TT for beginner - Need advice

[AMITNOIDA]

Recently I find myself interested to indulge in Vinyl. Presntly I have CDP (with Integrated amp) as well as PC (with headphone as well as AVR) based stereo setup and don't have any previous experience of owning any TT.

Last week I took opportunity during my visit to Bangalore and Kolkata to know ABC of Vinyl and Turntable. Also, visited shop of used Vinyl at Kolkata (Wellington Road).

After my above visit, the desire for vinyl set-up has grown further. Specially, opportunity for listening Indian classical, Tagore songs and Bengali modern songs through used vinyl has attracted me more.

So, if I go for vinyl the used vinyl will be more than new vinyl in my stock. The items which I have to purchase :
1. Turn Table
2. Tone arm
3. Cartridge
4. Phono-stage amp
5. Accessroies like Spirit Level, Brush, record cleaning solution, stylus cleaning liquid, anti static sleeves etc.
6. Record cleaning machine

If I miss something, may please correct me.

Now, out of the above the most important are TT, Tone arm and Cartridge. Next important is Phono-stage.

I like to purchase new TT. My total budget may be 1.5L ( including phono stage and RCM).

The model I have seen, listened and is aiming for is Scheu Analog Cello. Only, I have to check and get advice on its performance with not well maintained and not so well recrded used vinyls. I have listened only three used LPs in this TT and I need to listen more before taking final decision.

Need your advice and comments on my selection of TT and suggestion for other acessories availability.

First I would start building up of approx. 20-25 LP stock (new and used) and purchase the accessories. Then I would purchase the TT and Phono. Till then I would like to listen more TT at Delhi/NCR and other cities and gather more information.

Any invitation?

 

[malvai]

amitji, what is your budget for the TT and phono stage?

you are most welcome to come over and have a listen to my vinyl set up as well... another great vinyl set up that i heard in delhi was at virenji's house! so you will have a great reference point if you visit him as well!

i am going to goa today, and would be back in 4-5 days... you can come over anytime after that! In fact anm and panditji also want to visit, so maybe all three of you can hook up.

 

[AMITNOIDA]

amitji, what is your budget for the TT and phono stage?

My budget is 1.5L for TT + Phono stage + RCM

 

[Asit]

Only, I have to check and get advice on its performance with not well maintained and not so well recrded used vinyls. I have listened only three used LPs in this TT

Amit,

We listened to 4 LPs bought used, not 3. Of course, we heard others which were bought new at several points of time (more than 20 years ago to the present time).

The Malini Rajurkar LP that we listened to for a considerable time was also bought as an used one from a street side shop. That LP is quite incredible in quality (musically and otherwise) for the price I paid (Rs.100).

I will now give my own classification about the other 3. The Vilayat Khan LP was okay condition-wise, not excellent (musically it's one of the best I have ever heard, especially the side 2). The other two (Mehdi Hasan's gazals and Arati Mukherji's modern Bengali songs) were not recorded well, although the condition of the LPs we heard were quite reasonable. For example, the Arati Mukherjee one was recorded with a goal to make her voice sound like somebody else's.

When you buy used LPs, there is never any guarantee that it will be playable on your TT with satisfactory result. I do not think, there is ever any TT at any budget, that will make a vinyl which is recorded and/or preserved poorly will sound good. The same generally goes for any medium, I think.

One more thing about used vinyl. You can't determine the condition just by looking at it. I have found that many a time a spotless used vinyl produces a lot more crackles and pops than a visually-not-so-well vinyl. As I said in another thread, one has to be ready to accept a bit of waste. Even with new CDs, a significant number I do not listen to ever, after the first listen.

I do not think you should buy a new TT based entirely on the proposition of acquiring used vinyl from streets. There are plenty of new vinyl coming up. Just check flipkart.com for both Indian and Western, although they still have only very few in my preferred genre (Indian classical). Of course, there are many many other sources. Even exotic names such as the Tacet records (Western Classical) are available in India.

Regards.

 

[sachu888]

My budget is 1.5L for TT + Phono stage + RCM

Hi Amit,

Record cleaning machine is not needed for limited amount of Lps.

Regards,
Sachin

 

[malvai]

Hi Amit,

Record cleaning machine is not needed for limited amount of Lps.

Regards,
Sachin

sachu, i don't quite see it that way... see, i have tried all the non-RCM formulations and the only one that truly worked to 90% satisfaction was the Spin Clean... but of one has the budget for a proper RCM one should go for it as most of us buy pre-owned LPs that do need deep cleaning that oly a RCM can give.

However, for a person like amitji who is just beginning his innings, you are right. as he can utilise the entire budget in getting as good a TT + Tonearm + Cartrige + Phono, as possible... the RCM can come later when he has a collection that spans at least 200 LPs!

just my 2 bits from either side of the fence!

