CAT 7 - Ethernet Cable - Revelation Audio Labs - USA -

[IndianEars]

captrajesh said:

Theory being theory, will remain theory and theories get revised more often than not.

:clapping::clapping::clapping:

 

[bhagwan]

Very well said. Theory being theory, will remain theory and theories get revised more often than not.

Thank you;

I am not trying to re-invent the wheel...

This is a 'pure' experiment...
Computer Audio is a 'trial & error' thing..
There are no 'fixed' boundries here.

What all of you say is 100 % correct - Theory wise yes - technically very very sound.

However, how often has music been played with 2 computers ?
Not that often & yet it sounds better than 1 machine [to my ears at least]
In the same breath, Ethernet Cable 'should not' make any difference to the sound - technically all of you are 100 % correct.
Maybe it will not....
BUT WHAT IF IT DOES ?
Then what ?
It is not about RAL Cables;
It is about different cables of CAT 7 in my set up - with 2 computers - does it make a 'sonic' change...
This entire 'experiment' is geared towards finding that out....

It just may happen that my generic cable sounds 'better'
or
The RAL Cable sounds 'better'
or
Both sound the 'same' - no sonic change;

In either case, the result would have been derived after doing a 'test' & not reading about it in 'wiki' !!

O/T - Digital Cables carry 0 & 1
Yet different digital cables sound different & each one changes the sound;
How ?
Why ?
Is there a 'technical' explanation for this in Wiki ?

Came goes for Power Cords - this is a different topic & I do not want this to drift, but what I am trying here is to plug in & listen & then decide - pass a judgement after I have listened...

Disclaimer - I have no financial interest in RAL or any other Cable - what so ever. The Cables were purchased by me & it is an experiment I am doing with my own money.
I also have 4 other generic cables with me - Schnider / Belden etc.

 

[bhagwan]

Some pics of the 'other' Cables that I am to use [most are generic] !

Uploaded with ImageShack.com
Uploaded with ImageShack.com
Uploaded with ImageShack.com
Uploaded with ImageShack.com
Uploaded with ImageShack.com

Now, this will take some time to do - but I am keen to get it done - so I can know if there is any difference [in sound] in them or Wiki is right;

 

[bhagwan]

Small development - I am to get the Supra Cat 7.1 Cable from La Kozy for 'test' over the weekend. I shall write about that too.
Supra Cables

 

[captrajesh]

This entire 'experiment' is geared towards finding that out....

It just may happen that my generic cable sounds 'better'
or
The RAL Cable sounds 'better'
or
Both sound the 'same' - no sonic change;

In either case, the result would have been derived after doing a 'test' & not reading about it in 'wiki' !!

:thumbsup:Can't agree more.

I still remember a theory from my High School Science Text Book that once upon a time, world was considered to be flat. Also, when Copernicus sought to revise the Geocentrism theory with that of Heliocentrism, he was scoffed at.

Now before flaming me, let me clarify that I'm not equating our senior members with those illustrious gents but my point is, one should look everything including seemingly irrational theories with an open mind than taking an approach with preconceived notions.

 

[bhagwan]

:thumbsup:
one should look everything including seemingly irrational theories with an open mind than taking an approach with preconceived notions.

100 % Correct.
Well put - Sir.

Some people are looking @ what I am trying to do in the correct spirit;
Appreciate this support;

:clapping:

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

so there Are cable difference even in Computers and even ins networking a cable is not a cable is not a cable and comes with some solid engineering backing it.
really great discussion !

No, a cable is just a cable in the computer world, and yes, it is backed by engineering and nothing but engineering and it is defined according to purpose and works according to spec. There are only two kinds of networking cables within a given category: those that work flawlessly and those that have some fault and get binned. The thing is that you do not get brighter results in your profit and loss account by using silver conductors.

No, there is no theory in this context. None at all. Theory would be if we change the connectors on these cables and try using them as interconnects, or (as some people do) as speaker cables. That would be using them for an audio application, and would test the question as to whether or not such a cable a) works or b) gives any benefit. That is experimenting and hey, why not.

When it comes to connecting between two computers, a conection, analogue or digital, between two sound cards would be an audio connection. A connection between two NICs is not. It carries network data, not audio signals nor even digital audio protocol. With networking, the method of transmission is irrelevant, let alone the medium, and that is why those of us to whom computers are not just the latest thing in the hifi rack know that, whatever else may or not be true about cables, this is nonsense. You could transmit your music, by internet, across Catn cable, fibre, wireless, microwave link, even satellite (and whatever else they have developed since I retired) and as long as it arrives at the destination complete and fast enough it will still be the same music. Just like the web page you are now reading. Great system, eh? Don't make a nonsense of it.

