CAT 7 - Ethernet Cable - Revelation Audio Labs - USA -

[IndianEars]

Yes you can improve the bandwidth with better cable, yes you can run the cable for longer distance but improved data is not possible

I am not sure I agree with you....

The limit of transmission is established when the error rates exceeds the specified limit.... ie Better Data ( less errors) ARE transmitted by better cable.

 

[IndianEars]

What you specified in your earlier big post is mostly half true, as deficiency is taken care of by the software you use, or outright incorrect. Believe it or not, the biggest factor in any purchase decision for enterprise IT systems is data integrity not performance. No wonder, the files you read from your disks or the bank account balance data you get across the internets is always correct . For your reference, the difference between 0 and 4294967296 is just one bit. One bit flipped from 0 to 1 means I can become a 400 crorepati from a roadpati .

The data redundancy and error correction used in Computer data is quite different that what is used in Digital Audio.

A simplistic inference that what works in one environment will provide perfect results in another is just not correct IMO.

It comes back to the main point that I am making .... It is incorrect to infer ... especially if you do not factor in Second order ( Apparently Hidden / unknown) factors that are always at play.

 

[Shivam]

I recently streamed a music file from a server in US. The poor file had to travel through various computers/nodes, cables of various kinds going on the ground and sea-bed, through the pathetic telephone cables in India with multiple joints all the way to my house and then over a wireless network to my network player !

Now I do salute the engineers behind this who made the whole system, but I will still wait for the final results of what Bhagwan finds with his experiment.

My interest is -
If there is a difference then why ?
If there is no difference then what will he do with the ordered cable?

 

[bhagwan]

My interest is -
If there is a difference then why ?
If there is no difference then what will he do with the ordered cable?

Sir,

I too want to know if there is a diff;
If there - then we have a problem - cause it cannot be explained.

However, I have a small suggestion to make of you;
If you can do this - do try...

The Song you streamed from where ever - listen to it.
Then Take the CD & Rip it in Pure Wave & then play it off the same DAC & Audio System & tell me what the results are...
Please.

Shall appreciate.

Finally if there is no diff in the CAT Cables - I may have lost some money - but I could have learnt a bit - or maybe not;
It is choice I have made & so far I am not regretting it.

 

[mowgli80]

I am not sure I agree with you....

The limit of transmission is established when the error rates exceeds the specified limit.... ie Better Data ( less errors) ARE transmitted by better cable.

You are mixing up integrity with reliability. Your argument only stands if the system uses erroneous data to generate the wrong sound. However, that is not the case. The bad data is detected, discarded and a retransmission is requested. All it does is reduce the bandwidth i.e. the amount of reliable data that can be transferred at a time (which I have already conceded will improve with better cable). If the bandwidth degrades extensively, you will observe breaks in the song play as there is not enough data to decode the sound. However, you will NOT hear a degraded sound i.e. it will not have any effect on sound quality.

The data redundancy and error correction used in Computer data is quite different that what is used in Digital Audio.

A simplistic inference that what works in one environment will provide perfect results in another is just not correct IMO.

It comes back to the main point that I am making .... It is incorrect to infer ... especially if you do not factor in Second order ( Apparently Hidden / unknown) factors that are always at play.

Context here is to use ethernet cable to transmit data across a network of two computers, which will use the same data redundancy and error correction used in Computer data and not digital audio protocol. I agree with you that digital audio MAY not be as reliable the ethernet is but this is a different ballgame altogether .

 

[arj]

I simply dont get these arguments. why cant we just wait for the result ? either parties are only talking from their own understanding and perceptions. obviously no one has done this before..so lets wait to see what happens Really.
sad part is someone has actually taklen the pains to try it out..and here we are passing out judgements even before the test....thats is perhaps the most Anti-Science !!!

thank god Vindoo is in jail considering the passion wont be surprised if there is some betting/fixing potential here

Bhagwan, if this could be fixed then all you have to say is there is a difference, pocket the fix money and change your statement...either way you recover the cost of the cable.

 

[Shivam]

Sir,

I too want to know if there is a diff;
If there - then we have a problem - cause it cannot be explained.

However, I have a small suggestion to make of you;
If you can do this - do try...

The Song you streamed from where ever - listen to it.
Then Take the CD & Rip it in Pure Wave & then play it off the same DAC & Audio System & tell me what the results are...
Please.

Shall appreciate.

Finally if there is no diff in the CAT Cables - I may have lost some money - but I could have learnt a bit - or maybe not;
It is choice I have made & so far I am not regretting it.

I'll surely try that.
I will try ripping a few music files from a disc. Send a copy to a friend of mine in another country and tell him to stream the files so that I can listen to it and then will compare it to my own copy. That should take away the difference in rip qualities and mastering.

Regarding your experiment -
If you get the difference then we have to learn something more.
If you don't hear any difference and then want to sell the cable at a highly discounted price then let me know, if I can afford it, I'll buy it to 'show off' to my friends and maybe include it in my signature on the forum.

