POWER GAMES:Servo Stabilizer,CVT or Online UPS?

[ajay124]

I gues venkat is right on all counts and it does not make sense to keep the amp powered on all the time. Perhaps it is required in countries close to the North Pole like Canada, Norway, Sweden or Finland.

In any case my Bryston Pre/Power amps do not have standby switches. They would have to be kept fully powered on. Maybe some recording studios in Canada and James Tanner can afford to it. But me :sad: No way!

But I have started keeping the online UPS on standby mode instead of switching it off every night.

 

[anm]

Hi - could these UPS be current limiting - ie would they max out on some ampere level, even if the load is within VA limits? Do high current amp request more current from the power line in case of dynamic passages, or use internal storage of capacitors?

Thinking more, aren't even the power lines current limiting? 5A, 16A, 20A is the rating of power lines.
Not sure if this is a correct question to ask but is there a possibility that current requirement of amp is not met by the online UPS.

 

[Dressel]

I am immensely thankful to AJAY & all the respondents of this POWER GAMES thread.
I suffered badly last week.. Due to ignorance, overconfidence or whatever you can blame to .
I am in hifi for more than 10 yrs now both A&V But never bothered to protect my equipments

last week there was some problem with neutral wire on the pole that gave me kick on my butt ..
The voltage fluctuations killed my power supply to turn table, & phono.& plasma TV

I was desperately looking for some solution & I came across your thread.
the material I got was really exhaustive. I read thro it care fully & finally booked the EMERSON LIEBERT GMT XT+ 3000
THANK YOU ALL .
& especially AJAY124 for starting & pursuing this informative thread.

 

[arj]

Hi - could these UPS be current limiting - ie would they max out on some ampere level, even if the load is within VA limits? Do high current amp request more current from the power line in case of dynamic passages, or use internal storage of capacitors?

Thinking more, aren't even the power lines current limiting? 5A, 16A, 20A is the rating of power lines.
Not sure if this is a correct question to ask but is there a possibility that current requirement of amp is not met by the online UPS.

anm, while all amps power rating are in RMS, the dynamic,peak power could be 2-3 times that.so 3x max power need should keep you safe.

i do not think current limiting would bea problem for most of our amps...but if someone is using one of those Behemoth Mark Levinsons..it is very possible it can run out of steam

 

[Asit]

i do not think current limiting would bea problem for most of our amps...but if someone is using one of those Behemoth Mark Levinsons..it is very possible it can run out of steam

Arj,

I have never understood this point, raised by many experienced folks in this forum. My point is, even without any servo/UPS/power-conditioner etc, the max power (max current at a given voltage) is always limited by the hardware on the wall socket (usually 15 or 16 Amps etc) and the maximum current ratings of the cables used. There is also a maximum power consumption given in the specs of each equipment including amps. Amps are to be plugged into power sources (wall or any other device like UPS etc) which can handle the max requirement comfortably. The high instantaneous currents delivered by the amp comes from the power reserves of the amp and is handled by the power supply section of the amp which consists of the transformer and the capacitors in that section. Hence I never understood statements like 'I never use any power conditioner or devices of that kind for my amp. The high current requirements of my amp cannot be met by these devices, and I always plug them directly into the wall sockets'. In the light of what I have written above, can somebody explain statements like the above?

Regards

 

[anm]

thanks Asit. I wanted to ask the same thing but you phrased it very well.

 

[borg]

unless the the amp got unlimited capacitance ,it can be affected if the source dips due to high current demand. With that logic if one have a "stiff " power source it should help sound quality
BUT i am not sure how resolving once system and how sharp one's ear need to distinguish SQ degrading due to higher source impedance(AC power source i meant not music source).

 

[josephjohnt]

I am immensely thankful to AJAY & all the respondents of this POWER GAMES thread.

Very true, my learning from this thread was great, many new things were discovered MOV,SPD etc.

Kudos to Ajay.

 

[ajay124]

dressel, josephjohnt

I am happy that you found Power Games useful I certainly did. When I began this thread I had no idea about most of the stuff mentioned here. The credit goes to all the forum members who chipped in with their knowledge.

I have felt very secure about my hifi components since I bought the online UPS. That's a hige amount of insurance for 27.5 K! But more than the security angle, I am ECSTATIC about what it has done for the sound quality. I feel that with my present set up this is the cleanest sound I can get.