This stuff is developed in real "labs" by real scientists for real applications in a commercial world that is both demanding and competitive. The world, these days, runs on internet and LANS. There is no built-to-spec flylead that is any different from its brothers in the same spec --- except for the dud ones.

So do an experiment: burn and grind different ethernet cables into a powder and rub it into your scalp to see if it cures baldness --- because this is the level, that of the "snake-oil" medical scams of a couple of hundred years ago, that the consumer audio market has fallen to. Who knows? Unless you try you wont; know if it works or not. It proves reincarnation: the quacks of the 19th C are back. And so are their customers.

That's it. It's note very technical because I am neither a network engineer not a scientist, but it is simple and, I believe, wholly true. I am very happy if our network engineers would correct any mistakes in my reasoning.

That's it. But I don't expect people to listen. And hey, if you bought it already then use it, because it's purple, and purple is my favourite colour. That is the only possible justification for the price.

 

[IndianEars]

Scientific reasoning.... especially when applied without taking into second order effects often yield incorrect conclusions. That is why all 'Theories .... no mater how scientifically 'thorougher" need to be verified with actual experiments and observations.

I am list a few such erroneous conclusions:

1. Since Digital Data Consists simply of On & off ( Yes or No ), hence:

a. Data sent Must be the same as data received.

( That would imply: All transmission is perfect. There are no transmission errors, there is no jitter during transmission !)

b. A compressed File, when stored, transmitted and decompressed must be a Bit perfect copy of the original uncompressed file.

( This would imply that there are no errors in the compression and decompression process. Also there are no errors during storage, transmission and retrieval. The storage & transmission medium are perfect .... no drop outs, no noise, just purrr fect ! )

c. Any program can be used to convert FLAC to Wav files. The results will be the same

( I have posted on this, a couple of weeks ago, on this forum


Then ofcourse there is the classic 'scientific' howler:

The Bumble bee is aerodaynamically a very bad shape. Hence it cannot fly.

Ofcourse the bumble bee does not know that .... it just continues to fly.


Then there are some SERIOUS problems where science cannot explain observations :

1. Why is the Sky Blue ?

2. Why is the Night Sky Black ?

3. Science can only account for about 10% of the matter in the Universe. 90% of the matter is missing ! (Dark matter) :yahoo:

Incidentally, I am a post grad engineer and have spent several years in the pursuit of science and scientific deductions ....

As Bhagwan says... lets investigate with an open mind and note our observations.

Remember Aristotle... the Arm-chair philosopher ? he said that if 2 stones are dropped from a height, the heavier one will land first.

People believed him for centuries, Until......


Galileo dropped 2 stones from the Leaning Tower, and observed that both the stone actually touch the ground at exactly the same time !

Do not let science cloud our willingness to observe ....

Bhagwan, you deserve :clapping::clapping::clapping:

 

[keith_correa]

The number of twists per foot ( or per meter) are a critical factor in the design and data carrying capacity of Category-5 (CAT-5) cables.

I have Belden's Teflon Cat5e (E=Enhanced) cable where the pairs have the 2 strands Bonded with the twist, so that the twist does not get undone.

Cat5 is also called also called UTP: Unshielded Twisted Pair... (that name fully describes its construction)

The poor cross talk Between the Pairs limits the Cat5 cable's data capacity.<snip>

I don't quite understand why you are quoting my post in your response because it does not refute or refer to anything I said.
But what you say certainly is informational to people not in the know about CAT5 cables. One thing that remains unsaid is that all the 4 pairs in a CAT5 cable have varying twist rates to reduce interference and crosstalk.

 

[IndianEars]

Thad said:

There are only two kinds of networking cables within a given category: those that work flawlessly and those that have some fault and get binned.

That is really not true. there are levels of performance, even amongst cables.

To give a very simple example with Cat-5 Networking Cable (Similar implications to Cat-6 and Cat-7)

Cat5 cable is specified to carry 100 MBps over 100 meters.
there are different brands of Cat5 cable that WILL, CONSISTENTLY deliver 100 MBps over even 125 meters....

 

[denom]

:lol: I was away for a day & lots of 'data' has been 'transferred'

Bhagwan, nice to see that you are adding more varieties of snakes for 'testing' purpose. This looks like a very interesting path that you are going to take & that too for our benefit
:clapping:

May I suggest a few, well suggestions that will make things more interesting???
Will need the following to conduct yet another 'test' - lets call it a 'veiled test' of which you too will be a part of.
1) Blindfolds (the no. varying on the no. of participants being called/invited for the VT[veiled test])
2) A trusted friend/PDP (plug-deplug) person who will change the various snakes during conducting the VT
3) Your infinite patience & customary 'khatirdari' for accommodating people(both types - open & close minded that is) over for being part of the VT.

I feel by doing so, the 'doodh ka doodh aur paani ka paani' matter will be resolved, which will be of great benefit to all of us.

