground connections of an entire system, I searched for a cable with only 2 wires, as I did not need (and did not want) a ground connection at the device (amp) side.

The best cable I found was the BELDEN reference 83802.


It is an AWG-12 cable, with Teflon insulation, only 2 wires, available in a cryogenically treated version, and having a shield around the cable (this is important when you plan to use cable without connecting the Ground). It is not easy to find at retail, but it is possible (supplier is proposed later on in this article).
The BELDEN 83802 looks like a red and very rigid cable:


The Belden 83802 is an extremely rigid cable...


Its rigidity is not a pleasant point, but provided its other qualities, it not a major problem.
Nevertheless, you have to be aware ot this, because you should try to evaluate the right length of your cable, because it is not flexible enough to stay in a position you would like it to adopt...

The Belden 83802 is an AWG-12 cable. This means that the gauge of this cable is big. You will se later on that this an advantage regarding the dynamics, but this has an immediate consequence: the connectors chosen on the AC side and on the component side must be able to accept the AWG-12 wires; and this is not so common...

But before talking about connectors, let's talk about the cable topology. I do not say that this topology is the best one (I know it does not), but I strongly believe that you will have (very) hard time trying to find a better power cord at a comparable price !...
If you find one, let us know what it is !

The cable presented is primarily used for our THRESHOLD amplifiers which prefer to not have a ground connected. Remember the warning at the begining of this article: your HiFi equipment should be connected to the Ground...
I am not going to explain why this topology is chosen, but this is the one that has provided us with the best results on our power amplifiers.

In addition to the raw BELDEN 83802 cable; you will need a few additional parts:
a cable sleeve, with an approximate internal diameter of 1 cm; a cable sleeve can be found almost everywhere... This cable sleeve gives a professional look and finish to your cable. Although it is not mandatory with this non grounded cable, it does for the grounded cables (more to come in another coming article).
a few centimeter of shrink tube, let us say 10 cm per cable; this shrink tube will be use at both ends of the cable to fix the cable sleeve and the cable together.

Finally, you need an AC connector and an IEC connector. Provided that most of you will not change the original IEC male connector of your equipment (*), you have a lot of choice for these connectors, from the supermarket low cost lodels, to the "audio grade" ones.

(*): 99.9% of the devices use a 15A IEC connector, but be aware that it does exist IECs able to handle more than 15A. However, you have to change the male IEC in your device for a bigger model, and this may be a little complex. When it comes to the THRESHOLD amps, it is amost impossible because of a lack of space. In addition, you would have to make a bigger hole at the IEC emplacement: it is not easy to access it, and... making a hole in a THRESHOLD amp (thick) plate is not a piece of cake !

Forget the "supermarket low cost" connectors, at least because your amp needs power, and these connectors are most of time too crap...
I have tested the same cable with a "robust but not audio grade connector" as well as with 2 audio grade connectors: the FURUTECH FI-E11 AC connector and a WATTGATE IEC connector.

Now, it is time to talk about the most important:

How does this cable sound ?

The review of this cable has been done by comparing this cable to the original manufacturer cable (Threshold, Counterpoint, Jadis).
The following devices have lessoned with their original cable and then with this cable:
THRESHOLD SA/3.9e stereo Class A amp,
THRESHOLD SA/6e monobloc Class A amps,
THRESHOLD T2 upgraded version preamp,
COUNTERPOINT DA-10 new version DAC,
COUNTERPOINT DA-11 Transport,
JADIS JP80MC preamplifier.
in the configurations described in our reference system #1 and system #2.

So what are the differences ??

In everycase, the improvement over the original manufacturer cable was huge. Not a small difference, but a big one !

How can a 1-2 meter of AC cable make a so big improvement whereas there are dozens of kilometers of energy provider's cable before the AC outlet ??? I simply do not know ! but the difference is so big, that even your wife will ear the difference ! ...(sorry for our female members !)

More dynamic, less noise, more air, more definition, etc.... It is much better in every domain.

