Soundstage Height Issue

[Shinto]

Interesting discussion there. The recurrent themes are: reflected sound vs direct sound (wall treatment), ceiling and floor treatment, toe in/tilt (that didn’t work for both that OP and this OP), and the amplifier.

A lot has been discussed on the other points. Do you want to try a small experiment with the amplifier seating, @Shinto? Can you try puting a Turkish towel (double or triple folded) between below your amplifier? Check what happens to the sound overall and especially the image height. It’s a trick that @prem guided me with and considerably improved the sound in my system - essentially reducing the suck out and aiding clarity/detail as compared to placing the amp directly on the cabinet. You too have your amplifier placed on a seemingly non-audiophile (ie non-specific purpose) classic wooden cabinet like me. I wonder if it could help you with your issue too. It’s a pretty easy and quick hack to try.

@rikhav, I am intrigued by this http://www.hifi-forum.de/ forum. I can see most FMs there seem Indian and I could also see @arj common between this and that forum (may be there are more common members). Does hifivision forum owe its antecedence to the hifi-forum.de in any way? In that case, I’d be interested in knowing why the shift happened from that to this one - essentially the genesis of the hifivision forum. Can anyone please illuminate?

Hi Sachin,
Appreciate your efforts to suggest ideas.I will try it and report.But I cant see how it would improve my situation as my amplifier has dedicated isolation feets.

Blast from the past


You should find something informative in this thread

How Do I Improve Image Height, Stereo (Engl.) - HIFI-FORUM

I am an \'image freak\' and a great sound stage is Very important to me, for my listning pleasure. My system is quite basic : Denon 2900 Universal Pl

www.hifi-forum.de

Hi rikhav,
Thanks for the post.Very informative.

The power amp is Quad 909 and the tube pre is Anode Acoustics. The distance from the back wall is 4 1/2 feet and side is 2 1/2 feet and the speakers are 5ft apart from each other. I sit about 7 feet away. I have tried shifting all these a bit here and there barring distance from side walls. I also roughly hear soundstage at about 3ft or so and some recordings it could be slightly more but just very slightly. The imaging and separation with most recordings is very good, so no problems there.
I haven't tried enough with positioning and placing so I cant say anything conclusively. Maybe I can request member @panditji @vivek_r @ADITYA.M [/USER], former and current owners of Harbeths to chime in from memory and experience.
View attachment 44915Artaching a photo.

Hi sushant,
Thanks.Is your right speaker pulled more from the wall or is it the pic??
May I ask @panditji @vivek_r @ADITYA.M [/USER] to please chime in.

 

[rikhav]

Interesting discussion there. The recurrent themes are: reflected sound vs direct sound (wall treatment), ceiling and floor treatment, toe in/tilt (that didn’t work for both that OP and this OP), and the amplifier.

A lot has been discussed on the other points. Do you want to try a small experiment with the amplifier seating, @Shinto? Can you try puting a Turkish towel (double or triple folded) between below your amplifier? Check what happens to the sound overall and especially the image height. It’s a trick that @prem guided me with and considerably improved the sound in my system - essentially reducing the suck out and aiding clarity/detail as compared to placing the amp directly on the cabinet. You too have your amplifier placed on a seemingly non-audiophile (ie non-specific purpose) classic wooden cabinet like me. I wonder if it could help you with your issue too. It’s a pretty easy and quick hack to try.

@rikhav, I am intrigued by this http://www.hifi-forum.de/ forum. I can see most FMs there seem Indian and I could also see @arj common between this and that forum (may be there are more common members). Does hifivision forum owe its antecedence to the hifi-forum.de in any way? In that case, I’d be interested in knowing why the shift happened from that to this one - essentially the genesis of the hifivision forum. Can anyone please illuminate?

Yes many senior audiophiles will be found there.
I think there was no hifivision that time or was very new. Hifivision if I am not wrong started in 2006

 

[prem]

Shinto what power, speaker and ic cables are you using? What is their awg?

 

[Shinto]

Hi Prem,

Speaker cable is ofc copper cable(brand is connexia- nothing special).Gauge is 12 awg or 14 awg but not lower.( not written on the cable).
All power cables are stock cables supplied with equipments,(0.75 mm2/18 awg)
IC cable is DIY Mogami 2549

 

[prem]

Cable awg is fine. Pull the speakers out in the room and see how it sounds. I know it is not a practical solution but see if the stage height increases. When I say pull out, I am talking like 6 feet out into the room. What is the interface between the speaker and the stand?