@amitji
with your budget you can easily look at the Scheu TT that Asitji has bought or you can look at another table in th 90k range that really blew me away (at that price point) ~ Goldenote Valore.
superb turntable + tonearm + Cart combo. You can pair it with either a Lehmann Blackcube (this can be bought for a steal of price from audiogon) or a new Ray Samuels Nighthawk (this is what I use and is as good as it gets despite it relatively humble cost!)

if go this way you'll still have enough for a RCM + many brand new Vinyls! Or many many many more pre-owned LP's in the flea market in Delhi!

 

[reignofchaos]

So here's my suggestion:

Scheu Cello + 9" Classic Arm + Denon DL103 - ~100k
25 records - ~25k
Trigon Vanguard Phono stage - 30k? (I'm not sure about what this will end up costing)
Spin Clean record cleaner - Around 5k including shipping

Should fit in your budget or thereabouts.

However if I had that kind of a budget, I'd seriously look into buying atleast the basic premier. The difference is supposed to be quite dramatic.

 

[sachu888]

However, for a person like amitji who is just beginning his innings, you are right. as he can utilise the entire budget in getting as good a TT + Tonearm + Cartrige + Phono, as possible... the RCM can come later when he has a collection that spans at least 200 LPs!

just my 2 bits from either side of the fence!

HI Malvai,

This is true,I wanted to say the same thing.RCM can be added later.Spin clean is not that effective IMO and it is not that cheap.One can easily build a DIY RCM using an old TT and Vacuum pump/cleaner,or KAB EV-1 is a better option.

Regards,
Sachin

 

[arj]

Amitnoida, lots of good advice above. I too would recommend the scheu/trigon /dl103 it is one of the most well engineered tts. I had also started my TT as a small side setup but it is playing a bigger role and have spent more than i planned.

Better to go for the best you can afford now rather than regret it later...dont worry on LP nos, They will come with time.
Get the spin clean..it is not very expensive and well worth the money.

 

[MAYHEM_METAL]

My Suggestion as I have been listening to Lps since the Late 80s.
Share my experience

1. Turntable -

New Thorens (GEM)
if second then the Technics (You will never regret) trust me as I have 5 different TT

2. Tone arm

No comments

3. Cartridge
I have used Shure, Ortofon & AudioTechnics.
And Ortofon the best in sound is quality.

4. Phono-stage amp

I have two.
But NAD is nice and warmer. The pops & crackles are not audible because of the warm nature of the Nad.


5. Accessroies like Spirit Level, Brush, record cleaning solution, stylus cleaning liquid, anti static sleeves etc.

These are must
Spirit Level
Stylus Brush.
Records Carbon brush (Thorens).
Anti static mat
Anti static brush for cleaning records

My wish Anti static Gun for new Lps as the static is high.


6. Record cleaning machine

Jet shower Water the best for cleaning with mild liquid soap and sponge.

I can share you all my experience. Just ask

 

[AMITNOIDA]

Amit,

We listened to 4 LPs bought used, not 3. Of course, we heard others which were bought new at several points of time (more than 20 years ago to the present time).

The Malini Rajurkar LP that we listened to for a considerable time was also bought as an used one from a street side shop. That LP is quite incredible in quality (musically and otherwise) for the price I paid (Rs.100).

Thanks Asit for correcting me. It was 4 used records not 3. The LP of Malini Rajurkar was sounded so beautiful, I have thought it to be a new one.

No, I have not meant that I will purchase the used LPs only. The new LPs will come also. Already shortlisted 4 Indian LPs from Flipkart. But my favourite Tagore song LPs, Bengali modern song LPs of some of my favourite artists are not coming as new LP and collection of used LPs may be the only way to have them. Hope, I could explain my point.

 

[AMITNOIDA]

So here's my suggestion:

Scheu Cello + 9" Classic Arm + Denon DL103 - ~100k
25 records - ~25k
Trigon Vanguard Phono stage - 30k? (I'm not sure about what this will end up costing)
Spin Clean record cleaner - Around 5k including shipping

Should fit in your budget or thereabouts.

However if I had that kind of a budget, I'd seriously look into buying atleast the basic premier. The difference is supposed to be quite dramatic.

Thanks Reign for your suggestion. How is Ortofon Super OM30 MM cartridge compared to Denon DL103? The Trigon phono including it's battery costs approx. 38k excl VAT.

 

[reignofchaos]

Thanks Reign for your suggestion. is Ortofon Super OM30 MM cartridge compared to Denon DL103? The Trigon phono including it's battery costs approx. 38k excl VAT.

Honestly I do not know! But I do know that the DL103 goes really well with the Scheu Classic tonearms and is a recommended combo from Scheu. The ortofons go really well with rega arms.

 

[AMITNOIDA]

Honestly I do not know! But I do know that the DL103 goes really well with the Scheu Classic tonearms and is a recommended combo from Scheu. The ortofons go really well with rega arms.

The Rega arm is very acclaimed. Even the Scheu Analog supplies their TT with Rega arm as a probable match with Ortofon cartridge. I have listened Scheu Cello with Rega 251 tone arm and Ortofone Super OM-30 MM cartridge and they sounded well. Only the Rega stock tone arm wire is not of good quality. I am thinking to upgrade the same with Cardras wire with incremental cost. What is the comparative advantage/improvement of Rega 301 tone arm over Rega 251 tone arm?