A few weeks ago I connected all the components to the Belkin surge protector which I had been using earlier. The surge protector was connected to a power socket which was NOT getting power from the UPS. The sound became harsh, hollow and mundane. I next connected the surge protector to a power socket which was getting power from the online UPS. The sound improved, but it was still grainy, harsh and not very pleasing to the ear. My conclusion was that both the surge protector and the untreated power supply were degrading the sound substantially.

 

[arj]

Arj,

I have never understood this point, raised by many experienced folks in this forum. My point is, even without any servo/UPS/power-conditioner etc, the max power (max current at a given voltage) is always limited by the hardware on the wall socket (usually 15 or 16 Amps etc) and the maximum current ratings of the cables used. There is also a maximum power consumption given in the specs of each equipment including amps. Amps are to be plugged into power sources (wall or any other device like UPS etc) which can handle the max requirement comfortably. The high instantaneous currents delivered by the amp comes from the power reserves of the amp and is handled by the power supply section of the amp which consists of the transformer and the capacitors in that section. Hence I never understood statements like 'I never use any power conditioner or devices of that kind for my amp. The high current requirements of my amp cannot be met by these devices, and I always plug them directly into the wall sockets'. In the light of what I have written above, can somebody explain statements like the above?

Regards

Hi Asit,
I understand your problem and it is something i could not understand ,uch eithereither... what i have tried to analyse and understand is below
15A is too high a current from any sane audio device, so it really does not affect amp owners like you and me..in fact i dont see any amp needing more than 5-6 amperes ( ?)
the problem i see is Dynamic current and the capability to be that source which can give the required current at the very instant the amp needs it...and this is what i believe makes a difference in the Dynamic capability of any source.
it may more of a time domain requirement of the instant current henc if the amp needs 1.5A at that instant gets only 1.45A at that instant and is 1.5 millisecond too late...the sound will suffer

I beleive many power conditioners might just introduce that lag..so do many power cords and hence making thesound "Smooth". thats perhaps why Finolex is a great cable for power amps and into power distributors
Disclaimer: many many years ago I could claim to be an electrical engineer..but having been tainted by a management degree and may years of work in a totally non-related field..all of the above could very well be a ramble

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I have never understood this point, raised by many experienced folks in this forum. My point is, even without any servo/UPS/power-conditioner etc, the max power (max current at a given voltage) is always limited by the hardware on the wall socket (usually 15 or 16 Amps etc) and the maximum current ratings of the cables used.

No, it is not limited by either of those things at all. They only indicate the maximum safe current that can be drawn from that socket. After that, stuff melts and catches light --- which is, I suppose, a kind of limiting.

And the rating is, for that very reason, intended to protect your house cabling, not the equipment attached to the sockets.

 

[sud98]

Forgive my stupidity, but wont circuit breakers get activated if the voltage goes up to greater than 240?

 

[Asit]

Yes, they would, sud98, once the current drawn would be more than 15 or 16 A, and that's why I still have not understood what the folks are saying here.

Regards.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Circuit breakers will trip when the current drawn through them exceeds their rating. They are probably more sensitive than wire/cartridge fuses, but I think they may tolerate a short spike?

 

[Asit]

Nope.

Not for the instantaneous current requirement for the amp. It's got to be microsecond or smaller, I'd think.

Regards.

 

[dovin]

I have a Yamaha DSP A1 (500 W) and a Hsu Subwoofer Amp (1100 W) both requiring 120v power supply. I wanted to buy a solution that would condition the power, have surge protection and also step down to 120V. After some research I located a small company called MAKSON ENGINEERS in Borivilli, Mumbai. (Pls PM me for contact details). It is a small but very professional setup. I visited their shop floor. It was very clean and dust free, open chassis showed well laid out components and interacting with their engineers I felt confident they knew their job well.

I initially wanted to buy a CVT, but after describing my requirements and taking their advice, I finally got a 3 KVA online UPS and a separate isolation transformer (step down). Since I did not go in for frequency conversion (they could do it too, but too costly), I made them give me 3 tappings for the step down transformer, at 110, 115 and 120V. This is because I read that if your amps run hot in 50hz, then reducing the voltage a bit helps.

