The Past, Present and Future of Vinyl

[arj]

Ajay your post is so true for so many places including Lucknow ( Fried Paranthas and Kababs). I believe we will always have the small old city in large cities forever. College street/ esplanade to Rabindra Sadan I remember very well..especially during the days the metro was new and people still preferred the trams and i spent some a few months there during post Engineering/pre MBA days meeting friends and in roadside food

Had a long chat with Asit some days back and am really looking forward to a trip to Kolkotta ..and if possible hear some of the music (and pick quite a few of those NOS hindi LPs too )

coming back to the topic, Consumerism/commercials are always the deciding factor for anything and going by the trends in TTs/LPs/Accessories, it will never go away so the future is not going to be without it, Hi Rez or no Hi Rez.
As for Vinyl the past was glorious driven by necessity, the present may be a bit confusing but the battle is neither won nor lost, the future I believe would be practical existentialism for all forms of music

In the end there is (1) some music you will only find in Vinyl, (2) some you will never find and get only on CDs and (3) some which would be there in both.

while the decision on how to play 1 or 2 is very clear, 3 is where the dispute would be ..that too clouded by so many factors like playback equipment, mastering etc etc.

Personally i find it to be some sort of non religious fanaticism, to completely disregard every other form and run only after one, but maybe because i believe in the philosophy of "Horses for courses"...and technology/equipment being the slave ( a word i find repugnant from the literal meaning)

 

[myriad]

Ajay,
I totally agree with arj's statement of "Horses for courses".
I listen to both vinyl and cd. If same album is played on vinyl and cd i prefer vinyl.
It's no point buying all the cds one have on vinyl because it will incur huge expenditure and moreover you will not get the same album available on vinyl. I try to desist buying the same album on vinyl which i have on cd. 95-96% of my collection is not common. I enjoy listening to both formats, but if you ask me to choose a winner, no question , it's vinyl.
Regards
Vasu

 

[Asit]

avidyarthy and arj,
Very much welcome to Kolkata and my place. Just let me know a bit in advance. However, the real experts in getting those NOS LPs are myriad, mahiruha, pratim and mksharan of this forum. I have bought a few, but not many, because I had trouble with my old TT. But these people know the exact vendor and the ways to deal with him. Of course I will also know as soon as I get a new TT.

Regards

OT (sorry):
Regarding the old world charm, I grew up right in the middle of the College Street area, lived there for the first 22 years of my life before I went abroad. The College Street still has some of the old magic, except that most of the thousand book shops along the railings of the Presidency College (my alma mater), Sanskrit College, Hindu School, Hare School, Calcutta Univeristy main building, College Square and University Institute (stone's throw away from my paternal house) now-a-days mostly sell books on various competitive exams instead of out-of-print yesteryears' gold mine of used books. Another thousand of bookshops selling new books also has gone more or less the same way. The famous coffee house is still there - all the budding poets and drama personalities do still frequent the place. But in our days, we used to see even people like Satyajit Ray occasionally step in. The coffee is still very good (very cheap) and the pakodas too if served hot. There is nothing like this anywhere else in the world, closest perhaps would be the shops across the Notre Dame church along the banks of the river Seine in Paris and Monmartre (a few kms away, has its charm because of the artistes painting in the open and all the cafes around).

 

[avidyarthy]

avidyarthy and arj,
Very much welcome to Kolkata and my place. Just let me know a bit in advance.

Regarding the old world charm, I grew up right in the middle of the College Street area, lived there for the first 22 years of my life before I went abroad. The College Street still has some of the old magic, except that most of the thousand book shops along the railings of the Presidency College (my alma mater), Sanskrit College, Hindu School, Hare School, Calcutta Univeristy main building, College Square and University Institute (stone's throw away from my paternal house) now-a-days mostly sell books on various competitive exams instead of out-of-print yesteryears' gold mine of used books. Another thousand of bookshops selling new books also has gone more or less the same way. The famous coffee house is still there - all the budding poets and drama personalities do still frequent the place. But in our days, we used to see even people like Satyajit Ray occasionally step in. The coffee is still very good (very cheap) and the pakodas too if served hot. There is nothing like this anywhere else in the world, closest perhaps would be the shops across the Notre Dame church along the banks of the river Seine in Paris and Monmartre (a few kms away, has its charm because of the artistes painting in the open and all the cafes around).

