Subwoofer for stereo setup

[sandeepmohan]

High level inputs are not necessary even when a stereo amp does not have sub or pre out. One can use high to low impedance converter which is usually used in cars. It comes for under 100 bucks and does the same job as high level inputs at the back of an active sub.

Um! Why would anyone buy or even fit a low impedance converter when the high level input of a sub woofer does this for you! Besides, in this case, the pre amp has a dedicated sub woofer out with cross over control. Makes it even easier.

The advantage of using a high level input (with equipment without a sub out) is that the sub woofers gain level need not be touched. The level of the sub will be evenly matched to the main speaker based on the amplifiers gain level.

 

[sandeepmohan]

But I do like the idea of a sub that wont have to be upgraded atleast for a few years even if I upgrade rest of my system, so I might wait and expand my budget a bit.

Thats a good call.
I'd say that you save and buy something so good that it keeps you happy for a minimum of 10 years. The fundamentals of sub woofer design are more or less the same. DSP being about the only thing that has come up recently. Its not a deal breaker if you don't have one. Make sure the sub sounds right for you. This counts more than bells and whistles on a sub woofer.

 

[ketansethi1987]

Um! Why would anyone buy or even fit a low impedance converter when the high level input of a sub woofer does this for you! Besides, in this case, the pre amp has a dedicated sub woofer out with cross over control. Makes it even easier.

The advantage of using a high level input (with equipment without a sub out) is that the sub woofers gain level need not be touched. The level of the sub will be evenly matched to the main speaker based on the amplifiers gain level.

I am saying in case there is no high level input in the subwoofer. The buyer can go for a sub without high level inputs if it sounds better than the one having the inputs and can add external converter for the purpose.

Volume levels need to be controlled through the source once amplifier and subwoofer gain is set accordingly. In case we use high level inputs the sub does not get entire bass frequencies as we will never keep the bass full for the speakers, usually it is at 3 o clock or 12 o clock position as per the tone of the speakers. Therefore, sub out or pre out is better option.

This was a general though not exactly as per the post here though.

 

[Phew]

I am saying in case there is no high level input in the subwoofer. The buyer can go for a sub without high level inputs if it sounds better than the one having the inputs and can add external converter for the purpose.

Whats the point of buying a sub that sounds better and then putting a converter to negate that difference?

Volume levels need to be controlled through the source once amplifier and subwoofer gain is set accordingly. In case we use high level inputs the sub does not get entire bass frequencies as we will never keep the bass full for the speakers, usually it is at 3 o clock or 12 o clock position as per the tone of the speakers. Therefore, sub out or pre out is better option.

This was a general though not exactly as per the post here though.

What bass frequencies are missing or not sent to the sub when using high level input? What is at 3 O'clock or 12 O'clock and how does the speakers tone dictate the same?

 

[ketansethi1987]

Whats the point of buying a sub that sounds better and then putting a converter to negate that difference?


What bass frequencies are missing or not sent to the sub when using high level input? What is at 3 O'clock or 12 O'clock and how does the speakers tone dictate the same?

How can it be better to buy a sub you don't like just because it has high level inputs? What if you like a sub more and it does not have high level inputs?

When using high level inputs we are taking signal from speaker terminals. Speakers will always give best sound when bass is adjusted as per their tonal quality which will always be below the full point on a knob. 3 Oclock and 12 oclock are knob positions usually kept in a stereo amplifier for bass setting. If we keep the bass at less than full, the bass signal being sent to the subwoofer will be altered and it will get reduced bass as the speakers are getting. This will definitely lead to loss of some bass frequencies and the subwoofer will need to work harder and shall not give proper output as compared to when the signal is being sent from a pre out or a sub out without any sort of reduction in bass.

 

[Phew]

Whats the point of buying a sub that sounds better and then putting a converter to negate that difference?

Please read again as to what I have asked.

How can it be better to buy a sub you don't like just because it has high level inputs? What if you like a sub more and it does not have high level inputs?

No where have I asked anyone to buy a sub they don't like. If I like a subwoofer which happens to not have high level input then I can use a line level input or a low level input or if its a HT application the LFE input.