The key thing for me is that, I found a company that was willing to produce a custom built solution for me based on my requirements, with good components and good quality. The final body finish is not as shiny as some branded products, but I'm very happy to know the insides are well designed and that I can call them any time I have a problem or needed modifications. For eg: they can change the UPS parameters (output voltage etc) by simply tuning it with a software from a PC.

I've used the product for a month now and so far it works very well. The step down transformer is absolutely silent, no hum at all. The UPS is silent, but the fan is quite busy. Every time the load goes up, the fan goes into overdrive. So its not good to keep in the same room as the AV equipment. I installed it near the mains in the line that goes to the AV room.

The total cost came to Rs 29,500, which I thought was not bad considering both UPS and the Isolation step-down transformer are rated 3 KVA each.

If you are in mumbai and looking for a custom solution for UPS, sbatilizer, step down transformer etc, I would strongly recommend that you talk to MAKSON too.

regards,
Dovin

ps: Both my amps have no issue at all with 120v/50Hz - Absolutely no hum or running hot, so the 3 tappings were not needed in the end.

 

[amol12]

I have a Yamaha DSP A1 (500 W) and a Hsu Subwoofer Amp (1100 W) both requiring 120v power supply. I wanted to buy a solution that would condition the power, have surge protection and also step down to 120V. After some research I located a small company called MAKSON ENGINEERS in Borivilli, Mumbai. (Pls PM me for contact details). It is a small but very professional setup. I visited their shop floor. It was very clean and dust free, open chassis showed well laid out components and interacting with their engineers I felt confident they knew their job well.

I initially wanted to buy a CVT, but after describing my requirements and taking their advice, I finally got a 3 KVA online UPS and a separate isolation transformer (step down). Since I did not go in for frequency conversion (they could do it too, but too costly), I made them give me 3 tappings for the step down transformer, at 110, 115 and 120V. This is because I read that if your amps run hot in 50hz, then reducing the voltage a bit helps.

The key thing for me is that, I found a company that was willing to produce a custom built solution for me based on my requirements, with good components and good quality. The final body finish is not as shiny as some branded products, but I'm very happy to know the insides are well designed and that I can call them any time I have a problem or needed modifications. For eg: they can change the UPS parameters (output voltage etc) by simply tuning it with a software from a PC.

I've used the product for a month now and so far it works very well. The step down transformer is absolutely silent, no hum at all. The UPS is silent, but the fan is quite busy. Every time the load goes up, the fan goes into overdrive. So its not good to keep in the same room as the AV equipment. I installed it near the mains in the line that goes to the AV room.

The total cost came to Rs 29,500, which I thought was not bad considering both UPS and the Isolation step-down transformer are rated 3 KVA each.

If you are in mumbai and looking for a custom solution for UPS, sbatilizer, step down transformer etc, I would strongly recommend that you talk to MAKSON too.

regards,
Dovin

ps: Both my amps have no issue at all with 120v/50Hz - Absolutely no hum or running hot, so the 3 tappings were not needed in the end.

How many batteries and of what rating does the online UPS require? I am assuming the cost of batteries is not included above.

 

[dovin]

True, only 1 in-built battery which gives a few minutes backup. But the UPS is connected to inverter output, so I just need the UPS to keep power supply going only for less than a second while inverter switches over.

Still I think the basic cost of a 3 KVA UPS (with one battery) and a 3 KVA isolation transformer combined would normally go above 29000/- if bought from a branded source, not to mention the direct support from manufacturer for those in mumbai. Somebody mentioned around 6K per KVA for Isolation transformer (????) - which will make it 18000 for that alone, without the UPS ??

I haven't really shopped around as I settled for Maskon when I saw their place and talked to the people and comfortable with the price. So this may not be the best price in the market. I liked the way they interacted with me, may be I fell for the salesmanship too, who knows.

ps: They have given an option to connect external batteries in the future if I want so that this can be a stand alone UPS with backup - even without the inverter. I haven't gone into how many batteries yet, I'd assume 4-5 12V batteries for 4 hr backup based on my inverter that has 15 12V batteries for 10 KVA for 4 hours.

 

[matbhuvi]

^^ That's a really good price. I checked a microtek dealer nearby. He has quoted 54K for a 3KVA UPS with 4 batteries.

 

[Jude]

Hi Dovin,
Quick question , how good r the products, online ups and isolation transformer from Makson . You have been using them for some time now how good is the after sales service ? I need isolation transformer. Kindly advice .

Thanks,

Jude