My Gawd!
You bring back ... old once-upon-a-time memories!!
My Uncle's house (mama bari) used to be at 87, Baithakkhana Road (bang opposite the dump truck parking yard). Every summers, from the late 60s till the mid 80s would land up there ... from Delhi. Been to 'most' places (mentioned) innumerable times. Somehow, lost 'regularity' with the city post the mid-80s. Have been trying to renew this 'regularity' only recently. BTW, I learnt swimming at College Square, way back in the 70s .... contacted para-typhoid due to the water quality ... ... but, thats again a part of growing up.

Would be in Kolkata from 6th June onwards ... around 10 days, with a brief outing to the hills, if possible. Yes, would love to have a peek at your system too!

 

[ajay124]

Saw your links and thought should mention my EMT was purchased from Studiotechnik Dusch.

prem

I admire the simple, clear sighted manner in which you go about buying your stuff. Truly 'hifi' with a 'vision'!

How did you discover and decide upon buying

...the Rethm speakers

...the Esoteric cdp

...the EMT tt

 

[prem]

Let me first write about my Rethm purchase.

I had always wanted to try SET amps at my place. Initially i was scared my little daughter would go and touch the glowing tubes when the amp was on. Once she crossed 5, i decided let me jump into them. I decided on the Dehavillands for the main reason that they were SET amps and could put out 30 watts. Also the favorable reviews helped. I was thinking of horn speakers from Germany to pair with them. When i mentioned this to Kara, the chief designer of Dehavilland, she expressed surprise and told me i should look at the Rethms which were being manufactured in my backyard. Honestly i had never heard of them. A little bit of googling threw up stuff like the Dehavilland - Rethm combo had won a few best sound of the show. My interest aroused and i called up Jacob at Rethm. Before committing i wanted to hear them. Unfortunately no one in Mumbai owned a pair. So the very next week i flew to Cochin to hear them. I was sufficiently impressed but realised they may not sing in my place since my room had many openings and large windows. I requested Jacob to drop in at my place the next time he was in Mumbai for some work and advise me accordingly. Fortunately Jacob was working on an architecture assignment in Pune and was able to come over to my place the very next week. He figured out it was a 50 : 50 chance that his speakers would work. Needles to say i took the chance and it worked out pretty ok. Initially i had the Second Rethms, which were upgraded to the Saadhanas Version 1 and now i have the Saadhanas Version 2.

 

[prem]

The EMT purchase was a pretty much easy decision.

I was always of the opinion the pre 80s recordings should be heard on a turntable and the more modern recordings should be heard on a good digital rig. The first time around i was not too happy with my table purchase. I figured out that if i wanted to listen to pre 80 recordings, it probably made sense to look at equipment that were made in those days and optimised for those recordings. I started talking to lots of vinyl lovers across the globe. The EMT was one table that seemed very idiot proof to use and was also built to last a lifetime. Others like Lenco L75, Garrard 301 or Thorens 124 all needed to be modded to sound better. The EMT was the only one from that era which needed no modifications. Once i had decided on the EMT, i was clear i needed a piece which would be cleaned and serviced to operate at the factory specs. There are 3 people who are experts at this. I felt comfortable with Studiotechnik Dusch and decided to go with them.

 

[prem]

And finally the Esoteric.

Very early in my hifi adventures i realised that entry and mid level cd players never cut ice with me. In the mid 90s i went for the Levinson and EAD stuff. Around 2004, i read about the Esoteric and was sufficiently impressed to order them without any demo. I did this mainly because the Esoteric P70 D70 was priced at $7500 each in those days. My gut feel told me this was a steal and i knew sooner or later the prices would double. In fact Esoteric withdrew their P70 D70 very soon and introduced other models priced much higher. In fact the P70 transport which i had is almost the equivalent of the current top of the line Esoteric transport P01 which costs $30000. I have never regretted my Esoteric purchase.

 

[square_wave]

I have twice compared the same music on Vinyl and cd. Once on a top of the line complete Linn system (fully tweaked LP12 vs top of the line linn cd player). Then very recently at the listening room of Jochen. SOTA Einstein electronics feeding the blumenhofer fun 17 speakers (Einstein cd player vs the scheu LP player).