 

[arj]

I am intrigued by this http://www.hifi-forum.de/ forum. I can see most FMs there seem Indian and I could also see @arj common between this and that forum (may be there are more common members). Does hifivision forum owe its antecedence to the hifi-forum.de in any way? In that case, I’d be interested in knowing why the shift happened from that to this one - essentially the genesis of the hifivision forum. Can anyone please illuminate?

Truly a blast from the past as it really started off in 2004 as part of the larger german forums english section and a few of us indians really took it over although but by 2012 or so they shut down the english forum but thankfully HifiVision had taken off then so many of us crossed over.

Was the only forum discussing HiFi in india then and a lot of really knowledgeable folks were on it folks like Bhagwan , Dr Basss, square Wave, viren, siva ( AP), were all on it along with a lot of other who are not on this and learnt a lot from them .

 

[Deleted member 15865]

Truly a blast from the past as it really started off in 2004 as part of the larger german forums english section and a few of us indians really took it over although but by 2012 or so they shut down the english forum but thankfully HifiVision had taken off then so many of us crossed over.

Was the only forum discussing HiFi in india then and a lot of really knowledgeable folks were on it folks like Bhagwan , Dr Basss, square Wave, viren, siva ( AP), were all on it along with a lot of other who are not on this and learnt a lot from them .

Wow, sounds like a multinational firm’s India arm closing down leading to a large infusion of quality leadership into a competing domestic firm!

Sorry for the detour. Let’s get back to helping @Shinto raise the bar (literally) of his sound.

 

[Shinto]

Cable awg is fine. Pull the speakers out in the room and see how it sounds. I know it is not a practical solution but see if the stage height increases. When I say pull out, I am talking like 6 feet out into the room. What is the interface between the speaker and the stand?

Hi Prem, I will try to pull the speakers out.6 feet into the room.the room is 18 ft long.I use bluetac/easy tac as they call it here which is a reshapable rubbery dough like adhesive on the stands at 4 points.

 

[prem]

Shinto, if you are using blu tac, then you are coupling the speakers to the stands. They will work as one. Try rubber as an experiment between speaker and stand. It will isolate to some extent. See if any change is there.

 

[Shinto]

Hi Prem,The issue is ,I need the speakers to be firm on the stand as the system is in the living room and I have a 4 year old running around

 

[prem]

I understand. I too use blu tac between my speakers and stand since I want to couple them. I was only asking you to try it out so that at least we know if that is a cause.

 

[Sushant Sharma]

Cable awg is fine. Pull the speakers out in the room and see how it sounds. I know it is not a practical solution but see if the stage height increases. When I say pull out, I am talking like 6 feet out into the room. What is the interface between the speaker and the stand?

Hi Shinto,
I know this is your thread and I dont want to take the focus away. But maybe a second opinion will only help us both, since we are trying to achieve the same thing.
I pulled the speakers out to about 7 ft from the back wall. Thanks for the suggestion @prem. The distance from side walls remains same to about 2 and half feet. what a revelation it is. I have never been able to do this in the three years I have had the Harbeths, owing to space constraints or not thinking of doing the same before.

Now, there is gap between the performers. My depth perception has been called into play. There is a lot more happening behind the speakers. Most times the vocals and drums or standup bass comes from the back wall (which is 7 ft behind from the speakers) and accompanying instruments from the speakers which brings a kind of nice layering to the sound ( I might be using some terms interchangebaly). This does depend to an extent upon the LP I play. Very involving and on some LPs, the speakers totally dissapear.

I also brought a lower chair to sit on but the height of the sound hasn't changed much. I feel sometimes, it might have but only marginally.

I also did the LEDR test, all the other parameters were ticked but the height thing did not work there aswell. Will wait to hear if you report similar results with the gap/depth of the differnet instruments/ vocals after you pull out your speakers 6 to 7 ft, Shinto. Pardon me if I sound too cheery and animated. Thanks for starting this thread.

