Thread to avoid cheapo dabba(small cheap) speakers

[kaushik]

We have 70% consumers attracted to so called slim low cost speakers with fancy features .

Let us face the reality in this thread ...
examples

1.

2.

3.

I see most people taking fancy looking speakers that cost less say 1 -2k range , the common believe is that the new technology has made possible to have speakers in less size. This thread we will discuss
why not to buy (referring to cheap ones) those fancy items[thread is for newbies]
USB speakers :
Marketing tricks :
- good looks
-pmpo rating

pc usb speakers have a real bad component lineup eg. a100Rs amp+dac, 100Rs speaker..they will not cost more (<900Rs) ,suffer from plastic resonance.
soQuality : way too bad

2.1 speakers :
Marketing tricks
- made of wood , come one no one uses wood for that cheap price
-some fancy parameters
Snr:80Db (;0 oh god)
-P.M.PO wattage

Most people thing the new audio technology has replaced bulk speakers with this

Most 2.1 have
A) a lowpass filter that just boosts the bass part so that the 2inch tiny woofer runs at extremes and produces a artificial bassa enhanced sounds .At best they will go till 50Hz a produce a , a ordinary amp for woofer
mudddy bass
B) a optional filter that feeds to so called satellites , most satellites produce 700Hz to 16khz with plenty of distortion




cntd...

 

[kaushik]

The 2.1s are real compromise , as the mids are missed in say 100-700hz range .

Some will use piezo tweeters , they mainly bleed your ears .
coming to internal amplifier, the amp will consist of pretty low cost components incl capacitor , carbon resistors , cheap vol pot .
These components will add to the poorly designed amp.

Amp will be sluggish, low cost IC based with a small power supply that just runs ...

people know a little about these , many fall in to the brand name trap like philips /creative/edifier

i have tested all three ..:sad:

 

[Vijay_s]

I use i-ball tarang PC speakers bought 6 years back, I still feel it worth for money, bought it for 2.5K.

Again it depends on the kind of usage.

 

[kaushik]

I use i-ball tarang PC speakers bought 6 years back, I still feel it worth for money, bought it for 2.5K.

Again it depends on the kind of usage.

just i wanted to bring details of the cheap speakers ..

is it worth or not is upto people .. i also bough a 150RS woofer, played in matka suring school days , felt worth paying
it is like real gold and fake gold both sells ...both worth money spent

when you know what you can get best with money you no longer waste the money on some huge compromises ..

soon as know how increases people no longer will waste money for such speakers ..(unless use is for skype call kind of thing )
Eg. 2.3k spent on such items can be used to get a decent interconnect for real audio setup ', most old pc speakers have < 30% resale value

 

[trittya]

when you know what you can get best with money you no longer waste the money on some huge compromises ..

Very well said, Kaushik Bhai. Bravo!

 

[jaudere]

I appreciate the effort to educate newbees but I would like to share my opinion.As long as I like the sound , I will be least bothered about the innards/box material/kind of filter used etc. I think the final idea is to get the sound that makes one happy rather than getting accurate sound. So it depends on user and his priorities. No matter even if you spend rs 1lac on interconnects, it cannot play music by itself. So if my budget is 3k, I cannot buy one RCA cable for 3k and be happy but I will be definitely happy if I bu I ball Tarang because it will play some music. It can be compared to hotel. Best kitchen practices, utensils, cleanliness, use of fresh materials, waiters wearing gloves, highly paid chefs do not in any way guarantee that the dish prepared there will satisfy your taste buds where as you may just love paani puri/sandwich/ cutting chai on roadside footpath. Each has its own place. I personally use separates (lossless formats on netbbook,bit perfect player like foobar, DAC, pre, power) but like many others, I started with 2.1 computer speakers 10 years back and probably that is the way it should be. That makes one appreciate step up with each set up in better way.

