South Indian Carnatic Classical Music

[Asit]

Thad, Asliarun, Sivasarjun and Sughosh,

You all have raised a few very very interesting points. These were discussed in detail in my private e-mail conversations with Bala (thevortex).

Basis of Carnatic classical music is also the Ragas. The compositions (kritis) are based on Ragas. It is true that in South Indian tradition, the compositions are paid a lot of attention to, and saved perhaps in their orginal form much better (although very often famous musicians add precomposed chittai swaram to certain parts, and that then become quite accepted by the community who expect the same chittai swarams to appear in other musicians' renditions). But in every concert, there will be at least one piece where the Raga exposition will be done in detail, then the kriti will follow with kalpana swarms and end with taniabartanam for the mridangam and/or ghatam players. This is just a matter of form.

OTOH, it is very true that compositions play a less major role in North Indian classical music, although good compositions are always appreciated. But in North India, less care has been taken to preserve the good compositions, and the artistes take a lot of liberty in modifying it. To sing Sree Raga Pancharatna kriti in my own modified form is a big no no in Carnatic tradition.

Also the lyrics differ tremendously in content. In Carnatic, it is only devotional while in North India, it could be literally anything, starting from devotional to love themes to praise of a king, sometimes it is even utterly distasteful lyrics. I am reminded of a funny story here. Once in Kolkata during the British era, an Ustad performed a certain Raga in front of the Governer General using just the words "Long live the Queen" or something like that. The Governer General was so pleased that he got his marvelous watch out of his pocket and presented it to the Ustad. Ustads those days had no use for a watch. People say that he used to use that extremely heavy and sturdy watch to break walnut-shells for his breakfast.

Anyway, the point is that, sure, there are differences, in forms of presentation, as I said in my earlier post. But the basic themes are the Ragas, and here they are the same.

I have only touched on very briefly the main point. But there are many many issues in the two music styles of India regarding forms of presentation.

Whenever I have more time I will touch upon the other issues raised, for example, the one raised by Thad on the note-focussed and phrase-focussed aspects.

Regards.

 

[sughosh]

That does sound very "regular". I guess it's because I have been out of touch that I haven't noticed this. Only attended a couple of concerts in the last few years - Bombay Jayashree and Lalgudi GJR Krishnan+Vijayalakshmi, and both of these strayed considerably from the norm.

 

[sughosh]

Also the lyrics differ tremendously in content. In Carnatic, it is only devotional while in North India, it could be literally anything, starting from devotional to love themes to praise of a king, sometimes it is even utterly distasteful lyrics.

Heh. One of my dad's pet peeves used to be a piece that had no lyrics other than "Muhammad Shah Rangeele", or something like that. Dad thought it was quite riduculous to classify this as "classical music" :lol:

Anyway, the point is that, sure, there are differences, in forms of presentation, as I said in my earlier post. But the basic themes are the Ragas, and here they are the same.

Actually, the ragas in the two systems are not as similar as they seem. For one, there is a stronger sense of mathematical progressions in Carnatic due to the 72 Melakartha system, whereas Hindustani ragas often take (seemingly) arbitrary back-and-forth jumps across the scale, "breaking" a few of the Melakartha system "rules" in the process (eg. Desh, Malhar, Brindavani, Bhairavi etc, which seem to have been incorporated into the Carnatic system from Hindustani).

There are , of course, some ragas in the Carnatic system too that do not follow a very rigid progression (eg Ananda Bhairavi, Thodi etc), but by and large Carnatic ragas tend to be more linear.

Then of course, the most basic difference between the traditions is 72 melas vs 12 thaats, which naturally provides for a greater variety of ragas in the Carnatic tradition

 

[Asit]

Sughosh,

I have to go to a meeting that starts with lunch and I, being the convener of the meeting have fixed the menu . I will continue the discussion in the evening some time.

Regards.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

So in order to appreciate Carnatic the listener has to imbibe the kriti (and through it the raga)himself through repeated hearings and internalise it.

But... the purists among my rasika friends say that even many artists do not properly understand the lyrics, and even make nonsense of them by mispronouncing them!

I don't argue with what you say: carnatic music is, in principle, lyric-centred and bhakti-based. Even instrumentalists are supposed to emulate the human voice and, of course, convey the meaning of the song. The practice of the thing, though, is not quite so clear cut.

The trouble with "in order to appreciate" statements is their limitation. They may indeed be true of the aspect of the music to which they refer, but there is no limitation on general appreciation, apart from finding that one enjoys and is moved by the music.