 

[rikhav]

Inspired from what I read from the link I posted yesterday, I brought my speakers right next to the side walls of the room. Maybe around 12 Inches from sidewall, and then a reasonable toe in, and shifted my listening position few feet back.
Placed thick pillows on approximately first reflection point on the side walls.
And the soundstage height has gone up.
Earlier it felt each and every singer is sitting s bathroom stool and singing and now it's good ft or 2 above speakers.
I won't be able to keep the speakers in current position but just did for experiment sake and glad I learnt something.
So atleast for me trying to take care of reflections has helped

PS - sorry to OP to hijack his thread. Posted my findings if it might help in any way

 

[Shinto]

I understand. I too use blu tac between my speakers and stand since I want to couple them. I was only asking you to try it out so that at least we know if that is a cause.

Hi Prem,I will try it.Would you please suggest me a rubber product for this or shall I just use some sort of vibration isolation feet of some sort(like https://www.bunnings.com.au/whites-50-x-50-x-12mm-anti-vibration-squares-8-pack_p3961977).

Hi Shinto,
I know this is your thread and I dont want to take the focus away. But maybe a second opinion will only help us both, since we are trying to achieve the same thing.
I pulled the speakers out to about 7 ft from the back wall. Thanks for the suggestion @prem. The distance from side walls remains same to about 2 and half feet. what a revelation it is. I have never been able to do this in the three years I have had the Harbeths, owing to space constraints or not thinking of doing the same before.

Now, there is gap between the performers. My depth perception has been called into play. There is a lot more happening behind the speakers. Most times the vocals and drums or standup bass comes from the back wall (which is 7 ft behind from the speakers) and accompanying instruments from the speakers which brings a kind of nice layering to the sound ( I might be using some terms interchangebaly). This does depend to an extent upon the LP I play. Very involving and on some LPs, the speakers totally dissapear.

I also brought a lower chair to sit on but the height of the sound hasn't changed much. I feel sometimes, it might have but only marginally.

I also did the LEDR test, all the other parameters were ticked but the height thing did not work there aswell. Will wait to hear if you report similar results with the gap/depth of the differnet instruments/ vocals after you pull out your speakers 6 to 7 ft, Shinto. Pardon me if I sound too cheery and animated. Thanks for starting this thread.

Hi Sushant,

Totally fine here.Actually this is helping me a lot.Thanks for this.I will do it soon and let you know the result(busy with work and not finding enough time to do this).I have reasonable depth already and I am sure it will improve with further pull out of speakers and your experiment is providing more confidence.

What is your distance between your seat to speakers now and what is the room length?

My speakers are Harbeth 30.1.Please see below links on measurements done on Harbeth 30.2 and Harbeth 30 which are successor and predecessor respectively of my speakers.

Harbeth Monitor 30.2 40th Anniversary Edition loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

The tester comments "The speaker's vertical dispersion is shown in fig.5. Suckouts in the crossover region occur more than 10° above and 5° below the tweeter axis, but there is slightly more mid-treble energy 5–10° above the tweeter axis. This speaker needs to be used with stands that place the tweeter axis just below the level of a seated listener's ears, to get the most neutral treble balance".


Also Harbeth 30 is measured by https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/harbeth-monitor-30-speaker-review.11108/

His measurements also points to suck outs in the vertical axis near crossover frequencies (2.5 khz-3 khz in this case).

I am not sure if this has something to do with the stage height.

EDIT: if this has something to do with the height of stage, we might need to use a taller chair @Sushant Sharma .

HI @prem , may I ask your opinion on this.

Other experts,and esteemed senior forum members, please feel free to mention your opinions.Will be helpful to me and @Sushant Sharma and many others may be.

PS - sorry to OP to hijack his thread. Posted my findings if it might help in any way
[/QUOTE]

Hi Rikhav,
It only helps.No worries at all.
Thanks,

 

[prem]

Shinto, the link you provided for anti vibration squares seems fine.

I am not familiar with your speakers. But normally it’s safe to have tweeter height at ear level.

 

[Sushant Sharma]

Hi Sushant,

Totally fine here.Actually this is helping me a lot.Thanks for this.I will do it soon and let you know the result(busy with work and not finding enough time to do this).I have reasonable depth already and I am sure it will improve with further pull out of speakers and your experiment is providing more confidence.

