Schiit Yggdrasil closed form DAC

[prem]

If the Schitt Yggdrasil needs to be kept powered all the time, I think it's a non starter in India, especially considering the kind of power supply we have

 

[Nikhil]

Lots of posts emerging on Computer Audiophile, including on Gungnir Multibit. Interesting as opposed to Headfi, people are changing from other DACs (in head, I got the feeling that lots were upgrading from junior Schiit models, though I may be wrong).

Nikhil, are you going to pull the plug and go for it?!!

Very tempting to get one for a listen! I just got my Lampizator Amber so will wait for the dust to settle. I already have a PCM DAC in my AP so not very inclined to go for another 24/192 DAC. I'm following the discussion on CA so will see what comes of it. From what is going on over there right now the Yggy seems to be the greatest thing since sliced bread.

 

[Nikhil]

If the Schitt Yggdrasil needs to be kept powered all the time, I think it's a non starter in India, especially considering the kind of power supply we have

Prem, it just sounds better when it stay plugged in for a long time. Somebody mentioned about keeping it on for a week as a sort of burn in before it starts sounding really good. But yes that's something we folks are going to have trouble with here.

 

[prem]

Hi Nikhil, you know how it is. If it's supposed to sound better powered on all the time, we are going to do it, right

 

[Nikhil]

Hi Nikhil, you know how it is. If it's supposed to sound better powered on all the time, we are going to do it, right

LOL! You know I had bought my UPS with that grand idea in mind.
Thanks to our electricity bills I found out quickly that it's cheaper for me to buy a few new tubes every once in a while than to leave my rig powered on 24/7.

 

[vivek_r]

The Mutlibit Gungnir may be a decent option as well. Not sure if it is also "power hungry'.

I really like this trickle down stuff! 10Y malt, 18y malt etc!

 

[jai1611]

The Yggdrasil consumes about 30w of power. Leaving it powered on for the whole year will consume about 260 units of electricity. Even at Mumbai's extortionate pricing, its about Rs3500/year (lower in other cities).

The bigger problem is the quality of power. I had a vintage Assemblage which got knocked out beyond repair with a late night power surge. To me that experience makes the Yggdrasil a no-go.

 

[asliarun]

Can anyone shed some light on what makes this DAC unique? What exactly is this close formedness? And is this (the output filter algorithm) the only difference between this DAC and other high end R2R DACs?

There is surprisingly little info about this.

 

[vivek_r]

Hi, try this (post 22)

Delightful DAC Week :~)

Nice without resorting to too much geekery!

 

[bornfi]

Can anyone shed some light on what makes this DAC unique? What exactly is this close formedness? And is this (the output filter algorithm) the only difference between this DAC and other high end R2R DACs?

There is surprisingly little info about this.

I am not that good technically but let me present an analogy using pi (22/7). When you do this, the number after the decimal does not end and for your purpose you decide how many digits after the decimal you want to use. So, what Yggy has is a closed form mathematics, there is no guessing at all. They say they can present exactly what was recorded.

btw, good to see folks from India.

Though I live in USA currently, I could understand the frustration of not able to audition these products because I too had started my hobby of hifi in India with set NAD's amplifier and CD player.

I have the Yggy; had Gungnir for 5 months prior to which, had Bifrost for 10 hrs.

Feel free to send me your questions; I will try my best to answer them If you could also tell me about your gears, would help me in relating my answers from your perspective.

 

[GeorgeO]

Nikhil

I agree about power bills shooting up when using these UPS units. Ive got 13KVA on line + an inverter at home and yes the power bills each month nearly make me cry!

 

[audiodelic]

@bornfi:
What are the rest of the components in your system hooked to the eggy

 

[bornfi]

@bornfi:
What are the rest of the components in your system hooked to the eggy

Connected to Karan Acoustics KAI MkII, Tekton Design Pendragons. Speaker cables are 6AWG solid core copper and XLR interconnects are from Mogami.

 

[bornfi]

Karan Acoustics KAI MKII, Tekton Design Pendragons

 

[rajagopal_j]

I am not that good technically but let me present an analogy using pi (22/7). When you do this, the number after the decimal does not end and for your purpose you decide how many digits after the decimal you want to use. So, what Yggy has is a closed form mathematics, there is no guessing at all. They say they can present exactly what was recorded.

That is incorrect. Closed form in mathematics means that you can express something in a finite number of steps or finite number of items or finite number of solution, etc. For example you can solve a quadratic equation in a finite number of steps, so a quadratic expression is a closed form expression. Contrarily a divergent sequence is not closed formed. Similarly you have closed form functions and solutions, etc etc. In fact the definition of closed form is not closed form .