Both the mediums are very entertaining if done right but the presentation is very different. There are fundamental differences in many parameters and how it appeals to ones senses. What one prefers will completely depend on what one likes and also on ones music. To me vinyl if done right beats redbook in many parameters which is important to me.

Practically looking it, if one prefers a very analogue sound to ones music, vinyl is a great option. The many sins committed by producers on digitized music available on cd can be avoided. For many such lifeless recordings, vinyl is a life saver.

One very relevant aspect is the availability of music in Vinyl for the music you listen to. For example, if you are able to source sacds or high resolution downloads for all the western classical music you listen to and you are able to accommodate a very resolving playback system for them, you need to think twice about vinyl.

If you are a music lover first (which I think you are), you will need both Vinyl and cd in your system !

Very practical thinking rather than a tryst with the many technical aspects is what one needs to do when it comes to choosing between vinyl and digital.

 

[ajay124]

"Actually there are more than just a thing or two there - the plinth, the platter, the motor, the drive, the arm, the arm mount, the cartridge, the stylus - tipped or nude, elliptical, or fine line, shibata etc, the adjustments of the arm and cartridge, the bearings, the effective tone arm mass, the compliance of the cartridge, the resonant frequency, the cabling inside the arm etc etc."

@asit

It would be great , if you and the other founts of vinyl knowledge on the forum, could share what they know about everything that goes into buying the right turntable.
Which are the best turntables in the low, mid and high price range?
Which are the issues that need to be understood before making a buy?
Where can you source the turntables from?
Are there competent service centers in India for repairs and spares?
Which are the best phono stages in different price ranges?
Do most turntables require modifications or are there more plug and play and 'idiot proof' models like EMT?

@vinyl collectors

Which are the good shops for buying used vinyl in India?
Is the stuff neatly stacked or does one need plenty of time to forage around?
Are there any 'methods' for checking condition and quality, while buying used stuff?
Which are the best online sites for buying used/new vinyl?
What size? 12" 10" 7"?
What speed? 33 1/3, 45, 78 ?
What weight? 125g, 150g, 180g, 200+ g?
Pressings?
Mastering?
Labels?

 

[avidyarthy]

What speeds? ..... 33 ... 45 rpm?

You would 'generally' find 33 on the larger discs and 45 on the smaller ones. Most new generation TTs would have both the speeds. The vintage ones would have 16 / 33 / 45 / 78. Would suggest not to consider the 78s ... since, the wear and tear could be more on them. Both, the 33 and 45 discs produce the desired sound imaging.

Condition ...? Hold the disc tilting towards a light source and look out for the scratches / indentations across the tracks. The 'lesser' the better, if buying used stuff. Don't think there is any other means to check on 'remaining' life and quality other than playing the disc in full before buying.

I possess close to 30 LPs (Bengali) of 78 .... don't play them anymore on my TT as they had injured the ceramic cartridge twice.

 

[bpbagchi]

I hv a set of 12 vinyls of western classical released by readers digest. Get a vinyl spinner and I ll lend u some. You ve posted so many useful n informative posts tht from my side,even the postage would b on me. Alas, wont sell any.

Dear friend,
Read your post, you have philips ga 242 turntable, I have two such turntables pl guide me where to get spare styluses and belts, how do you get it serviced, there is frequent speed fluctuation in the tts which are perhaps due to problem in electronic circuit
with regards

 

[bpbagchi]

It seems you have ga 242 tt i have two let me know how you manage spares and service

 

[abhijitwadekar]

Hi,
One of the ways of checking at the past usage of vinyl is tilting it and checking the window reflection. if it appears sharp and well demarcated its sparingly used and in good cundition. if the light edges are smudgy and reflection isnt clear then its probably used a lot and dont sound great

 

[stevieboy]

Which are the best turntables in the low, mid and high price range?
Which are the issues that need to be understood before making a buy?
Where can you source the turntables from?
Are there competent service centers in India for repairs and spares?
Which are the best phono stages in different price ranges?
Do most turntables require modifications or are there more plug and play and 'idiot proof' models like EMT?

@vinyl collectors

Which are the good shops for buying used vinyl in India?
Is the stuff neatly stacked or does one need plenty of time to forage around?
Are there any 'methods' for checking condition and quality, while buying used stuff?
Which are the best online sites for buying used/new vinyl?
What size? 12" 10" 7"?
What speed? 33 1/3, 45, 78 ?
What weight? 125g, 150g, 180g, 200+ g?
Pressings?
Mastering?
Labels?