 

[trittya]

I appreciate the effort to educate newbees but I would like to share my opinion.As long as I like the sound , I will be least bothered about the innards/box material/kind of filter used etc. I think the final idea is to get the sound that makes one happy rather than getting accurate sound. So it depends on user and his priorities. No matter even if you spend rs 1lac on interconnects, it cannot play music by itself. So if my budget is 3k, I cannot buy one RCA cable for 3k and be happy but I will be definitely happy if I bu I ball Tarang because it will play some music. It can be compared to hotel. Best kitchen practices, utensils, cleanliness, use of fresh materials, waiters wearing gloves, highly paid chefs do not in any way guarantee that the dish prepared there will satisfy your taste buds where as you may just love paani puri/sandwich/ cutting chai on roadside footpath. Each has its own place. I personally use separates (lossless formats on netbbook,bit perfect player like foobar, DAC, pre, power) but like many others, I started with 2.1 computer speakers 10 years back and probably that is the way it should be. That makes one appreciate step up with each set up in better way.

I second most of what Jaudere has posted here. Very much in keeping with my take on the same. Couldn't have put it across better. I have heard lakhpati speakers that didnt impress me overmuch especially considering the price-point. Conversely, I have heard some very humble/humble DIY speakers that made me "sit back" in wonder and amazement.

@ Jaudere, I do believe your OB and other creations fall into the latter category, No?

 

[jaudere]

@ Trittya: For me, they are just awesome but it is a fact that you always have a soft corner for your own creations Let me see what Yuvaraki(a forum member) says. He is visiting my place this Saturday evening. By the way, I have just the OBs, no other creations.. I am too lazy to venture into electronics part of it. May be when my son grows up and shows some interest in it, I will do something. He is just 3 year old. So its a long shot.

 

[trittya]

@ Trittya: For me, they are just awesome but it is a fact that you always have a soft corner for your own creations Let me see what Yuvaraki(a forum member) says. He is visiting my place this Saturday evening. By the way, I have just the OBs, no other creations.. I am too lazy to venture into electronics part of it. May be when my son grows up and shows some interest in it, I will do something. He is just 3 year old. So its a long shot.

I have been following your DIY post on HFV ever since I got back after nearly half a year of absence. I daresay, I was pretty much thinking on similar lines but never got down/around to it for professional and/or domestic compulsions.

We'll discuss that elsewhere for fear of going OT but for now, all I'll say is that I am with you on the OB bandwagon.

Nevertheless, I must add here that the dipole phenomenon isn't everyone's cup of whatever (tea, coffee or me, eh?). In fact, the world has got so used to the boxy soundwaves, that (most of) it doesn't subscribe to the idea of becoming/being "openly baffled".

Having said that, I do recommend that the OP considers a simple OB design like yours in keeping with the purpose of this thread, albeit adapted suitably to his kind of listening. I am sure we can take this further.

@Kaushik
Whatsay you, Bhai?

Regards, All

 

[kaushik]

i dont want to debate anything but will leave upto the user ..

even the average spender also can manage to get things for less
take old philips speakers,a topping , a basic DAC =10k he can kick start rather than so called pc speakers...


i never wanted to say expensive system is best ..
just lift the cover of marketing on those fast selling fancy items inthe name of speakers .

lets move towards proper setup , let there be distortion, small sound stage , atleast pass the pass the stereo signal to decent speakers , w/o adding the mud of low cost filters , can we say lets use a proper amp be it in a cardboard box ,

i am not also moving to details of electronics , copper strands , solder types ,pcb thickness..

so I invite the experienced guys to contribute to reduce the use of work-of-art-alias-ear-pain speaker systems

[any ways i also started with 2.1 apart from old memories ,donl like a thing on that garbage]

 

[haisaikat]