But you are right in what you are conveying though. The yggdrasil doesn't loose information which exists in the original sampling.

What it has is a Closed form digital filter. All dacs have a digital filter to smooth out noise, especially when the bit rate of the original data is low in other words the noise floor is high. There is more noise generated due to timing issues/clock we know this as jitter and more when you use a interface designed for data for eg: usb. Every DAC is equipped with a digital smoothing filter to remove this noise. When applying this filter there is some loss to the original music itself. The smoothing algorithm will choose to ignore some sampling points to ensure a smoother/optimal curve.

In the case of the schitt Yggdrasil, the closed form digital filter has a closed form solution which ensures none of the original sampling data is lost in the process of noise smoothing, In their words.

"This means it retains all the original samples, performing a true interpolation"

Please remember when the curve you are plotting is not finite and you are constructing it from data, any interpolation is guess work. What they have managed is to be able to plot with all available data being used (original sampling).

The yggdrasil also upsamples at the same time as noise smoothing. There is defintely guess work there.

What we can say for sure is, that their solution would be the closest to what was there in the original data.

There is a gentleman here in Chennai, a headphones enthusiast, who owns a Yggdrasil. I just haven't found the time to go and have a listen. I should find the time soon.

 

[panditji]

Dear Bornfi, How much of a step up is the Yggy over the Gungnir? Is it worth the extra dollars for the increase in quality? Also were you able to compare it with the Gungnir multi bit?

 

[Nikhil]

Mike Moffat chimed in at CA earlier today on the Closed Form Math ...

Excerpt below from Delightful DAC Week :~) - Page 4

Please pardon the below shameless product design mugging; I promise that it will clear up closed form math questions. Incorporated in the Yggy and also in the new multibit Gungnir - The Schiit Footlong Mega Combo Burrito Digital Filter:


It is a digital filter/sample rate converter designed to convert all audio to 352.8 or 396KHz sample rates so that it may drive our DACs. You get it uniquely from us; it is our filter. It took five people many years to design and perfect at the dawn of digital playback, way back in the early eighties. It keeps all original samples; those samples contain frequency and phase information which can be optimized not only in the time domain but in the frequency domain. We do precisely this; the mechanic is we add 7 new optimized samples between the original ones.


All digital filters multiply the original audio signal by a series of coefficients which are calculated by a digital filter generator. Over the years, before Theta Digital was born (my original company), we developed this filter design/generator. The common digital filter method is a Parks-McClellan algorithm, which has been used in all of the older oversampling chipsets, and persists to this day as the input filter in most ds DACs. Why? I assume it is because it is royalty-free, and the algorithm is widely available as are digital filter software design packages to aid in a cookbook aproach to the design. Now Parks McClellan an open form math solution, which means that the coefficient calculation is a series of approximations which always get halfway there. This of course, means it never completely solves. The worse news is that all original sample are lost, replaced by 8 new approximated ones. Further, the Parks McClellan optimization is based on the frequency domain only flat frequency response, with the time (read spatial) domain ignored.


Our filter is based upon closed form math the coefficients are not approximations, the equations solve; the matrices invert and the math is done. The filter also optimizes the time domain.


This is the reason that on good recordings (with good playback system as well) through Yggy (and now Gungnir multibit) you can hear the hall, its dimensions, and the exact position of anyone coughing or farting in the room, the motions and locations of instruments being hoisted in preparation of being played, etc. etc. Details such as sheet music pages being turned are not muddled because of clear differential spatial cues. This comes exclusively from our filter. A friend of mine, Jonathan Horwich, sells master tapes in track form at least 15 IPS, and 30 (I believe) as well. On those analog masters, you can also hear the entire environment before the music starts what is amazing there is that even if on accounts for hearing down into the analog noise, the S/N indicates a 14 bit performance at best for those tapes. 14 bit or not those tapes, totally scratch my itch. If you want that, we got that and more for your digital pleasure.

 

[bornfi]

Dear Bornfi, How much of a step up is the Yggy over the Gungnir? Is it worth the extra dollars for the increase in quality? Also were you able to compare it with the Gungnir multi bit?

YES without any hesitation.

 

[bornfi]

Dear Bornfi, How much of a step up is the Yggy over the Gungnir?

This can be dependent on personal taste but for me it was huge; I cannot go back to Gungnir even if I get is at 1/4th of the price of Yggy.

Is it worth the extra dollars for the increase in quality?

yes, anytime.

Also were you able to compare it with the Gungnir multi bit?

No.

Sorry, I just noticed that I answered partly earlier.

 

[regeHA]

Bumping an old thread.

Has anyone heard the yggy and mind sharing their thoughts? Looking for an upgrade, but unless I can have a listen it will have to be a blind purchase like most Schiit stuff.