Perhaps there is one in-order-to-enjoy proviso. One must be able to listen to raga-based music with notes that are not tuned to the same intervals as the modern western scale. I think that, to some westerners, this is an absolute limitation, because it makes Indian music sound, to them, out-of-tune, and therefore intrinsically unpleasant. If we were take a trawl through the native musics of the world, most of us would eventually encounter examples that, to our ears, just sound wrong.

Rhythm is another thing. Carnatic music is certainly not toe-tapping music. Sometimes the beat, even, let alone the rhythm cycle, is hard to identify, and fives and sevens easily trip up the western ear. Carnatic rasikas have an obsession about keeping the beat, which seems to me to be completely unnecessary --- but, of course, western music is not without its would-be conductors waving their arms around in front of the stereo .

All of these things can be bypassed by an open mind --- are are completely short-circuited in those of us who have, simply, always liked, and felt at home with, Indian music.

 

[himadri]

Interesting discussion
Though my exposure to carnatic style is nowhere as compared to my limited exposure to hindustani style , but Asit ( surely with his vast knowledge and experience) is right in indicating that the basics are the same.
Actually ,glimpses of 'composition based ' music in the hindustani style can be heard during a dhrupad presentation after the elaborate alaap where the musician tries out various rhythmic and melodic improvisations of the 2 lines of the poem (hence dhru-pad).
I suspect that periodic dilution of the dhrupad style with various cultural ornamentations over a long period of time resulted in the kheyal style , giving more liberty to the musicians /composers as far as compositions go, which may not have happened in the carnatic style which preserved its original character better.
cheers
Himadri

 

[sivasarjun]

Thad,
You misunderstood me.I didnt mean the lyrics as much as the structure of the kriti.
The monumental kritis of the trinity are as grand and meticulosly structured as the great temples of Tamilnad.

For example the great Kamboji kriti O Rangasayee.How the phrases and the sangathees combine to form a beautiful jewel of Kamoji.In Evarimata it is ordered differently.So also in Sri Subrahmanyaya namaste.

 

[sivasarjun]

The trouble with "in order to appreciate" statements is their limitation. They may indeed be true of the aspect of the music to which they refer, but there is no limitation on general appreciation, apart from finding that one enjoys and is moved by the music.



.

Sorry if I sounded as saying that my way is the only way and the right way.Anybody can enjoy any work of art anyway he likes.
Because of my limited capabilities of expressing myself in English even I dont like the tone of my comments.

 

[sivasarjun]

Another interesting thing I have noticed is that a concert by an average hindusthani artist is more fulfilling than one by an equally average Carnatic artist.Somehow their approach seems more sincere.Generally the carnatic artists suffer from such traits as playing to the gallery,catering to the lowest common denominator,singing the songs which they think will appeal to the audience rather than singing for their own enjoyment and letting the listener partake in the experience.
Ofcourse the great musicians were that way whether Caarnatic or Hindusthani .Semmangudi,MDR,Madura mani,Ariyakkudi and others.
Sadly their numbers are fast dwindling.

 

[sughosh]

Interesting thought. I have hardly attended any Hindustani concerts, whether average or above average artists, and Carnatic I have mostly stuck to the relatively big names, so I'm not really qualified to assess this.

I daresay this perception may be due to the basic nature of the music - you can call it a downside of the composition-based tradition that "ease of recognition" becomes a factor, and perhaps dissuades the artist from experimenting to the extent of alienating his or her audience. In a purely improvisation-based setting where the only aspect of consequence is the specific "raag" being rendered, such thoughts do not occur to the performer.

In this sense Hindustani music is probably perceived as more liberating for the performer. At the risk of sounding a little self-centered though, it is this precise aspect that minimizes my involvement when it comes to Hindustani. Without a melodic thread to identify and pick up on, it is difficult to immerse myself in the music

 

[asliarun]

Perhaps there is one in-order-to-enjoy proviso. One must be able to listen to raga-based music with notes that are not tuned to the same intervals as the modern western scale. I think that, to some westerners, this is an absolute limitation, because it makes Indian music sound, to them, out-of-tune, and therefore intrinsically unpleasant. If we were take a trawl through the native musics of the world, most of us would eventually encounter examples that, to our ears, just sound wrong.