When using high level inputs we are taking signal from speaker terminals. Speakers will always give best sound when bass is adjusted as per their tonal quality which will always be below the full point on a knob. 3 Oclock and 12 oclock are knob positions usually kept in a stereo amplifier for bass setting. If we keep the bass at less than full, the bass signal being sent to the subwoofer will be altered and it will get reduced bass as the speakers are getting. This will definitely lead to loss of some bass frequencies and the subwoofer will need to work harder and shall not give proper output as compared to when the signal is being sent from a pre out or a sub out without any sort of reduction in bass.

Lets break this down, you are way off the mark here.
1. Can you explain what is tonal quality? and why is it partial/bias/favouring only bass and not treble or midrange?
2. So if the amplifer does not have tone controls does that mean the amplifier will stop the speakers from giving their best sound let alone a subwoofer?
3. If the amplifier or pre amplifier has tone controls then its necessary for us to keep the bass at FULL else if we use high level then the bass signal will not go to the sub is what you are saying?
4. What is the point of giving modes like source direct(denon), Pure direct(yamaha), Line straight(luxman) if we can only achieve speakers best sound with bass setting at FULL from the amplifier?
5. So the knobs on the subwoofer which are labelled 'gain and crossover' are useless once you use a high level input connection and only the knob on the amplifier or pre-amp will give the bass?
6. What are those 'some bass frequencies' can you please elaborate and why will the subwoofer work harder when those 'some bass frequencies' are lost in the first place 1. when we chose to use high level input 2. we didn't keep bass at full.
7. Does a pre-out or sub-out send a different signal compared to high level in an amplifier or pre-amp?
8. Say for example amplifiers have that have tone controls in which the bass adjustment is said to be at 80hz or 100hz or 120hz and our subwoofer is crossed over at 45hz given we use floorstander then how will the KNOB on the amplifer affect the subwoofers bass response?

It will be a bother I am sure but please try to answer my questions point wise for others and my better understanding.

 

[ketansethi1987]

Please read again as to what I have asked.

I am not able to understand.

No where have I asked anyone to buy a sub they don't like. If I like a subwoofer which happens to not have high level input then I can use a line level input or a low level input or if its a HT application the LFE input.

Exactly this was my point since the beginning.

1. By tonal quality I mean the level of the bass knob at which the speaker sounds best. Some speaker will sound good at center some will sound good at little more than center or near full level. Bass is being favored as it is the only variable in this scenario. Moving the treble or mid knob will not affect the signal being sent to the subwoofer.
2. Yes if amplifier does not have tone control it may or may not allow the speakers to perform at best level.
3. Yes this is what I am saying. Lower the bass knob lower the signal that will go into the subwoofer. And we will never keep the bass at full for speakers.
4. The direct mode is an option as per liking of the user. And I never said one has to keep the bass at full for speakers to perform best. But the subwoofer fed using high level will perform best if bass is at full.
5. These knobs will be more useful in case of high level inputs. But suppose you put the bass knob to minimum, then these functions of the subwoofer will be useless as the sub will get only high and mid frequencies and will not work at all. So lower the bass knob lower will be the performance from the subwoofer.
6. The tone control knob of bass controls some frequencies depending on the bass treble filter board it has. So if we reduce the bass knob the bass signal being sent to the subwoofer will also get reduced and the subwoofer will need more power and processing to bring those frequencies back. Lower the bass signal lower will be the subwoofer output. Exact frequency range cannot be determined. It may vary from amp to amp.
7. Yes! The pre-out and sub-out both send different signals to the active subwoofer compared to the high level signal. Pre-out sends entire signal and sub-out sends only low frequencies. Whereas high level signal will be after the signal is processed from the bass and treble board. It is not actually meant for the subwoofer but can be used in case option of sub-out or pre-out is not there.
8. In such a case what i believe the frequency wont be affected much but the output from the subwoofer can be affected to great extent if bass is reduced. The bass tone control does not control a specific frequency but entire spectrum of bass frequencies depending on the algo fed into it.

I have tried to explain the best I could. Rest I don't think there is any conclusion to be reached here. We both have our points. Let us let others jump in and comment.

All I wanted to say is sub-out or pre-out is always a better option than high level inputs. Like for example I faced a lot of issues in my honda car as it did not have pre-out. The system restricted bass from going to the speakers when volume was increased and this did not let the subwoofer perform well. Then I figured a way to bypass the internal system and the speakers were getting full bass even at high volume and subwoofer started performing well.

I am just sharing my experience and knowledge I have gained from experimenting with all these. I might be wrong and people are most welcome to correct me.