Somewhere I have read that Ortofone Rondo Red cartridge is a very good option. Can any one tell about the difference between Ortofon Rondo Red and Ortofon super OM-30 cartridge with respect to Sound signature, soundstage, detailing and warmth.

 

[jls001]

with your budget you can easily look at the Scheu TT that Asitji has bought or you can look at another table in th 90k range that really blew me away (at that price point) ~ Goldenote Valore.

+1 to Goldenote Valore. Comes factory fitted with a good tonearm and an MC cartridge. Latest I checked it was approx 70K. Fast, dynamic, musical.
Joshua

 

[AMITNOIDA]

+1 to Goldenote Valore. Comes factory fitted with a good tonearm and an MC cartridge. Latest I checked it was approx 70K. Fast, dynamic, musical.
Joshua

Can it be listened somewhere in India? AFAIK, it is an Italian company. Does people source from there?

 

[Asit]

Amit,
If you look at the 6moons review of the Scheu Cello (6moons audio reviews: Scheu Analog Cello), you will see that Jelco+DL103 combo had perhaps a better midrange and microdynamics but the reviewer liked overall the Rega+Ortofon (Super OM 10) combo.

As far as I can see, the DL103 is a great VFM. At USD 200 or so, it is a very good MC cart. The Rondo Red is a more expensive cart at more than USD 500. According to all reports, it is a very good MC cart (the lowest priced one of the Rondo series). But, it is not proper to take a cart by itself, one has to think about an arm+cart combo. One really has to weigh the pluses and minuses for the arm+cart combo.

Ortofon Super OM series and the Rega RB 250/251 make a good combo. The Rega RB250/251 is a very good arm for the price (only difference between the 250 and 251 is how the arm is mounted onto the armboard. The 251 has perhaps a better mount with 3 screws). The 300/301 is not significantly different from 250/251, as far as I could see. Far more expensive TTs also use the OEM RB250/251 arms with better counterweights and at times with better wiring (for example the Mitchell tecnoarm is basically the Rega 250/251 arm).

I could not afford more than a stock Rega 251 arm, but as you know I upgraded the cart from Super OM 10 to super OM 30 for an extra amount of Rs 9500 + VAT. The 30 is a very good MM cart. Since you visited me, the cart has broken in more.

If you are considering Scheu, get the opinion of Jochen about the arm+cart combos. I think the best recommended combo is the Cantus 9" arm and a Benz MC cart that Scheu sells. But this combo is around 90K. Scheu obviously thinks this TT can take an arm+cart upgrade of that calibre.

Regards.

 

[jls001]

Can it be listened somewhere in India? AFAIK, it is an Italian company. Does people source from there?

Jacob Koshy, J&B Sound, Mumbai Welcome to J & B Sound

 

[AMITNOIDA]

Amit,
If you look at the 6moons review of the Scheu Cello (6moons audio reviews: Scheu Analog Cello), you will see that Jelco+DL103 combo had perhaps a better midrange and microdynamics but the reviewer liked overall the Rega+Ortofon (Super OM 10) combo.

As far as I can see, the DL103 is a great VFM. At USD 200 or so, it is a very good MC cart. The Rondo Red is a more expensive cart at more than USD 500. According to all reports, it is a very good MC cart (the lowest priced one of the Rondo series). But, it is not proper to take a cart by itself, one has to think about an arm+cart combo. One really has to weigh the pluses and minuses for the arm+cart combo.

Ortofon Super OM series and the Rega RB 250/251 make a good combo. The Rega RB250/251 is a very good arm for the price (only difference between the 250 and 251 is how the arm is mounted onto the armboard. The 251 has perhaps a better mount with 3 screws). The 300/301 is not significantly different from 250/251, as far as I could see. Far more expensive TTs also use the OEM RB250/251 arms with better counterweights and at times with better wiring (for example the Mitchell tecnoarm is basically the Rega 250/251 arm).

Asit, thank you brother. How had you decided for Rega RB251+ Ortofon Super OM30 over 9" Classic Arm + Denon DL103? Based on 6 Moon review only or from other sources also? If there are any, may pl share. I would like to go through.

Have you received Trigon Phono? Eager to get your feedback.

 

[reignofchaos]

The difference between the RB251 and the RB301 is marginal and not worth the upgrade. However the Classic 9" is a significantly better arm than Rega according to Jochen. For a marginal price difference, you'd get a much better arm than the Rega.

That particular 6moons comparison is between the Jelco S-arm and the Rega. I'm not sure how good the Jelco is but the Scheu Classic arm should be significantly better albeit at a slightly increased cost since it definitely has better construction, wiring and is also a unipivot.

As Asit mentioned, the Cantus with a Benz is probably the best upgrade but then, it costs so much that its better to upgrade the table itself to the Premier. The Classic + DL103 seems to be a very cost effective and good sounding combination.