Really?? Wow, this is quite a surprise to know. I thought that the octaves in Indian music are the same as in Western music, so I had assumed that the progression of notes in both would sounds equally in-tune or out-of-tune. Need to know more about this.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Thad,
You misunderstood me.I didnt mean the lyrics as much as the structure of the kriti ...How the frases and the sangathees combine to form a beautiful jewel of Kamoji.In Evarimata it is ordered differently.So also in Sri Subrahmanyaya namaste.

Yes, I did misunderstand. Even after so much listening, I am only now learning to concentrate on the detail of sagatis etc

Sorry if I sounded as saying that my way is the only way and the right way.Anybody can enjoy any work of art anyway he likes.
Because of my limited capabilities of expressing myself in English even I dont like the tone of my comments.

I like the way you put that

My response wasn't meant to be personal, because "you can't unless" is an attitude often encountered. On a rasikas.org thread about increasing the popularity of carnatic music we have spoken about the feeling some people get they need to pass an exam before they can go to the concert hall

Another interesting thing I have noticed is that a concert by an average hindusthani artist is more fulfilling than one by an equally average Carnatic artist.

The more experienced can say if if I'm right about this, but the lesser Hindustani artists may well have more technical polish. Carnatic vocal training does not seem to include stuff like, err... singing! --- by which I mean stuff like voice production, voice projection, accuracy of sruti; the technical stuff of how to sing rather than what to sing. I don't think this is new either, in fact some of the young generation do do voice training.

Look at mic technique: often lousy, even in the young. That thing in front of a vocalist's face is one of the prime tools of his/her trade, yet few seem to recognise its limitations and how to use it. Anyway, that's a hobby horse of mine, so better stop there

... In this sense Hindustani music is probably perceived as more liberating for the performer. At the risk of sounding a little self-centered though, it is this precise aspect that minimizes my involvement when it comes to Hindustani. Without a melodic thread to identify and pick up on, it is difficult to immerse myself in the music

With HM, the music immerses itself in you! Sometimes it really seems an entirely different experience to anything I'd call listening to music; more like some sort of meditation.

Really?? Wow, this is quite a surprise to know. I thought that the octaves in Indian music are the same as in Western music, so I had assumed that the progression of notes in both would sounds equally in-tune or out-of-tune. Need to know more about this.

I think that the similarity begins and ends with eight notes where the eighth is one octave above the first and they harmonise as such. The western scale has been "tempered" to make all the harmonies work. This is an immensely technical aspect, where people, necessarily, soon start talking maths, and, as soon as the numbers start, my brain glazes over. I do know that there are actually many different types of "scale" with different arrangements of notes.

 

[Kevian]

sorry to poke into serious discussions here.....small question....do carnatic music CDs have lyrics in the jewel case? I try to understand thyagaraja but after few lines...I can't understand what is being sung (telugu).....with some efforts, I believe I can understand telugu renditions of Thyagaraaja or Annamacharya or Ramdasu even if they are sung by Tamil Carnatic Singers...but ...for example I have this Millenium Vol 8 cd rip on which Nithyasri Mahadevan sung "Gnana Sabhayil pillai"....its in tamil..I cannot understand such carnatic works...though she sang outstandingly....I cannot enjoy it as much I can when I listen to "Nannu Vidachi Kadalakura" by M Santhanam or anyone...I guess I am putting it in right way....before I put my money on CDs..I want to know if they have lyrics in it and it is in Telugu.....so any directions for Telugu noobs like me?

 

[srramanujam]

Some labels have lyrics. The earlier CDs of Rajalakshmi had lyrics in the jewel case (cardboard case in their case). Now they just give a link to their website.

Most don't, probably since they assume that you have passed THE exam before buying the CD.

Making sure that the CD has telugu compositions is relatively easy. You need to know most of the Telugu composers and just cross check that with the title list. You will also be able to find most of the lyrics online anyway. Rasikas.org also lists a book of carnatic composition lyrics which is a collector's item.

 

[Kevian]

..Most don't, probably since they assume that you have passed THE exam before buying the CD...

:sad: I didn't even prepare...let alone attempting and passing THE exam...

and regarding Telugu composers...I found this helpful..

 

[asliarun]

Carnatic vocal training does not seem to include stuff like, err... singing! --- by which I mean stuff like voice production, voice projection, accuracy of sruti; the technical stuff of how to sing rather than what to sing. I don't think this is new either, in fact some of the young generation do do voice training.