What say Bhagwan??? Your questions/comments to my suggestions???

 

[IndianEars]

I don't quite understand why you are quoting my post in your response because it does not refute or refer to anything I said.
But what you say certainly is informational to people not in the know about CAT5 cables. One thing that remains unsaid is that all the 4 pairs in a CAT5 cable have varying twist rates to reduce interference and crosstalk.

Keith, .. sorry my bad. I did not intend to dispute anything you said, but concurred with you.

I quoted you only to take your post forward... and point out that at the next level of performance ... Cat6, the relative physical layout of the 4 wire pairs is critical, and maintained by a plastic space running the length of the Cat6 cable.

The pairs in a cat6 cable cannot be laid flat and the same performance maintained....

 

[captrajesh]

When it comes to connecting between two computers, a conection, analogue or digital, between two sound cards would be an audio connection. A connection between two NICs is not. It carries network data, not audio signals nor even digital audio protocol. With networking, the method of transmission is irrelevant, let alone the medium, and that is why those of us to whom computers are not just the latest thing in the hifi rack know that, whatever else may or not be true about cables, this is nonsense.

Accepting this argument on the face value, I'm not able to understand why there are Cat 5 Cat 6 and Cat 7 cables? Pardon my ignorance, what is the difference.

You could transmit your music, by internet, across Catn cable, fibre, wireless, microwave link, even satellite (and whatever else they have developed since I retired) and as long as it arrives at the destination complete and fast enough it will still be the same music.

That is what you think but is it correct? Since I do not have much idea on how as complex analogue thing as music comprising of a large number of harmonics is converted to seemingly simple 0s and 1s and converted back to analogue, I'm not so sure.

So do an experiment: burn and grind different ethernet cables into a powder and rub it into your scalp to see if it cures baldness --- because this is the level, that of the "snake-oil" medical scams of a couple of hundred years ago, that the consumer audio market has fallen to. Who knows? Unless you try you wont; know if it works or not. It proves reincarnation: the quacks of the 19th C are back. And so are their customers.

He he he Thad, that is going overboard. Let me take the liberty of posting a small rant.

When I was a small child, my aunt was married to my (now) uncle who are settled in Chennai. They came to Hyderabad in their Mercedez which was costing a few lakhs back then. Seeing the car, I remember noticing collective disappointment writ large on the faces of my relatives. They all thought that a car costing so much should've had space for a minimum of 10 people but alas, the seating capacity is no more than that of the Indian workhorse, the Amby. (Ambassador car)

Back to the present; when I told my cousins that my total system costs 4 odd lakhs, they exclaimed, "don't your neighbours complain! They would've gone deaf by now"

The point I want to make is, in the first instance, the measure of car is not the luxury but seating capacity. In the second instance, the measure of music system is the decibel level and not SQ.

 

[arj]

While whether cable make a difference in the energy levels of a system is disputed..that it causes a difference in energy levels amongst FMs is undisputed hyeah:

So there is a magic in cables.. :yahoo:


since the proof of the pudding is in eating..eagerly awaiting Bhagwans audio test results

 

[arj]

Then ofcourse there is the classic 'scientific' howler:

The Bumble bee is aerodaynamically a very bad shape. Hence it cannot fly.

Ofcourse the bumble bee does not know that .... it just continues to fly.

Aha..was hoping someone posts this

in reality , when this was explained the principles used were for gliding like an aeroplane...but the fact that the wing is complex and bends /distorts for a bumblebees flight was considered only later.

The distinction between mathematics and the application of mathematics often isn't made as clearly as it ought to be. In the mathematics classroom, it's important to distinguish between getting the mathematics right and getting the problem right. The word problems typically found in textbooks often serve as rudimentary models of reality. Their applicability to real life, however, depends on the validity of the assumptions that underlie the statement of the problem.
So, no one "proved" that a bumblebee can't fly. What was shown was that a certain simple mathematical model wasn't adequate or appropriate for describing the flight of a bumblebee. Insect flight and wing movements can be quite complicated. Wings aren't rigid. They bend and twist. Stroke angles change. New, improved models take that into account.

Sothis bumblebee thingie is not so simple and scientists have been rather unfairly maligned due to this..for those with a taste for the philosophical..might like this read this completely

 

[keith_correa]

<snip>May I suggest a few, well suggestions that will make things more interesting???
Will need the following to conduct yet another 'test' - lets call it a 'veiled test' of which you too will be a part of.
1) Blindfolds (the no. varying on the no. of participants being called/invited for the VT[veiled test])
2) A trusted friend/PDP (plug-deplug) person who will change the various snakes during conducting the VT
3) Your infinite patience & customary 'khatirdari' for accommodating people(both types - open & close minded that is) over for being part of the VT.