 

[bhagwan]

Gentlemen;

USB Cables should not matter - they do
HDMI Cables should not matter - they do
Power Cords Cables should not matter - they do
Digital Cables should not matter - they do

[All of the above are 'audio' related] - Sound Performance i.e.

Here is another Cable - Network Cable. Cat 5 / 6 / 7
This too should not make a diff to the audio reproduction - mostly it will not.
If it does - I will know - if it does not - all of you know & I too will learn [the hard way] !

@ Shivam - If you want to buy Ethernet Cat 7 Cables - I could get them for you @ 50 % mark down - do let me know. Sorry O/T ! Freight Extra;;;

BTW - Acoustic Revive makes another product - supposed to make a diff to the sound - I never tried it - but a dear friend swears by it....
LAN-Isolator RLI-1?ACOUSTIC REVIVE

6moons audio reviews: Acoustic Revive LAN-1.0 PA & RLI-1

Free SHIP Acoustic Revive LAN Isolator RLI 1 Eliminate Transmission Noise Japan | eBay
Rs. 15/- K approx [INR]

Now what is a 'hog' wash or 'snake charmer' I do not know - a few reviews are there for all to see....[maybe they will look 'sharper' with a 'purple' eyeglass - since the cable is from that same colour family] !!

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Scientific reasoning.... especially when applied without taking into second order effects often yield incorrect conclusions. That is why all 'Theories .... no mater how scientifically 'thorougher" need to be verified with actual experiments and observations.

I am list a few such erroneous conclusions:

1. Since Digital Data Consists simply of On & off ( Yes or No ), hence:

a. Data sent Must be the same as data received.

( That would imply: All transmission is perfect. There are no transmission errors, there is no jitter during transmission !)

b. A compressed File, when stored, transmitted and decompressed must be a Bit perfect copy of the original uncompressed file.

( This would imply that there are no errors in the compression and decompression process. Also there are no errors during storage, transmission and retrieval. The storage & transmission medium are perfect .... no drop outs, no noise, just purrr fect ! )

c. Any program can be used to convert FLAC to Wav files. The results will be the same

( I have posted on this, a couple of weeks ago, on this forum


Then ofcourse there is the classic 'scientific' howler:

The Bumble bee is aerodaynamically a very bad shape. Hence it cannot fly.

Ofcourse the bumble bee does not know that .... it just continues to fly.

... ... ...

First, let us deal with the bumble bee argument. This is nothing but smoke from the burning snake oil. It gets in the eyes and stings horribly.

I'm not sure if it is a myth, or if science really did consider the bumble-bee's weight/shape/size ratio impossible for flying. I do know that, until the necessary research on aircraft wing shape was conducted, science did not understand why and how a boat could sail to windward. However, they were very well aware that it could, just as they knew bumble bees fly.

What science didn't understand 150 years ago has nothing whatsoever to do with this.

Science understands the network cable. Science developed, designed, and created the standards for network cables. Improvement is possible within the realms of networking. That happens and new products, cables, methods get accepted, certified and made available. In other words...

That is why all 'Theories .... no mater how scientifically 'thorougher" need to be verified with actual experiments and observations.

This happens for years with these things that are, as I pointed out before, now an essential part of the commercial world. Do you think network cables grow on trees, waiting to be discovered? Bumble bees, on the other hand...

Now, a couple of erroneous understandings...

Data sent Must be the same as data received.

This has nothing to do with whether it (ok, they ) is ones and zeros. If sent over a reliable system, data received will be the same. There are different protocols on the internet. Hopefully, when sending music over a LAN we use a reliable one. If not, all bets are off!

A compressed File, when stored, transmitted and decompressed must be a Bit perfect copy of the original uncompressed file.

Yes, it must. If not there is a problem. Actually, you are supposed to be a part of the system that ensures this, by examining the checksum hyeah:

Any program can be used to convert FLAC to Wav files. The results will be the same

Smoke screen again, anyway: we are not talking about uncompression of music files, we are talking about LANs. LANS like, as has been mentioned, banks, military, hospitals use. Yes: they are good. You don't think "good" is enough? How many errors do you think Gigabyte ethernet gives you room to correct?

Science has not stopped. Of course it is still trying to explain things, and of course it continues to find it got things wrong, but here, we are not really talking about science, we are talking about off-the-shelf technology. nobody is going to shock-horror-announce, "Hey, Ethernet doesn't actually work." any more than they are going to announce that a lawn mower doesn't cut grass.

Galileo's stones worked according to the laws of science. So do ethernet cables.

And even if this was all wrong, what you makes you think that some audiophile cable company can come up with something better?

I'm not a scientist, but sat through enough sales and management meetings to recognise good arguments from bad. That doesn't need blind testing (Hmmm... wait... )

...That is really not true. there are levels of performance, even amongst cables.

That is why I said "within the same category." Of course the different types of cable/transmission technologies deliver different speeds and maintain reliability over different distances: that is what the whole ethernet evolution is about.

I'm not able to understand why there are Cat 5 Cat 6 and Cat 7 cables? Pardon my ignorance, what is the difference.

Just that. They have been evolved to get more data, more reliably, over longer distances. Mowgli80 covers the technical details far better than I am able to.