 

[sandeepmohan]

In case we use high level inputs the sub does not get entire bass frequencies as we will never keep the bass full for the speakers, usually it is at 3 o clock or 12 o clock position as per the tone of the speakers.

Your knowledge is incorrect on this part.

The implementation of a sub woofer in a Home Cinema setup versus a Stereo setup can be different based on the equipment feeding the sub woofer.

Most stereo integrated amplifiers do not come with a sub woofer pre output. The only way to feed the sub woofer in this situation is High Level Input. You run two sets of speaker cables. All speakers receive the full signal bandwith. The sub woofers high level input filters out the signal and feeds the sub woofer amplifier only a low pass feed. You control the cross over, amount of bass using the dial at the back of the sub woofer. Its a one time effort. Once you set it, your stereo amplifier takes over. As you increase gain for your main speakers, an equal signal is fed to the sub woofer, while still maintaining a even gain level across all speakers. The sub woofer offers bass fill that your main speakers can't do. Thats the goal here.

If you have a stereo integrated or a pre amplifier with a sub out, you can choose to go High Level or Pre Out. The choice is yours.

 

[Phew]

I am not able to understand.

Keep reading till you do.

I am not able to understand.


Exactly this was my point since the beginning.

1. By tonal quality I mean the level of the bass knob at which the speaker sounds best. Some speaker will sound good at center some will sound good at little more than center or near full level. Bass is being favored as it is the only variable in this scenario. Moving the treble or mid knob will not affect the signal being sent to the subwoofer.
2. Yes if amplifier does not have tone control it may or may not allow the speakers to perform at best level.
3. Yes this is what I am saying. Lower the bass knob lower the signal that will go into the subwoofer. And we will never keep the bass at full for speakers.
4. The direct mode is an option as per liking of the user. And I never said one has to keep the bass at full for speakers to perform best. But the subwoofer fed using high level will perform best if bass is at full.
5. These knobs will be more useful in case of high level inputs. But suppose you put the bass knob to minimum, then these functions of the subwoofer will be useless as the sub will get only high and mid frequencies and will not work at all. So lower the bass knob lower will be the performance from the subwoofer.
6. The tone control knob of bass controls some frequencies depending on the bass treble filter board it has. So if we reduce the bass knob the bass signal being sent to the subwoofer will also get reduced and the subwoofer will need more power and processing to bring those frequencies back. Lower the bass signal lower will be the subwoofer output. Exact frequency range cannot be determined. It may vary from amp to amp.
7. Yes! The pre-out and sub-out both send different signals to the active subwoofer compared to the high level signal. Pre-out sends entire signal and sub-out sends only low frequencies. Whereas high level signal will be after the signal is processed from the bass and treble board. It is not actually meant for the subwoofer but can be used in case option of sub-out or pre-out is not there.
8. In such a case what i believe the frequency wont be affected much but the output from the subwoofer can be affected to great extent if bass is reduced. The bass tone control does not control a specific frequency but entire spectrum of bass frequencies depending on the algo fed into it.

I have tried to explain the best I could. Rest I don't think there is any conclusion to be reached here. We both have our points. Let us let others jump in and comment.

All I wanted to say is sub-out or pre-out is always a better option than high level inputs. Like for example I faced a lot of issues in my honda car as it did not have pre-out. The system restricted bass from going to the speakers when volume was increased and this did not let the subwoofer perform well. Then I figured a way to bypass the internal system and the speakers were getting full bass even at high volume and subwoofer started performing well.

I am just sharing my experience and knowledge I have gained from experimenting with all these. I might be wrong and people are most welcome to correct me.

Hate to break it to you but what you have mentioned above is absolutely wrong and so is your understanding of it. You are greatly misinformed by who and when is for you to decide. Its gonna be a long journey and I hope you'll understand and learn alot from this forum and fellow members

 

[prateekatasniya]

Around 30 k

@selvaa_pr is selling his elac sub..
Looks like the best option for you as it's from the same brand and the subwoofer has built in EQ.
You might have to slightly increase your budget, but it seems to be a no brainer!
Good luck.

 

[ketansethi1987]

Keep reading till you do.