Last month I was in need of a TV for my bedroom, wall mounted and LCD were my lookouts considering my 10K -14K budget range. Then I realized that I already had a Dell SP2309W LCD monitor which had been lying unused due to my desktop being converted to HTPC. So I purchased a swivel wall mount from ebay for INR 350, placed the monitor on the wall. Next I got local carpenter make out a wall rack above the screen to hold two speakers and two racks. In one I placed one Dish HD STB with HDMI out and connected that to DVI in of monitor (via a DVI-HDMI converter, for 150 INR from ebay again) and ASUS OPlay media player to HDMI in. Hence last need was to buy a speaker and for that I finally purchased plastic bodied Intex 2475 Beat 2.1 package for 1900 from flipkart, plays SD card, has remote and FM.. what else I need, sounds not bad for a TV and media player casual output. For less than 6K (incl rack and electrician charges) I have my TV. Does it sound different than my dedicated HT? Yes, inferior in some cases but cosnidering its intent and price I do not regret buying it, works fine for me. Connected RCA audio out from oPlay and STB to the Intex. Since the LCD monitor had automatic input switching I play only one source at a time (DVI / HDMI) and thye monitor automatically switches to it.

 

[jaudere]

This is @ OP : 1) Everything cheap is not garbage 2)Everything costly is not gold . I think you already agree to first 2 points 3)Everyone is not blessed (or should I say cursed) with discerning ears 4) Everyone is not blessed with the money to buy gold 5) I hope you have done blind testing before coming to any conclusion.6)A bad system is a bad system regardless of whether it is 2/2.1/5.1/plastic/MDF/acrylic/ active/passivez/costing rs 2k/ 200k. 7) I still love my old Artis 2.1 speakers. Whatever crap is filled inside the plastic still makes me happy and I use it when I go to my second home. What would you say if someone with a budget of 1 lac does audition of 1.5 lac system and calls it a crap? I can remember exactly but this is a recent thread on forum from a member who owned woodstock amplifier & speakers.

I will agree that the PMPO figures are bloated,many times power is rated at 10% THD,
They use digital amplifiers with all their pros and cons,
They may not use proper crossover(the woofer runs without filter and tweeter just has a capacitor for protections in many cheap 2 way speakers),
The wires used are thin,
Connectors are many times proprietary and odd and do not allow experimentation without cutting the wires


Even after considering all this, I have seen many systems giving pleasing sound when heard alone. The problem will start if you start doing A-B testing between system costing 2k and 2k. Even then , the cheap systems may do well except in lower octaves. Personally iIfeel that it is a flaw of 2.1 confuguration. Something recorded as 2 channels , when artifically split into 2.1, may not sound good.

 

[theredcommando]

As long as those manufacturers are not faking anything(like brand name), its ok. But if someone is falsely claiming something(like high quality or frequency response from 20-10k etc) then it should be cleared here.

But something not having something, does not make it bad. It might not be required and appropriate for that particular use, price point. Its the final user who decides what is worth. They are not selling crappy speakers for lakhs of rupees. They are selling ok performers for 2-3k which is alright IMHO.

 

[kaushik]

apart from the debate part by jaudere ,i agree last 2 lines
i will like to post "component details" rather than commenting on "A bad system is a bad system regardless of whether it is 2/2.1/5.1/plastic/MDF/acrylic/ active/passivez/costing rs 2k/ 200k.
"
BTW in 2K get me 1 speaker that dont bleed ears ,i will pay for 3x its price.

need to understand main point of the discussion
-thread is not to fight against sellers,20-4000Rs speaker will always sale here
-consciously if consumer does a buy for TV,corner room,kitchen that is fine

lets make it more informative like Lampizator , why not show the incapability of cheap speakers (via pictures ,facts) rather then debating on things like
'there are guys who spent 3L on system,still it is bad'
let there be bad costly systems why we will dig more ? aint it off topic ?

my questions:
1.arent any newbies here who are planning a dream start of audio system for music listening with 2.1 edifier,fnd,iball etc mini boxes(speakers ??)
2.will it not be good make them face reality
3.why leading stores dont keep topping,fiio,lowcost BS speaker , proper stereo components ,it is not the price even expensive TV,fridges also they stock
it is buyers limited knowhow that makes him to take the call at 2.4k

in sort lets build buyer awareness ..

 

[jaudere]

What bleed one's ears may be soothing to someone else. of topic but let me share, Sometime back I read that A farmer was listening to rock songs at night and that helped to drive away pigs who used to damage the field.