Again, an extremely insightful and accurate statement! What you say is mostly right, but there are some exceptions (sometimes). A long long time ago, I learnt Karnatic vocal under a Delhi based music teacher, Radha Venkatachalam (herself, a disciple of TRS). She was an absolute savant or stickler when it came to the accuracy of pitch, the proper way to modulate one's voice, the correctness of movements etc. to the extent that we (the student group) would repeat the same line or even part of a line dozens and dozens of time until it was perfect.

However, based on hearsay and some observation of other teachers, students, and even performers, I find this attitude lacking. Students and parents of students very often rate their teachers on the number of songs or "kritis" they have been taught. The quality of singing often is very often an afterthought. This desire to learn as many kritis as possible often becomes a rat race, given the heightened expectations and lack of patience that everyone has nowadays. The only way a teacher can get away being a stickler is if she/he is immensely popular (again, as if great performers are automatically great teachers).

 

[sivasarjun]

Yes, Chembai had only a concert repertoire of less than thirty compositions.But each one was polished to such an extent that he was happy to express himself through them.

 

[Asit]

Sughsosh,

In your post #183, you have ventured into an area which are best left to the absolute experts who have spent a lifetime practising music and at the same time thinking about its structure. I am not sure to what depth I should go in commenting on your post. Let me apologize in the beginning because I have to say a few things very simply in a straightforward manner and I hope you take it objectively and not personally.

First of all, music is music. That is, it is a gift of nature, and it flows naturally. Trivial as it may seem, it is actually a very profound statement. The combination of notes that makes music is created in nature quite naturally and human beings just discover it. Pleasing combinations of notes can be explained scientifically in terms harmonics and ratios of small integers. I have tried explaining that a few places in this forum. Please look at my posts
1) http://www.hifivision.com/music/6854-r-rehman-great-13.html#post86455
2) http://www.hifivision.com/music/6854-r-rehman-great-15.html#post86628
3) http://www.hifivision.com/music/6854-r-rehman-great-18.html#post86967
4) http://www.hifivision.com/music/6854-r-rehman-great-18.html#post87123
5) http://www.hifivision.com/music/6854-r-rehman-great-18.html#post87134

I know it's a long list. But you have raised some serious issues. Answers therefore cannot be brief and simple. In the above posts, you will find how the Indian scale (also called the harmonic scale or 'just intonation') of notes is formed. You will also find how a particular melodic scale is formed ultimately culminating in a very refined structure what we call a Raga.

You shall also find how the modern (from the time of Bach approximately) Western scale is formed. The Western scale is called a tempered scale or 'equal temperament'. Here you will find that it differs from the Indian harmonic scale quite significantly and the how the requirements of melody cannot be perfectly fulfilled in the Western scale because apart from the Octave (Saptaka) relationship, no other important relationships between notes like the Samvada (consonance, eg, S-P) or the meru-khanda (triads eg S-G-P) can be maintained. And these relationships are the pillars of a melodic piece and naturally of a raga.

But, one should remember that all this analysis is helpful only in understating the structure of a raga. The Indian musician has a gift (you may say, from the God) that once he/she grows up with Indian scale from infancy, he/she can naturally improvise in a given raga (of course with proper training) without consciously thinking about the next combinations. It's like a tram going along the tramlines, once it's on the track, it just goes along that track.

The Benkatmakhi 72 melas (or scales) can be obtained with some effort from whatever I have written above (of course including the reference posts above). But a static scale does not convey any music. Music is formed when you take a certain mela or scale and within that form melodic movements. Arbitrary movements will not result in a melody. The relationships among notes that I have defined above have to be satisfied in order to form a melody. As I said before, the musician knows how to do this 'automatically' or naturally. That is the difference between a musician and a non-musician, at least in the Indian context.

The North Indian scale is not limited to the 10 scales (called 'That's) as devised by Bhatkhande who wanted to create a sense of order among a lot of chaos about 100 years ago. One should take it as an approximate thesis (however, in no way I want to belittle what he did. He travelled all around and literally begged ustads and pundits of North Indian classical music of the time in order to collect compositions in all ragas possible so that he could classify all or most of them approximately according to his 10 thats. He was severly humiliated by many people at that time, but he kept at it).

After all, all this mela or 'That' business is just theory. The actual practitioners of music may not necessarily know about them. All they care about are the ragas which are 'alive' stuff. I learnt from my childhood from Ustad Dabir Khan (grandson of Wazir Khan of Rampur, daughter-side desecendent of Tansen. Wazir Khan was also the guru of Hafiz Ali Khan, father of Amjad Ali Khan and the guru of Allahuddin Khan, guru and father of Ali Akbar Khan, and father-in-law and guru of Ravi Shankar, and also guru of Nikhil Banerjee). My guruji Dabir Khan never ever talked about any 'That's/melas, all he was interested in was the Ragas.