Hate to break it to you but what you have mentioned above is absolutely wrong and so is your understanding of it. You are greatly misinformed by who and when is for you to decide. Its gonna be a long journey and I hope you'll understand and learn alot from this forum and fellow members

It is just difference in opinion. Your understanding is wrong as per me and my understanding is wrong as per you. Point is we should appreciate each others understanding and carry on. Otherwise there is no end to this discussion.

Your knowledge is incorrect on this part.

The implementation of a sub woofer in a Home Cinema setup versus a Stereo setup can be different based on the equipment feeding the sub woofer.

Most stereo integrated amplifiers do not come with a sub woofer pre output. The only way to feed the sub woofer in this situation is High Level Input. You run two sets of speaker cables. All speakers receive the full signal bandwith. The sub woofers high level input filters out the signal and feeds the sub woofer amplifier only a low pass feed. You control the cross over, amount of bass using the dial at the back of the sub woofer. Its a one time effort. Once you set it, your stereo amplifier takes over. As you increase gain for your main speakers, an equal signal is fed to the sub woofer, while still maintaining a even gain level across all speakers. The sub woofer offers bass fill that your main speakers can't do. Thats the goal here.

If you have a stereo integrated or a pre amplifier with a sub out, you can choose to go High Level or Pre Out. The choice is yours.

You mean to say if we reduce the bass from and amplifier the speakers and the subwoofer (via high level) will still get full signal?

We have to increase the gain from the subwoofer when we reduce bass from the stereo amplifier, so I said the subwoofer will need to work harder since the bass from the full signal is reduced which is needed by the subwoofer.

 

[sandeepmohan]

You mean to say if we reduce the bass from and amplifier the speakers and the subwoofer (via high level) will still get full signal?

How on earth does one reduce bass from an amplifier and why would you do that?

Reducing bass will require an amplifier with Tone Controls or an equalizer. If you do have this control, I'd leave the bass control as Flat or set it to a level based on the low frequency capability of your main loudspeaker. Ideally you do not want to alter the signal unless the recording is so bad that it needs compensation of some kind.

 

[ketansethi1987]

How on earth does one reduce bass from an amplifier and why would you do that?

Reducing bass will require an amplifier with Tone Controls or an equalizer. If you do have this control, I'd leave the bass control as Flat or set it to a level based on the low frequency capability of your main loudspeaker. Ideally you do not want to alter the signal unless the recording is so bad that it needs compensation of some kind.

Of Course I am talking with tone control. Low frequency capability of speaker will mostly be less than of a subwoofer.

 

[skk]

Around 30 k

Strictly from the budget perspective and for the room size, I could recommend the Yamaha Woofer Speaker Yst-Sw315. I personally use it for movies and music, it gives a very good experience for the asking price. My setup includes Yamaha AV receiver HTR-3066 with Pioneer SP-FS52 and Yamaha Surrounds and Center channel.
Of course, if you increase your budget you would have more options as suggested by other forum members. Do audition before deciding and if possible audition for the combination that you have.
Needless to say, proper placement of the subwoofer makes a huge difference, so do experiment with its positioning to get the best response. Happy listening!

 

[arj]

I am not able to understand.


Exactly this was my point since the beginning.

1. By tonal quality I mean the level of the bass knob at which the speaker sounds best. Some speaker will sound good at center some will sound good at little more than center or near full level. Bass is being favored as it is the only variable in this scenario. Moving the treble or mid knob will not affect the signal being sent to the subwoofer.
2. Yes if amplifier does not have tone control it may or may not allow the speakers to perform at best level.
3. Yes this is what I am saying. Lower the bass knob lower the signal that will go into the subwoofer. And we will never keep the bass at full for speakers.
4. The direct mode is an option as per liking of the user. And I never said one has to keep the bass at full for speakers to perform best. But the subwoofer fed using high level will perform best if bass is at full.
5. These knobs will be more useful in case of high level inputs. But suppose you put the bass knob to minimum, then these functions of the subwoofer will be useless as the sub will get only high and mid frequencies and will not work at all. So lower the bass knob lower will be the performance from the subwoofer.
6. The tone control knob of bass controls some frequencies depending on the bass treble filter board it has. So if we reduce the bass knob the bass signal being sent to the subwoofer will also get reduced and the subwoofer will need more power and processing to bring those frequencies back. Lower the bass signal lower will be the subwoofer output. Exact frequency range cannot be determined. It may vary from amp to amp.
7. Yes! The pre-out and sub-out both send different signals to the active subwoofer compared to the high level signal. Pre-out sends entire signal and sub-out sends only low frequencies. Whereas high level signal will be after the signal is processed from the bass and treble board. It is not actually meant for the subwoofer but can be used in case option of sub-out or pre-out is not there.
8. In such a case what i believe the frequency wont be affected much but the output from the subwoofer can be affected to great extent if bass is reduced. The bass tone control does not control a specific frequency but entire spectrum of bass frequencies depending on the algo fed into it.

