cable facts

[Asit]

Hi Guns,

First, apologies for a typo. It should be 4 sq. mm (not 4 sq. m)

Are you based in Kolkata? Then the following would be useful.

Yes, it's nearly impossible to get these cables a few metres length unless you are ready to buy a 90m box or something. My electrician was discouraging me to look for it. But I am not the easily-giving-up type. So I went to the Ezra Street area wholesale electrical goods market (parking is a big problem there). There people were basically laughing away at me because I wanted a 3m length. Then somebody took pity and told me to go to a store called "Rajdhani Electrical" or something very similar at 32 Ezra Street. I found the store and they had some stray cables lying in front of the store. I was actually looking for a 2.5 sq mm cable, but of the stray cables they had only of 4 sq mm cross-section. The Finolex one they had only about 3 m and I bought it. But they had another longer piece (also 4 sq mm) from Havells.

I am using it as an extension cable for my 3 KVA Krykard servo stabilizer. I have used Crabtree sockets and a Crabtree plug top (16A) that goes into the 15A socket provided on request on the servo stab by the Krykard people. The crabtree sockets have provided wonderful fits to all the power cord plugs of my AV rig.

Since I am using the Cable only as an extension cord, I should not perhaps comment on the sound, but some people (like dinyaar in my amp thread) recommend it for use as IC or speaker cables. I have not tried that. They are at least good power cords for sure.

 

[dinyaar]

Hi Asit,

No need to buy the 3 core cable for speaker wire rather buy 4 sq.mm wire which is available at Rs 2000 for a 90 meter box. This can be used for power cords, internal wiring, speaker cable etc etc I would not use this as an IC though.

Really sorry for the delay in sending the IC to u. Called Blue dart and they want me to pack the cable in a box. Am just finding some suitable packing and will despatch it this evening. Hopefully the cable will reach u in one peice by tom!!!!
RGDS

 

[Guns]

Hi,
Same typo error i was told to use Finolex 2 core 4 sq mm for speaker cables and could not find short lengths hence picked up MX cable, after reading Venkatchar opinion and he finding difference between MX and DAC now i am thinking... Basically i want a very neuteral cable without draining my pockets.

 

[Asit]

Hi dinyaar,
Please do not apologise. I am the one should be thanking everyone for the help I get from this forum.

 

[venkatcr]

Asit, Dinyaar - I am bit confused. Are you people recommending the use of Finolex power cables to be used as speaker cable? Am I reading this right? To be used between the amp and the speaker?

Cheers

 

[Asit]

Well Venkat,

In post # 367 in my amp thread http://www.hifivision.com/amplifiers/3200-amp-upgrade-canton-speakers-feasibility-study-37.html , dinyaar did actually write:

"Try one more experiment if u have the inclination and the time. Buy 4 or 6 sq.mm finolex electrical wire and twist the two conductors gently and use this as a speaker cable. This i have tried with good results and i had got a 90 meter sealed box for Rs 2000/- . If one is inclined one can put the cable in a jacket/sleeve etc."

I actually have not tried that yet, but would like to try this out someday as an experiment. As dinyaar said above, he found good results, but, I guess, not good enough for him to continue with it. Is that right, dinyaar?

Actually a few years back the owner of Digital Acoustics, Kolkata (dealer of Cadence, Tannoy, Nad etc, maker of the invisible speakers I think) recommended to me the same thing. I thought he was trying to pull my legs.

Obviously a reasonable electrical store would have the 4 sq mm single core cable from Finolex and would agree to sell small lengths. It's the multi-core ones that are difficult to get, unless you are ready to buy a whole box, I would think. I suppose dinyaar is suggesting to braid or twist them together and use this as the two terminals (red and black) of the speaker cable.