For me , heavy metal bleed my ears regardless of the system used while "Yeh shaam mastani" by rajesh Khanna (Aradhana) ever so soothing to ears on a simple boombox

About the questions raised

1)A lot of newbies do plan to start with edifier and likes.

2) Facing reality is good and important . While explaining about good speakers and amps, they should also be made aware that compressed audio formats are not so good and connecting portable mp3 player directly to such systems does not give good sound.
In fact, I would rate the source to be more important than the the speaker and amp. The edifier and likes sound quite decent , at least to me, if A) the source is good, well recorded uncompressed music
B) The bass and treble knobs are kept neutral rather than at their upper limit (a practice that I have seen frequently with newbies, a lot of them are obsessed with the bass)
C) The system is placed in decent sized room at proper level including proper placement of subwoofer.

They should also informed about how room acoustics play very important role in sound.

3) The shopkeepers will sell whatever the public demands.
I have seen people disappointed with a very good sub because it did not give the thump or boom in songs. That it what they want from a sub where as subwoofer is mainly for rumbling/blast sounds in movies.I have seen many shopkeepers themselves not exposed to good gear. I have seen interesting faces from salesmen when I ssaid Maranz/NAD/HK, names alien to them.


In fact, to educate newbies, the following thread might be more helpful rather than pushing them to spend more than they initially intended.

" How to get best out of your el cheapo dabba 2.1 speakers"

Nike are very good but expensive shoes, Power are good VFM shoes but still cheaper shoes like Paragon/Lakhani are sold and bought. In this scenario, I would spend more energy in teaching the buyer about how to choose correct shoe (of their favourite brand) according to size and usage rather than telling them that you can buy a shoe lace/insole of Nike in the same cost of A Paragon/ Lakhani shoe.

Hope this clarifies my point. As I said, the intent to educate newbies is very good and I appreciate it.

 

[kaushik]

Is it needed , how to live with keroscene lamp even if led/solar are available ?

converting lakhani to nike ? eeh .. i have battery down situation here ..haveu ever...real nike,aah i will not ask!?.. . .may be some people from NASA have applied home grown technology

2.1 mini box and audiophile sounds :lol::lol:, placement calculator ?

can some people stop irrelevant examples
" my mochi(shoe guy) listens to old songs via 200Rs radio, labours listen to songs in mobile , smooth "


achha then what is el-cheapo your source @jaudere to match 2000Rs speaker,


that will be daydream,please give us the rich information

VFM means value for money,also depends what your value level is,
i remember "baburau aapte" in a movie he used to use a bucket to get water from swimming pool...

 

[jaudere]

Hmmm,

Seems that my posts have upset you so much that you couldn't even complete some sentences out of anger. Doesn't matter. I think newbies are getting different kind of education from the conversation. Lets see one by one.


converting lakhani to nike ? eeh .. i have battery down situation here ..haveu ever...real nike,aah i will not ask!?.. .

About Nike, the question is not whether you or I wear Nike. The question is what Newbie is expecting and at what budget. We are educating Newbies right?

By the way, after reading this sentence (especially 'real nike') I remembered a dialogue by Arshad Warsi from Ishquia: "Tumhara ishq ishq or hamaraa ishq... Sex?"



achha then what is el-cheapo your source @jaudere to match 2000Rs speaker,
Everyone will (hopefully) agree that regardless of amp and speakers, uncompressed source material sound better than compressed. So If mobile/PMP is a source, .wav/FLAC formats should be used rather than mp3 at 128kbps. A newbie may not afford DAC/CD player or even if affording , will think that paying 20k for CD player is ridiculous.
About listening songs on Mobile, I think all will agree that songs stored on data card sound much better than radio songs : Why? Better SNR and no external interference. So That is what better source is without spending much. I personally use my mobile as digital source feeding into a DAC and from there to integrated amp and then to crossoverless open baffles. But I won't recommend that to a newbie.