Another point to know is that the impact of the improvement is not the same on all the devices:
very big improvement on power amplifiers
big improvement on preamplifiers
mid improvemenr (but improvement anyway) on DAC / Transport.
So we recommand you to proceed first with your power amp(s) and preamp.

And what about the connectors ?

Well: the look is obviously much more pleasant with the FURUTECH-WATTGATE combo. In addition, having these connectors in your listening room is obviously a way to be seen as "an expert"...
But when it comes to the sound, honestly the difference is so small, that we do not know if is better with or without them !
So given the high price of these connectors, you should consider them as an option, but nevertheless, do not use very cheap connectors (try mid priced ones).

cheers.
murali (just settling in)
 
If some one can contribute to or in any manner - please do, else we could move on to some other thread; maybe I will....
A forum should help us in our hobby to progress & not get tied down in a God / Bhagwan or the likes. Keep some 'shanti' & try to move on and ahead...

p.s. Have you ever wondered where the 13 power cords are used ? In 1 audio set up. 2 channel i.e. ???? Or maybe that is not of much use to you, doubling up as a 'shrink' or a 'sherlock holms' make [sorry - this line can be striken down] !!:p

i dont see you contributing anything! you've started a thread that very clearly misled people into thinking you were a newbie. then in the middle you suddenly show off your true colours, saying you have 13 power cords and 5k cds. not once have you bothered to make a detailed post listing out the power cords and what equipment you have listened to them with cdp/amp/dac so people could learn about the differences in sound. so what 'contribution' are you talking about?

as for discussing this topic, if you were straightforward i'd consider it but even then, considering its such a yawn done to death topic that i'd rather stay clear unless it's a genuine newbie who wants some opinion or pointers for him to research further. now that would be 'contributing' which you're not doing and its plain to see for all judging by your initial post and those who replied thinking you are a newbie. newbie? ha :lol:

generally when people 'contribute', they post their experiences so people can learn and not some blanket statement that 'i have such and such power cord'. if you want to know the meaning of 'contribute' look at murali's last post. now that detailed post is a contribution one can ponder over, discuss for or against or pitch in with one's own experience for or to the contrary.

regards

ps if you dont see 'bhagwan' do look more closely at all the people who have hinted in their posts and quite clearly mentioned the word 'bhagwan'. your avataar in another forum where a few of us know you from.
 
Alright,

i will contribute -

@ shanti - how do you use the 13 AC power cords?

for the life of me, i cannot figure this out-

two? - even five/six- but thirteen? even on friday (my lucky day) i will not figure that out!

so, you use all 13 for what?

regds
 
your 'neutral' views on this 'live' subject are welcome :D Hiten

Well, this is not exactly neutral, but I really liked Howard Johnson's following reply:

Ernie: Ive heard that a good power cord aligns the flow of electrons into your equipment for maximum performance.

Howard: What? That whole idea is bonkers. The mean free path for electrons in copper is about 0.039 microns. Electrons are constantly slamming into something and changing direction. There is no aligned flow. Only superconductors can do that. The only super thing about an OFC power cable is the profit margin.

The guy is a PhD and would hopefully know what he is talking about.

The hassle with subjecting listening as was proven in the Secrets article is that different people will come up with different answers to the same song. This depends upon a lot of things - age, familiarity with the song, memory, etc. This evening, I was listening to 'Ennavale Adi Ennavale' on the radio of all the things when I was driving back. I heard a small bell going 'ting' in the first stanza, that believe me, I had never heard before. So I rushed home, played a good CD copy I have, and did hear the ting. How did I miss it all this time, and I have heard this song some 500 times?

Another factor, I think, is the need to hear a difference when you spend a sizeable amount or switch something. Psychological? Possibly. Maybe it is just your mind that is telling your something.

All these are grey areas and best left alone. For me, as long as the power cord sends a steady 220 volts at 50Hz to the other end, I am happy. I will let the electronics of the source and the amplification handle the other requirements. This is valid till I either see a scientific explanation of how cryogenic-ally created cord is better at transferring 220 volts over 6 feet, or hear the difference myself. I do believe I have an open mind.