 

[magma]

Allance4 andheri uses the finolex wire ( dinyaars advice)
so does the Shop next the allance 4 ( i think i saw polycab) when i auditioned the jamo c405/6 there

i have used it in car audio once too
(i regularly use finolex 10-15mm sq for power though)

as ive said beforegood speaker wire to me has two main aspects
Pure and proper grade virgin Cu ( if OFC all the better)
Good sheilding ( flexible to some extent )

finolex does provide the above two properties to a dcent extent for the real budget consious buyer

hence im not too surprised when i read the above

 

[venkatcr]

I am curious. I went through Finolex's web site and read the specifications of all their three electrical wires.

• FR Housegard Wires
• FRLS Flamegard Wires
• HFFR Halogard

Though I agree that Finolex is superb for electrical circuits, I wonder if they meet the specifications needed to work as speaker cables. All I could find were the following:

99.97 pure copper
Low Conductor resistance
Special PVC used for insulation.

Now the interesting part is that the insulation is PVC and has high oxygen and temperature index. In other words, as against 23% of regular cables, this has 29% oxygen index to catch fire. In other words it needs 6% more oxygen for the PVC to catch fire.

There is no mention of RFI/EMI shielding or shielding from noises created by another electrical cable nearby. These are not needed for transmitting electricity.

A good speaker cable will be constructed out of high purity OFC multi strand. This will have high conductivity, low inductance, and low capacitance.

The insulation is usually made of PE (not PVC) and is meant to decrease dielectric constant to the lowest possible thereby allowing for the transmission of signals from 20Hz to 20KHz at a minimum.

Though I am willing to try (and short runs are available in Chennai), I wonder if it is worthwhile at all. I am also curious to see how Belden cables work, though I am finding it hard to lay my hands on them.

Cheers

 

[Asit]

Hi venkat,

I had similar doubts as you are expressing. But since people who have tried this have a lot of experience in listening to different gears and they have liked the result, there is got to be something in it.

I want to say something on shielding though. Shielding is considered very important for ICs, not so much for speaker cables.

There is no doubt about one thing. These would be quite good for power cords and that's what they are meant for and that's the purpose I have currently used them for.

 

[dinyaar]

Asit, Dinyaar - I am bit confused. Are you people recommending the use of Finolex power cables to be used as speaker cable? Am I reading this right? To be used between the amp and the speaker?

Cheers

Yes i am suggesting u try finolex wire 4 or 6 sq.mm as a speaker cable. Not the 3 core cable just simple electrical wire. Yes use one for the red and one for the black. Gently over lap the two so they stay together and connect between your amp and speakers.

I have made a cable with the above plus some foam as a core plus a jacket and a sleeve( all to make it acceptable to the audiophile!!!!!!!!) and a young neighbour loves it and actually told me this sounds 'better and livelier' than the kimber 8 TC that i gave him to audition and compare.

These are facts Venkat and i suggest anyone to try it for any of the set ups they have and revert back with an honest opinion.

That said i am still using some branded cables simply cause i have about half a dozen good cables but i am always suggesting this option and offering the wire free to guys who have blown their budget on components.They can always buy branded cables as and when they have the inclination and the dough to experiment.
BTW have u seen the wire that is used internally in many 'audiophile' speakers ?
Rgds

 

[magma]

BTW have u seen the wire that is used internally in many 'audiophile' speakers ?
Rgds

i have !!!

and thats the time where i started believing in what i belive
i have not only seen that internal wire used inside speakers i have also seen some amp internals ( though i dont know jack about them) wherein the rca outs are not directly connected to the main board and are instead soldered onto the main board using cable/wire
the quality of this cable is nothing better than the finolex!

now when such cable is used to connect the rca outs of the amp someone please explain how expensive IC's with their 99.9 percent pure cu and hi fi shileding make any sense
Do people really think budget amps and budget speakers come with as exotic/expensive connections as the exotic wires/cables that people talk about using betwwen amp and speaker


my general rule is hence use cables proportionate to the rest of your equipment
and by proportinate i think within 8-10% of your speaker cost for cables or about the same % ( for me even less) for IC's amp costs is good enough