" my mochi(shoe guy) listens to old songs via 200Rs radio, labours listen to songs in mobile , smooth "

I think, the mochi or labourer is more happy about the songs than an "audiophile" who keeps on fiddling with settings, cables, keeps on upgrading, and still is looking for something better because he is convinced that what he is getting is not very good.Even I had these issues but my nerves have almost settled now. I know what I like, how to get it and that it is more important to spend on good quality music rather than anything else.

Lets not forget that everyone has different music taste, even newbie will have some taste to start with and he will rate the sound of a system according to that. Telling him that your taste itself is wrong because you are using el-cheapo 2k speakers is odd. He may go for different system if his taste changes over time or he may not.

Is it needed , how to live with keroscene lamp even if led/solar are available ?
Those who can afford LED/Solar should definitely go for LED/Solar . They are much more echo friendly and efficient.But if kerosene lamp is cheaper and serves the purpose of user, if it is is easily serviceable locally, then yes, it is better than LED/Solar. By the way , there are audiophiles who use and swear by Class A amps which are electricity guzzlers with poor efficiency.



2.1 mini box and audiophile sounds :lol::lol:, placement calculator ?
Speakers , regardless of cost sound better when positioned correctly. I have personally seen a lot of people placing speakers near ceiling (one of them on this forum itself who has placed expensive speakers that way, I hope it is not you) or subwoofer under a table or two speakers at different levels or keeping speakers on unsteady surface etc.. Simple tricks like keeping satellites at ear level, keeping subwoofer port away from wall, not keeping sub under a table to avoid boominess can make a whole lot of difference.

In fact, without proper placement, even a costly system will not sound good.


VFM means value for money,also depends what your value level is.

A golden sentence. I will rewrite it

VFM means value for money, also depends on what a newbie's value level is.

Apply it to newbie rather than me (because newbie is going to get educated, not me) and you will get my point (hopefully).

If someone is asking for best 2.1 system in 2.5k, the role of an experienced individual is tell the person all the options available, and which is probably the best among those (sticking to budget). Now if someone asks me about best 2.1 system in 2.5k, and if I tell him "boss, you better buy Rs. 1k interconnects because they will give you better sound with a 6k system which you should buy later when you save money" then I am being foolish.

Any more questions?

 

[kaushik]

i was laughing with two audio enthusiasts at office on the way you pulled lakhani/nike ,sorry i did not had time to properly address the fun filled lines ..

" i cant compete with debaters "
there are some people who can prove :
kerosene lamp is better than LED lamp
nike is same as lakhhani ,who will not laugh..how can i debate ,other wise atleast applied for a political party!!

i have to salute so called experienced audiophile(fool)s
audiophile take conscious upgrades ,if someone fiddles with all stuff that is his allergy /mania no one can help isnt it better to realize that all people dont have defect that you have
[lack of technical know how on the synergy of the system components may be one reason ]

for the source part @jaudere : this is unfair !!
your solution "phone+dac=12k" that is too high (are u giving free?, newbies will be very happy)
you have wrote essay on mp3/FLAC but my question was simple do you have any source for so tight budgeted newbies ,

come on we are waiting for your rich pointers ,obviously u know so tight budgeted newbies will not spend more than 800Rs on source

reading your 'experienced' essays on placement/kerosene/my newbie nature ..we hope you will give a solution .

for all others information ,
i will resume my dont buy hardware parts after we get perfect newbie system from our experienced member

i never wanted to write for people for whom saving money is more priority than starting with a decent system,also i cant convince people who cant pay a little ...

Cant we develop habit of exploring workings of devices practically ,sytems than copy pasting know how from online discussions and fill threads with them ,yes many people will like/agree those long sentences but did we bring some core knowledge?

i dont do that ..call me a fool who explores chips /amp types/tests in real world brings some learning for peoples benefits , i may be wrong at my observations why not point that technically...

 

[jaudere]

Please read my posts again.

kerosene lamp is better than LED lamp:

I never said this. I have written, whoever affords LED/Solar should buy it because it is better. Kerosene will still have its place among few people due to cost, convenience and easy serviceability.