Cheers
 
Hi all,

Although I have my personal views on all kinds of cables, but I am sorry to say that I will not contribute very much on healthy part of the discussion on the cables.

I have been watching the happenings in this thread from the sidelines, but am now stepping in to say that the developments have seriously hurt me, and yes, personally, even though I did not participate.

However, whatever has happened will always happen when equipments take centrestage instead of music, the very reason the equipments are for.

In this forum, generally speaking, we respect each other in a certain way. There can be very heated discussions and I have taken part in some of them, however, the great reason I love this forum (as opposed to some other forum I have visited in the past but never have been a member thereof), we never question in a derogatory way the other person's exposure or experience. There are many people in this forum who help absolute newbies from ground up while absorbing very patiently queries and even doubts (at times even sarcasm) arising from their inexperiences. I think this forum believes in a sense of inclusion. And that's why I have seen many newcomers starting from scratch and gradually maturing into this hobby. I can name many who have gone through this transition in the last 2-3 years.

The other reason I love this forum is that we also discuss music here, and at times we have had very serious discussions on music. We have not forgotten why we are in this for.

Why should we have a thread started with queries about the role of power cords while the TS himself/herself has 13 high-end power cords and already holds a strong view about it? Is there an explanation? If the TS is confused about all the cables he/she has and that's why the query or just wanted to know if others backed up his/her views, then why is the TS then later on dismissing other people's views? If the TS does a proper search in this forum, he/she would find that in the last 6-8 months there were at least 3 places where the possible passive equalization aspect of cables in general was discussed, and this possibility was not just presented as a phenomenological fact, in addition plausible scientific explanations were also given.

Let us keep the dignity of this forum in tact wherein we do not ever say the other member is 'not exposed'. How much do we know about others? Let us not make judgement on others' experience and exposure. As long as we are expressing our independent views in a fair and non-commercial manner, we should be doing fine.

I am just an ordinary member and of course have no more power than any other member. I am just expressing my very personal view.

Regards.
 
Wow - this is what I call - and is popularly know as IMHO " as a bait and switch" thread wherein the poster acts as a newbie and then suddenly reveals himself to be an advanced user. As I read thru the thread - the poster first asks if different power cords make any difference in sources and then suddenly posts that he has 13 or 15 power cords and that he can tell the difference. Then pray why ask the question in the first place? Just to be sadistic? Just to see how some members respond so they can be slammed? Anyone of you seen the movie "the color of money" - that's what this reminds me of. Now I am greatly humbled and respectful of what one posts here in the sense that there may be hidden agenda down the slippery slope of threads:sad: Not that I am against healthy discussion - but this seems to be taking it a bit too far. Hope this gets cleared up. Again nothing personal but disturbing at the same time.
Cheers
Sid
 
Power Cords

Do these make any differance on Source Components ?

What brands are 'good'

How much should one spend on them ?

Where to buy them from ?

Thanks.

This was the initial post;

What was so wrong in what I asked in June, 2009 ?

Please do shed some light...
I seem to have missed the point...

I asked 'legit' questions ?
I needed to know what cords are good ?
Who sells what in India ?
People that use mid fi & hi fi audio gear may be using power cords & if they have used, what have they used & what their experiances have been ?

I do not see anything wrong in this.
If the mod sees any thing that is out of line, I am sure he can get it removed or the entire thread if that is the general concensus.

I could back down, but I seriously do not see anything wrong.
Besides, I [shanti] have never posted under any other name apart from Shanti on this forum.
I write on many international forums & may or may not use the same moniker at all times & there is no crime in that - at least in my opinion...

:)
 
Dear Murali,

Thank you for a long and detailed post. It made interesting reading.

Do you sell this power cord ? Possible to audition it ?

Surprisingly, my personal experience has been that the Power Cord makes the most dramatic change when connected to the CD player.

Would love to try your cable, with 15 Amp ( not 20 Amp ) IEC termination for my equipment.

Also looking forward to your further postings on this.
 
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