P.S i have seen a lot of the above in ICE but also have seen a few instances in home audio recently

 

[Asit]

my general rule is hence use cables proportionate to the rest of your equipment
and by proportinate i think within 8-10% of your speaker cost for cables or about the same % ( for me even less) for IC's amp costs is good enough

I think you have more or less the right view there. Actually going by your estimates above, I have spent even less for cables (initially spent about DM100 in cables for DM2000 speakers, only 5%), although very recently I found out that my audio gear actually deserved a bit better cabling than I provided them all these years (see the current last page of my amp thread). So it boils down to a bit of trying while staying well within the sane expenditure limit and see what the gear likes the best for optimum performance.

 

[Guns]

BTW have u seen the wire that is used internally in many 'audiophile' speakers ?
Hi,
I have hi end studio monitor and have seen the wire and yes to my surprise its very different from what we think. its thin and looks very ordinary and no fancy cable. Infact the country head of the studio monitor brand recomended me to go for 2core 4sqmm Finolex cable for my speakers. wish i could get small lengths of the same.

 

[dinyaar]

Guys,
If interested in trying branded cables buy used. That kind of gets u the best of both worlds.( good sound plus a satisfied ego)

At the prices i am hearing it is slowly but surely becoming almost wasteful expenditure. U dont really need to shell big bucks even if u have high end rigs. U will get very similar performance for less surely.

Some examples of used cables available in bbay recently at almost half price. VDH revelation,revolution,Kimber Silver streak, 4TC,8TC, Transparent music link plus and the super along with the music wave speaker cables and more.
All the above are good products and will match a variety of set ups.

Magma i have seen quite a few amps with internal wiring even inferior to standard finolex wire !!!!! and internals of speakers having really thin 'basic' copper wire so after a point it gets silly spending insane amounts on cables. Naturally what is 'insane' also varies from person to person and time to time. There are also some speakers that DO HAVE quality internal wiring from siltech, VDH etc but those are few IMO
As gobble had nicely put it somewhere 'there is a price barrier to break'.
Unfortunately for me i broke that ages ago and still wonder if that was the correct direction to head in:indifferent14::indifferent14::indifferent14:

 

[keith_correa]

So, I was thinking:
What if I had "lead" ears and could not discern differences in sound when different cables were used?
What if the so called nay sayers who thrash the notion of cables having a difference in sound had "lead" ears too like me?
What if different cables indeed played a +ve / -ve role in affecting sound but my speakers could not interpret these differences suitably/perceptibly due to which I could not discern any difference?

And on the other side what if all the advocates of speaker/IC cables indeed were right because they had better appendages - silver ears, golden ears - heck even maybe even OFC ears than me

And what if due to my physical shortcomings I was wrong all along in saying that cables DO NOT make a difference?

Maybe there is a solution here - a way to get all on one side - a way to get all to admit that they were right / wrong.

I read this article from "the audio critic" here - http://theaudiocritic.com/plog/

he mentions a piece of software - Audio DiffMaker. What does it do? I quote

"Record the output of an audio component when playing any piece of music, or even a test signal. Then change something in the systema cable, an amplifier, any other component, or apply an audiophile tweak of any kind. Next, record the output again with the same piece of music or the same test signal. Then, using Bill Waslos Audio DiffMaker software (which has not been commercially released yet but can be downloaded in a trial version), align the two recorded tracks to the same gain level and timing. Finally, subtract one from the other and listen to the difference recording. If it is basically silent, then the change has clearly done nothing. No sound in the difference recording means that the change has made no difference. If the track is not silent, then a difference may have been made by the change"

Here's the link to the software - Audio DiffMaker

Of course he also says this - I love the last 2 words [marked in 'red']:

Now, I am not saying that Audio DiffMaker will convince the flat-earthers who remain unconvinced by ABX listening comparisons. There is such a thing as invincible ignorance.

Will someone do the honour of conducting this test? Conclusive proof anyone?