I have tried to explain the best I could. Rest I don't think there is any conclusion to be reached here. We both have our points. Let us let others jump in and comment.

All I wanted to say is sub-out or pre-out is always a better option than high level inputs. Like for example I faced a lot of issues in my honda car as it did not have pre-out. The system restricted bass from going to the speakers when volume was increased and this did not let the subwoofer perform well. Then I figured a way to bypass the internal system and the speakers were getting full bass even at high volume and subwoofer started performing well.

I am just sharing my experience and knowledge I have gained from experimenting with all these. I might be wrong and people are most welcome to correct me.

I think you are talking of your experience in car audio.

Most setups at home try to get the music from the source in as pristine a form as possible without tone controls. EQ in the digital domain is used by some to make sure Room nodes are respected. many of the really good systems do not have Tone controls.

Some of the best subwoofers which use line out take only a fraction of the signal and have a crossover setting to make sure only the relevant frequencies specific to that speaker * usually the 6 or 10 db point) are taken

eg if you have a book shelf at 50z at -3db and 40 at -6 db then the sub crossover is adjusted to make sure it augments the bass and it is never a cutoff from one and takeover by the other as then there is a tonality mismatch ( unless you have a tonality matched sub and speaker) .
You do not want the fundamental tone of a guitar at 80 hz sound different from its harmonic at 40..that defeats the purpose of a integrated sub for Audio

Strictly from the budget perspective and for the room size, I could recommend the Yamaha Woofer Speaker Yst-Sw315. I personally use it for movies and music, it gives a very good experience for the asking price. My setup includes Yamaha AV receiver HTR-3066 with Pioneer SP-FS52 and Yamaha Surrounds and Center channel.
Of course, if you increase your budget you would have more options as suggested by other forum members. Do audition before deciding and if possible audition for the combination that you have.
Needless to say, proper placement of the subwoofer makes a huge difference, so do experiment with its positioning to get the best response. Happy listening!

What would be your recommendation for a sub in the 1-2L category for music only which can take high level speaker signals ? In india I have only heard of REL and Rythmik so far.

 

[Phew]

I think you are talking of your experience in car audio.

Actually even in car audio this is not true, unless we use the filters(hpf and lpf) inside the Headunit(given the setup is running active) we cannot reduce the bass/treble signal. Tone controls be it car audio or home work the same way in boosting the bass and treble and finding a balance the user might like.

You can consider listening to sonus faber gravis 1(sealed) and 2(ported), I got lucky with the chance to audition them(was setup for another customer) with SF sonetto 1 and was very pleasantly surprised at how well they disguised themselves and performed in unison with the bookshelves. Even though they have similar specs to the rel they still offered slightly more headroom. The build quality was exceptional and certainly a league above the rel T series. Also I heard along with the SF and Rel was the MJ acoustics pro 50 mkIII. Though looks very basic it sounded the best among the three but unfortunately when I heard the price I was in for a big surprise.

 

[DilipPune]

Frankly for Elac debut 2.0 b62 speakers you don't need a Sub. Probably amplifier not able to drive the speakers well.

 

[chillumphile]

Frankly for Elac debut 2.0 b62 speakers you don't need a Sub. Probably amplifier not able to drive the speakers well.

I have the same speakers and initially was pretty satisfied with the bass for music.

However, after getting my REL sub, I just cant listen to them without the sub on.

They add so much character, depth and structure to the sound.

Makes the music 10x enjoyable so getting a sub eventually is a no brainer for me

 

[DilipPune]

I have the same speakers and initially was pretty satisfied with the bass for music.

However, after getting my REL sub, I just cant listen to them without the sub on.

They add so much character, depth and structure to the sound.

Makes the music 10x enjoyable so getting a sub eventually is a no brainer for me

Thats Good. Using with same SMSL amp ?

 

[chillumphile]

Thats Good. Using with same SMSL amp ?

I use Marantz PM8006 as my int amp