Hi Ajay,

Well the list of good TTs would vary. The most popular suspects are the mid level Projects, the Regas, MusicHalls etc which you can check out at NeedleDoctor to get an idea of what's available. Performance you'd have to read up to see each one's relative's strengths cos arm/cartridge combination also comes into play.

In India I doubt many dealers would understand the nuances of TTs, Sushil Anand of Nova Audio seems to be an exception. Buying second hand would get you superb deals cos TTs rarely have issues. I'm not talking about the kind of second hand TTs we get here in the Sherwood/Dual/etc range. I'm talking about serious mid-high end stuff from good names. Buying these saves you a good bit, netting you a higher performing TT than a brand new one at a lower level. More often than not, only the cart would need to be replaced due to wear.

You need to decide which format to buy into - belt drive, direct drive or idler drive. Issues to be aware of is what you'd need to do to set up the TT. Eg suspension TTs like the Linn require more care to set up. Most belt drives are plug and play except for the cartridge alignment part which is standard across all three drive types.

You need to see how modifiable the TT is. Leeway to upgrade plinth/platter, adding motor power supply, a different arm/modded arm, and the range of cartridges that a particular arm matches. All these give you more options to get the table close to your desired 'ideal' sound. You could also choose a plug and play model which won't give you any option to mod anything but you'd be stuck. However at the very high end level, this wouldn't be an issue since the stock tables would be high performers by themselves.

So for that you'll need to read up on what popular arms are there in the market and which tables go with which arms and which carts go with which arms. All of which you'll find in reviews/forums and the info will keep adding up. Way too fragmented to make a 'list' here

Eg if your final aim is to see what an Ortofon SPU sounds like, the most likely pairing is an SME arm so you'd need to budget for that arm and a a table like the Garrard 301 that is known to mate with both combos well. So long term vision is very useful even before you buy something.

(The above example is a personal one which is why I got a Garrard 301 with an SME arm, after many years I'd like to save up to see what the SPU sound is all about )

Best phonostages again vary. There are just so many good ones out there. The most important part is however which phonostage matches the cartridge you choose. That's key and very critical. You can get this drastically wrong with simply a random well known phono and a random well known cart. Good marriages are what makes a good vinyl honeymoon for you.
Again a personal example: I got my Lyrita tube phono with a step up transformer installed. It is custom made for the Denon DL 103 I intend to buy for the SME arm. Currently I use the MM input which matches my high output MC BluePoint No 2 cart. Viren's made the MC section so I can change resistors to match another cart if I want to later on also. Once again, deciding where you want to go affects decisions you make early on. I've not heard the Denon but from reviews I know that its musical approach will do the trick for me. Plus it's a very well documented pair with the SME and Garrard 301.

As for buying vinyl, the usual suspects in Bombay/Bangalore/Kolkata for second hand stuff and any number of online sites. Acoustic Sounds packs their vinyl very well. Buying second hand you really can't make out quality. Some scratched records play perfectly while others that have pristine surfaces are terribly noisy and ticky even after cleaning.

Most foreign pressings will sound good. You could get more analytical and for each album there will be one 'desirable' pressing from Japan or Germany or UK. Varies with each album. Remastered ones by good vinyl guys like Bernie Grundman will sound good. 180/200gm vinyl won't warp as easily. You can build a good 331/3 collection. 45s sound better due to tech reasons. Manav made a nice post once here, or was it that guy from the US? 78s require a different needle to play and require more care, quite heavy and they seem to me to be ready to fall and break all the time I have mostly 33s, a handful of 45s. Zilch 78s.

Labels again is a nutworld where different labels command different prices. There are sites that guide you but I don't remember any right now.

If you're buying new vinyl, the mastering/engineering guys like Grundman/Kevin Gray and where it's pressed like RTI are two measures of how good the vinyl will be.