 

[anm]

But what are the limits of the software?
But what if it is not able to capture the differences due to a low sampling rate of recording/ ADC?
There will always be a but... No proof is conclusive proof in this war.

regards

 

[keith_correa]

But what are the limits of the software?
But what if it is not able to capture the differences due to a low sampling rate of recording/ ADC?
There will always be a but... No proof is conclusive proof in this war.

regards

Right! Maybe 10 tracks can be sampled through this software. And if there are no differences in all 10 - then maybe we can put it down to limitations in the software or should we say - whisper - invincible ignorance?

As for me - all things being equal - I just need to see a difference in just 1 track and I will be a believer/convert - I cannot discern any audible difference anyways nor will I ever [maybe due to the fact that my auditory nerves are flawed] so what do I gain/lose by saying "I believe"? No skin off my nose!

 

[square_wave]

How are the two playback sequences recorded ?

Is it by a hi-quality microphone ? We are trying to see if the human ear can perceive differences in accessories, right ? Am I missing something here ?

First it has to be proven that the slightest reduction in bit rate or any other scientifically proven inferior modification can be detected by this testing system. If this can be done, I am sure you can go ahead with the test comparing changes in anything.

 

[keith_correa]

How are the two playback sequences recorded ?

Is it by a hi-quality microphone ? We are trying to see if the human ear can perceive differences in accessories, right ? Am I missing something here ?

First it has to be proven that the slightest reduction in bit rate or any other scientifically proven inferior modification can be detected by this testing system. If this can be done, I am sure you can go ahead with the test comparing changes in anything.

Don't need no microphone since we are trying to leave the speakers out of the equation altogether. Just need to record via a soundcard

No we are not just trying to see if the human ear can perceive differences - the doubt is more fundamental - trying to see if "accessories" [in this case speaker cables] do make a difference in sound.

I ripped "So Much to Say" from the Dave Matthews Band album "crash" as a 16 Bit wav file - File # 1. Then using "Audacity", I loaded File # 1 and just saved it as another 16 Bit wav file - File # 2.
Using DiffMaker, I then compared these 2 files. No differences found. This was done just to eliminate the possibility that Audacity is adding/reducing something while saving the file.

Deleted File # 2.

Using "Audacity", I loaded File # 1 and changed the equalization of a small part/selection of File # 1 and saved it as File # 2.
Using DiffMaker, I then compared these 2 files. Differences found.

 

[square_wave]

Don't need no microphone since we are trying to leave the speakers out of the equation altogether. Just need to record via a soundcard

No we are not just trying to see if the human ear can perceive differences - the doubt is more fundamental - trying to see if "accessories" [in this case speaker cables] do make a difference in sound.

I ripped "So Much to Say" from the Dave Matthews Band album "crash" as a 16 Bit wav file - File # 1. Then using "Audacity", I loaded File # 1 and just saved it as another 16 Bit wav file - File # 2.
Using DiffMaker, I then compared these 2 files. No differences found. This was done just to eliminate the possibility that Audacity is adding/reducing something while saving the file.

Deleted File # 2.

Using "Audacity", I loaded File # 1 and changed the equalization of a small part/selection of File # 1 and saved it as File # 2.
Using DiffMaker, I then compared these 2 files. Differences found.

There will be a difference between a equalized and non- equalized wav file. That is a clear and straight-forward test. You can do this without speakers. Hell, you don't even need to test

The testing system is flawed if you are trying to check if accessories these make any difference to a listener.
For example: How does a soundcard know if an isolation system under a transport is making a difference ? The vibration caused by loudspeakers is what will cause differences. If you take the speaker out of the equation, how are you going to evaluate ?
Cables and other accessories are very much system dependant. The entire system including your ears and room comes into the picture when you evaluate what accessories work for you.

In the case of a speaker cable, how will you test if there are no speakers in the test ? It is the interaction between the amplifier, speaker and speaker wire which causes a certain sound