I feel by doing so, the 'doodh ka doodh aur paani ka paani' matter will be resolved, which will be of great benefit to all of us.<snip>

Finally a voice of reason!!! +10 to this.

OTOH, if Bhagwan does not want to go to all this trouble it would entirely be his prerogative because finally it is HE that should be satisfied and be able to discern a difference and should NOT have to prove anything to anybody. If he hears a difference with these cables, more power to him and let the others get their "chaddis" in a twist

 

[bhagwan]

since the proof of the pudding is in eating..eagerly awaiting Bhagwans audio test results

Sir,
I shall try my best & post;
This is not as easy as changing an interconnect cable.
So it needs time & I have to play the full bunch of tracks & write notes etc.
I will surely do it - but please do give to me some liberty of time.

Once I have some 'basic' idea of what is going on - I will share & if [only if] there is any audible difference in the cables, will we need to go into phase 2 - i.e. to see which cable 'suits' my computer & system over all....
This may not be universal - but my set up dependent....

I will say it again - sorry for being repetitive - this is for pure experimental purpose - what ever I am doing..

Post # 32

This will come into play - only in phase II - i.e. after I have done the base work & there actually is any difference - if I do not find any change in sound among the different cables - all this may not be required...

p.s. I stopped doing B.T. [Blind Tests] 7 + years back.
Cause if you can hear it - we can & if we cannot we din't so who will we 'lie' to ? Only to ourselves. Do test always with eyes open but ears registering - cause the result is important & that too only to your self....no one else matters [to me at least] in the world of audio;;;

 

[bhagwan]

:lol:
Bhagwan, nice to see that you are adding more varieties of snakes for 'testing' purpose. This looks like a very interesting path that you are going to take & that too for our benefit

Respected Sir,

I would love to agree with you;

However, I think what I am doing is 100 % for my 'benefit'
I do not know of a single FM that has a 2 Computer Set Up to play Music.
Therefore what happens with this Cat 5 / 6 / 7 Cable shoot out will only effect me - so far - unless other FM's have taken up [on] the J Play Mini 5.1 & executed it to the 'T'

 

[mowgli80]

Thad said:


That is really not true. there are levels of performance, even amongst cables.

To give a very simple example with Cat-5 Networking Cable (Similar implications to Cat-6 and Cat-7)

Cat5 cable is specified to carry 100 MBps over 100 meters.
there are different brands of Cat5 cable that WILL, CONSISTENTLY deliver 100 MBps over even 125 meters....

But it wont give you better data (and by extension better sound) . There is no denying that quality of cable will improve quality of transmission but the parameters of measuring these improvements have to be established. Yes you can improve the bandwidth with better cable, yes you can run the cable for longer distance but improved data is not possible . Its not a theory many are claiming it to be but a mathematical formula with a very very low failure chances of bad data going undetected. For analogy, a silver cabinet may look more desirable, a visual improvement, but will not sound better than a black cabinet. What you specified in your earlier big post is mostly half true, as deficiency is taken care of by the software you use, or outright incorrect. Believe it or not, the biggest factor in any purchase decision for enterprise IT systems is data integrity not performance. No wonder, the files you read from your disks or the bank account balance data you get across the internets is always correct . For your reference, the difference between 0 and 4294967296 is just one bit. One bit flipped from 0 to 1 means I can become a 400 crorepati from a roadpati .

 

[denom]

:lol: I was away for a day & lots of 'data' has been 'transferred'

Bhagwan, nice to see that you are adding more varieties of snakes for 'testing' purpose. This looks like a very interesting path that you are going to take & that too for our benefit
:clapping:

May I suggest a few, well suggestions that will make things more interesting???
Will need the following to conduct yet another 'test' - lets call it a 'veiled test' of which you too will be a part of.
1) Blindfolds (the no. varying on the no. of participants being called/invited for the VT[veiled test])
2) A trusted friend/PDP (plug-deplug) person who will change the various snakes during conducting the VT
3) Your infinite patience & customary 'khatirdari' for accommodating people(both types - open & close minded that is) over for being part of the VT.

I feel by doing so, the 'doodh ka doodh aur paani ka paani' matter will be resolved, which will be of great benefit to all of us.

What say Bhagwan??? Your questions/comments to my suggestions???

Post #38

:lol:

Nice way to quote, thanks Bhagwan for teaching me something new :clapping:

Alas it is taken as a quick escape :indifferent14:

Sadly, the debate will continue & even if you post the result subsequently after metra-hetra-tera bytes (something made up on the fly) of data has been gobbled by the snakes, post burn-in, phase I, II & so on... this still stands as lost opportunity.

As my 'chaddi-buddy' Keith has quoted, its your prerogative, since.... well we all know the reason(s) & shall respect your decision. Another gem imparted from this is that Blind buy is ok but blind listening is not. Thanks.

Mean while I will humour myself. No offense meant but of course