Regards

 

[akd]

good news

following HMV LPs are coming soon

DARR (*ing Shahrukh Khan)
MOHABATEIN
HUM AAPKE HAI KAUN (double LP)
GURUDEV

MRP will be hopefully 799/- except for third one (1599/-)
the fourth one may be a surprise for some, but for R.D.Burman fans its nothing new, the previous release (1988/89) came with out a cover and only a few copies pressed, so now it costs around 4K to 5K, so it will be a mixture of relief and pleasure for Hindi film music followers

get ready for the "damage" in the wallet

 

[entsurgeon]

It seems you have ga 242 tt i have two let me know how you manage spares and service

Dehradun isnt exactly small city. Frequent kabadiwalas n see if smone has used vinyls. Ask em who else regularly buys from them. There sure must b a few. Contact them n ask em who services tts in dehradun. 242 isn t a complicated model. Mass mkt nd most recording guys used it as source. M sure some old hag services them in your city. Speed fluctuation could be due to worn out belts. There are 2 adjustment screws for 33 n 45 rpm seperately. Not big issue to learn urself. New spares arent available so most spares are from similarly specced equipments or old donor tts.
Regarding carts, classic 100/400/700 were popular models. Not available now as fresh stock. Cheapest audiophile option is audio technica at 91 t available in chennai. Address n phone numbr available in another thread. Costs about 1500 inr. You hv various shure n ortofon options in 3-5k range.
Please take pains. Vinyl fever shouldn t end.
Ps: wat titles do u have?

 

[jls001]

Long post warning! And opinionated ramblings warning, too

Coming back to the original post on the past, present and future of vinyl, my personal take is that vinyl is very much alive and kickin'! And making an unexpected comeback as to be considered a serious medium by music labels. So a corollary by deduction is that it has a rather bright future. Of course only time and chance will tell.

Further, the support system or ecosystem (of phono pre-amps, cartridges, tonearms, etc) is also growing correspondingly. And this spans budget models as well as mid-priced models and cost-no-object models. Which is a good thing as today's cost-no-object model will have beneficial effects on tomorrow's mid ranger.

As to the "religious" debate on whether analog vinyl is superior as a source compared to digital compact discs, my personal take is that both have their strengths. There are way too many titles I own, or would love to own, that are available only on CDs. Fortunately, the inverse is also true. I have been fortunate enough to collect many titles on LPs (and a few 45s) that I can't even begin to dream of finding in CDs.

If pushed to the wall to make a stand, I will be a fence sitter. I know that my current CDp inveigles a good chunk of the recorded material due to the limitations of its electronics (being built to a cost), and I would love to upgrade it to a much better player in future (the usual caveat about funds being a limiting factor applies strongly here). Hopefully its a matter of time and finding a player I like within my self-imposed budget. And I hope continue enjoying music on CDs to an even greater degree than I do now. And I will also gladly live with the pops and hisses that is so much part and parcel of listening to vinyl records. As to vinyl gear, I do not see myself undertaking a major upgrade anytime in the near future as I feel I now own a fairly good phono stage and tables. There are a few pending upgrades - get a better arm for the Thorens TD 160 B Mk II and complete the plinth build, get a replacement stylus for the Shure V Type III on the TD124 and (hopefully) build a slate plinth. In the distant future, may be get myself a Technics SP10 Mark III if I can find one in good shape.

End of long post! There, you were warned
Joshua

 

[wlg]

Hi
My story, I first had a Telefunken Record player, then Sanyo spool tape, BSR turntable, I loved music so built my own amp with two EL84's for output and philips dual conned speakers, all this before 1975, then went out to sea bought a JVC turntable which I still use. I have been collecting LP's from 1968 till 1980. I used to record LP's onto cd's hence met a lot of customers who wanted to get rid of their LP collection, old Readers Digest, Western Classical collection some with a good collection from the early 60's one who was very proud of his mint collection of Jazz LP's on the Atlantic and Verve Labels, if anyone is interested in purchasing these LP's email me and I will try and get in touch with the sellers who live mainly in Mumbai (Bandra).

 

[ajay124]

NEIL DIAMOND/BROOKLYN ROADS
YouTube - ‪Brooklyn Roads Neil Diamond‬‏

Does this video give a whiff of what vinyl is about? Both the good and the bad? There is a richness and honesty about the sound which is present even in a video. But there is also a hiss (acceptable) and loss of information (unacceptable) .

YouTube - ‪Brooklyn Roads Neil Diamond (1968)‬‏

And this I suppose, would be a CD recording. With all it's good and bad. More information. More detail. More bells and whistles. Yet a little distant. A little lacking in emotion. Less involving.