You seem to say that the melkartha system also gives the rules for movement of notes. No it does not. It just gives you the static notes, known as a scale or a mela or a 'That'. A simple arohan and avarohan never will satisfy the melodic requirements and hence it will never produce a raga. In carnatic music also, you do not progress along the scale in your 'linear' way. Just listen carefully. It's not there in the kritis as well.

The Rags are basically the same in the two systems because they follow from the same harmonic or 'just-intonated' scale. However, a certain set of ragas are popular in each region. So some of the ragas are not common in both regions. For example, until about 50-60 years ago, I do not think North Indians were performing in Hamsadhwani, varieties of Ranjani, Kirwani, Vachaspati, Simhendramadhyamam etc. But now they are not so uncommon.

Just wanted to mention that Carnatic Bhairavi and Todi are both very old and traditional structures, prevalent for centuries. I am not too sure about Desh and Malhars. Malhars are not that popular there. But Vrindavani has been there at least for a few centuries. I myself know a Thyagaraja kriti "Kamalaptha Kula kalashabdhi chandra" (in Vrindavani) which I have performed in a Thyagaraja festival in Washington DC many years ago. Ramnad Raghavan (brother of Ramnad Krishnan and uncle of L Shankar and L Subramaniam) was present there. He even came to the Green room (where I was warming up my voice) to encourage a young Bengali boy. I must say though that this Vrindavani in the Thyagaraja kriti is slightly different from the North Indian Vrindavani in that it does use only the komal nishad and hence is close to what we call Madhyamadi Sarang.

In principle the number of ragas possible in either system cannot be different, because the roots are the same Indian system of scale (harmonic or 'just intonation').

I am sorry for most of the folks here who would just want to enjoy music and would not want to worry about all this discussion. I cannot blame you if you get bored. My musician self tells me it's actually meaningless. Just go out there and sing.

Regards.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

This has been fascinating.

I suspect that it is going to pause, for a while, as we have so much to digest

 

[venkatcr]

john b Higgins anyone? ka va vaa??

Higgins Baghavathar, as he was popularly known, was in my opinion, the best any Westerner came close to being a perfect Carnatic singer. If you closed your eyes and listened, you would think it was a hard core south Indian (from Myplapore? ) who was singing. Unfortunately he was in the circuit for a short time, and then simply disappeared. I will roam the shops to see if I can pick up any albums of his.

There have been a few enquiries about V Doreswamy Iyengar. As part of digitising all my CDs, I have on hand the following albums by VDI.

1. Sangeetha Kalanidhi V. Doreswamy Iyengar - Live at the Music Academy, 1984. Accompanied by Kuttalam R. Viswanath Iyer on the Mridangam, D. Balakrishna on the Veena and KS Manjunathan on the Ghatam.

Saregama CDNF 147774. Bar Code 8901112477747. Packed 11/2007.

• Nee Bhajana
• Naodadina Maata
• Entaninne
• Gangaye Vasandhara
• Sri Ramam (Narayanagowda - Adi - Muthuswami Dikshithar)
• Eswari Rajeswari

2. Sangeetha Kalanidhi V. Doreswamy Iyengar - Music Today. Bar Code 901563074533. Accompanied by Vellore Ramabhadran on the Mridangam, and D. Balakrishna on the Veena.

• Nadaposana
• Venkatarsaila Vihara
• Chintaya Makanda
• Padavi Nee Sadbhakti
• Raga Ratnamalikache

3. Thyagaraj Masterpieces By V. Doreswamy Iyengar - Vol 1. Music Today. Accompanied by Vellore Ramabhadran on the Mridangam, and D. Balakrishna on the Veena.

• Vachama Gocharame
• Nadopasana
• Padavi Nee Sadbhakti
• Raga Ratnamalikache
• Ee Vasudha

4. Maestro Alive - Mysore Doraiswamy Iyengar - Kosmic KMD 437. Accompanied by PG Lakshmi Narayana on the Mridangam

• Tera Teeyakarada
• Rama Bhakthi
• Eti Janma
• Shantamulekha
• Needayarada
• Bhavanutha

I shall update other album information as and when I get my hands on them.

Cheers