I have personally seen people in villages going back to kerosene lamps because solar panels were getting stolen again and again. That's a practical problem where kerosene lamp has its place. Telling someone to use solar is very easy but one needs to know ground reality to implement it.


nike is same as lakhhani

>> I did not say Nike is same as Lakhani. I am saying that If someone wants to buy Lakhani, one should instruct him about how to choose good shoe among Lakhani. One should not tell the man, "Don't buy Lakhani, buy Nike " without trying to find out why in the first place he opted for Lakhani


isnt it better to realize that all people dont have defect that you have
[lack of technical know how on the synergy of the system components may be one reason ]
[/B].
Well, What is the exact defect that I have? I didn't get that.

Who needs to know technical know how. The only thing one should know is what kind of music makes him happy. One should Forget synergy/impedance matching/input or output sensitivity/damping factor/ FR curves/TS parameters/active /passive XOs/Zobels etc etc if he is buying a readymade system complete with speakers and amp. He should just connect the source try all the genres he likes and see whether the sound is to his liking or no.

If one is building speakers/amps or if he is getting separate components, one needs to go into the details (which is not the case for a person going to buy a 2.1 system)


for the source part @jaudere : this is unfair !!
your solution "phone+dac=12k" that is too high (are u giving free?, newbies will be very happy).
you have wrote essay on mp3/FLAC but my question was simple do you have any source for so tight budgeted newbies ,

The solution is for me and not for a newbie and I have reached the solution with trials and errors.

For a newbie buying 2.5k system,The source is mobile phone playing FLAC and .wav when a person is on budget. Just FYI, many Nokia phones (and probably otehrs as well, never used anything other than Nokia) play .wav out of the box and FLAC player can be installed on symbian 40 and above.
Mobile playing flac and wav will sound better than mobile playing 128kbps mp3 (sound better to me at least)

reading your 'experienced' essays on placement/kerosene/my newbie nature ..

I am not considering yourself a newbie. If anywhere in my post you felt so, then I am sorry. My objections is to the assumption that nothing so cheap can make one happy and all cheap 2.1 are crap. This could have acceptable if our mind's response to audio signal was objective but it is not.

Medically Affect means the emotional response to any stimulus. While every person of same age with normal hearing will hear exactly the same sound (when source is constant), the Affect or emotional response of every person is different.


i will resume my dont buy hardware parts after we get perfect newbie system from our experienced member

A perfect system for a newbie will be simple : Whatever his ears tell him
. That's the golden rule because Audio is so subjective.


i never wanted to write for people for whom saving money is more priority than starting with a decent system,also i cant convince people who cant pay a little ...:
Well, your thread starter doesn't say that. It does not mention that those who can spend more than planned on audio system should read further. May be you need to add it .

"A decent system": now this does not have any firm definition.

The philosophy itself seems to be different:
I feel that the system giving happiness and satisfaction is a decent system regardless of cost/material etc. while (probably) you feel that a system appreciated in audiophile circles is a decent system and everything else is crap

Saving money is not priority. Getting perfectly flat frequency response or minimal distortion is also not the priority. Getting happiness from music is the priority (at least for me). I hope we get the priorities right in the first place.



practically , ..call me a fool who explores chips /amp types/tests in real world brings some learning for peoples benefits , i may be wrong at my observations why not point that technically...[/QUOTE]

The core knowledge that I got after reading lots of stuff is simple: Only your own ears can tell you what makes you happy. No review/forum/objective test/technical knowledge can tell that.

Exploring different possibilities is my hobby a well but I like to share ideas in form of discussion rather than 'educating someone something which was never asked by him'. If someone asks something and I know the answer, I am happy to help.

 

[jaudere]

Just came across a thread started by you. So finally what did your friend buy? Did you manage to convince him not to buy el-cheapo but some decent system as per your definition?

http://www.hifivision.com/what-should-i-buy/23019-5k-elcheapo-fren.html

In fact I am happy that at least in that thread you seem to understand why your friend had that priority and considered philips / sony as decent.