What is your distance between your seat to speakers now and what is the room length?

My speakers are Harbeth 30.1.Please see below links on measurements done on Harbeth 30.2 and Harbeth 30 which are successor and predecessor respectively of my speakers.

Harbeth Monitor 30.2 40th Anniversary Edition loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

The tester comments "The speaker's vertical dispersion is shown in fig.5. Suckouts in the crossover region occur more than 10° above and 5° below the tweeter axis, but there is slightly more mid-treble energy 5–10° above the tweeter axis. This speaker needs to be used with stands that place the tweeter axis just below the level of a seated listener's ears, to get the most neutral treble balance".


Also Harbeth 30 is measured by https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/harbeth-monitor-30-speaker-review.11108/

His measurements also points to suck outs in the vertical axis near crossover frequencies (2.5 khz-3 khz in this case).

I am not sure if this has something to do with the stage height.

EDIT: if this has something to do with the height of stage, we might need to use a taller chair @Sushant Sharma .

HI @prem , may I ask your opinion on this.

Other experts,and esteemed senior forum members, please feel free to mention your opinions.Will be helpful to me and @Sushant Sharma and many others may be.

Hi Shinto
My room is L shaped and about 25ft long on the side I use for listening. I am sitting about 7 to 8 ft away from the speakers. The article seems a little too technical for me. Let me try and see if I can understand it. I guess I will take my chair height back to tweeter level/slightly higher.
Please do keep posting any further headway you make on the issue at hand. thanks

 

[Shinto]

Hi Shinto
My room is L shaped and about 25ft long on the side I use for listening. I am sitting about 7 to 8 ft away from the speakers. The article seems a little too technical for me. Let me try and see if I can understand it. I guess I will take my chair height back to tweeter level/slightly higher.
Please do keep posting any further headway you make on the issue at hand. thanks

It is too technical for me too.The test report says most neutral treble balance is acheived by tweeter below the ear level. but this may or may not have anything to do with soundstage.only experts can help.It is way beyond my understanding.

 

[MaSh]

Hi Prem,I will try it.Would you please suggest me a rubber product for this or shall I just use some sort of vibration isolation feet of some sort(like https://www.bunnings.com.au/whites-50-x-50-x-12mm-anti-vibration-squares-8-pack_p3961977).

I see you have already used Blutac. I did not like it much as after a while it tends to get hard and not very isolative(if that's even a term ). You could then try the usual jugads of half-cut squash balls, kids cycle tubes, etc. After trying these out I am now settled with a Sand Box with speakers sitting on a granite slab and 2 layers of 3M double-sided tape. Do not get the normal tape, you might have to leave it on permanently. Get the 3M automotive tape that comes off easily and leaves no marks. This tape when stretched a bit and used just like blutac, gives a bit of sponginess and also holds the speakers fairly well against minor knocks and shoves.

MaSh

 

[Shinto]

UPDATE:

Did some changes this weekend.
Swapped the left and right speakers physically.
The result: the sound stage smearing towards left is gone.
Solid center image now.Which makes height issue not so noticeable i guess at least for now.
Wondering what could be the reason for this.
Is it because one of the speakers(previous right speaker ) have lesser sound out put.??
If so the sound should shift towards right now ,Is in it.?? Confused now, but any way I have better sound stage and Imaging now even thought he height is not improved.

The question is ,

Harbeths are marked as left and right at the rear of the speaker. Even though the speakers look totally identical,would there be any design reason for marking them so.Now since I have swapped them, is there any issues??

 

[pks.k]

UPDATE:

Did some changes this weekend.
Swapped the left and right speakers physically.
The result: the sound stage smearing towards left is gone.
Solid center image now.Which makes height issue not so noticeable i guess at least for now.
Wondering what could be the reason for this.
Is it because one of the speakers(previous right speaker ) have lesser sound out put.??
If so the sound should shift towards right now ,Is in it.?? Confused now, but any way I have better sound stage and Imaging now even thought he height is not improved.

The question is ,

Harbeths are marked as left and right at the rear of the speaker. Even though the speakers look totally identical,would there be any design reason for marking them so.Now since I have swapped them, is there any issues??

Interesting .
Eagerly waiting for the comments of experienced members!

Am in the same situation here.
struggling to get a better sound stage with my setup..