I do not have much idea on how as complex analogue thing as music comprising of a large number of harmonics is converted to seemingly simple 0s and 1s and converted back to analogue, I'm not so sure.

Then what you are doubting is the principles of digitising music, rather than the principles of networking --- you would not be the only one, but it is a very different discussion.

The crux of the argument here is that networking handles data as data and it doesn't matter what the data is. There is some room for argument with, say, Firewire, or even USB, because they are dealing in specifically audio (when used for audio) but ethernet is, categorically, not. If it can't get your music right, then it can't be relied upon to get anything else right! And there is a vast, vast amount of it in the world saying that it can.

He he he Thad, that is going overboard.

:lol: Yes, probably. It takes a better man than me to remain cool in the face of $600 purple flyleads hyeah:

when I told my cousins that my total system costs 4 odd lakhs, they exclaimed, "don't your neighbours complain! They would've gone deaf by now"

Ha ha... I asked you almost the same question! But not based on the cost of your sytem. Come to think of it: I didn't ask you what your system cost!

The point I want to make is, in the first instance, the measure of car is not the luxury but seating capacity. In the second instance, the measure of music system is the decibel level and not SQ.

But on the internet (nobody can hear you scream ) there is no luxury data, or loud data... just data.

(actually, some of that is not strictly true, and someone like Mowgli80 could probably tell us about techniques that prioritise one kind of content over another (QOS?) and also that, I think (but I'm far from sure) that something like YouTube probably does not use a reliable protocol, because a probably-invisible-anyway glitch in a cat video is not very important, and the error checking and retransmits would simply increase costs. --- but this is stuff for the techie pedants: your LAN, with certified cables, is working as well as any network in the world. Unless you wind your cables round florescent tubes, in which case the fact that they are purple won't save you.)

 

[doors666]

most probably you will be using tcp for transmission, which guarantees delivery of correct data, even with a lousy 10mbit network, even with pathetic cables, u will still have enough bandwidth for music.... so where are the sonic gains going to come from...

 

[Jazzhead]

Touchy lot around here .... posts being deleted and all .... is it the police ... was anything offensive said ?

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Perhaps we offended the gods of audiophillia. Mustn't do that. Oh dear no.

most probably you will be using tcp for transmission, which guarantees delivery of correct data, even with a lousy 10mbit network, even with pathetic cables, u will still have enough bandwidth for music.... so where are the sonic gains going to come from...

Yes, spot on. I don't know if I said it in this thread or another: even the old coax 10Mb ethernet would do all this just fine.

 

[panditji]

Guys, just let Bhagwan post his comments and then maybe you can get after him....Atleast give him a chance to post what he thinks about the difference if any...

The best way to prove him wrong would be to go over to his house if he permits and listen to it yourself (do leave your egos behind if the results come out otherwise)....If you all are proved correct, then pat yourself on the back, else let Bhagwan decide what to do with his money....

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Sure he can decide what to do with his money. I still think the sellers should be prosecuted, though.

It isn't about whether he, or any other individual can hear a difference. Even if he does, or you do, or I do, it does not validate this product. We hear things for all sorts of reasons.

This is not about Bhagwan: it is about the product.

 

[bhagwan]

Guys, just let Bhagwan post his comments and then maybe you can get after him....Atleast give him a chance to post what he thinks about the difference if any...

The best way to prove him wrong would be to go over to his house if he permits and listen to it yourself (do leave your egos behind if the results come out otherwise)....If you all are proved correct, then pat yourself on the back, else let Bhagwan decide what to do with his money....

Thank you sir for that;

I am only stating that I have done this 'Cat 5 / 6 / 7' because in my Computer Audio set up - as per J Play Mini V 5.1 - I need to connect the 2 PC's via an Ethernet Cable. Therefore I am trying different Ethernet Cables - Now what the result will be - I too am curious to find out;

a]
I am not selling any Cat Cables here

b]
I am not endorsing any Cat Cables here

c]
I am not asking any one to buy or try and cables - I have done it - except Supra that La Kozy Impex is to 'lend' to me.

d]
If this works or does not work - it will not matter - cause to the best of my humble understanding - no one on this forum has a 2 computer audio set up - with the J Play Mini V5.1 installed - I may be wrong here - so please do feel free to correct me if I have made any mistake.

e]
In my case, that Cat Cable is doing a very specific job - yes it may be as per TCPIP protocols - but it is used to 'communicate' between the 2 computers - hibernate it - send instructions to shut it down - when music is playing & also send the music from 1 machine to the 2nd in its own encrypted form.

There 'may' be other things it is doing - that I may not be aware of & therefore I cannot list them here....[I do not know of them myself - so I cannot shed light on it]

I am just saying - technically - all you guys are 100 % right.
The change in Cat Cables - should not change the sound.
However, unless I or any one else - tries it - let us just hold the horses back;

Besides, if I had to comment on the financial implications of this - not at all important.
The amount I have spent on this Cable is too small to warrant a comment...
The effort involved in installing it / experimenting with it etc. etc. is far far more expensive [time & effort cost] - so let us keep financials out of it.....

O/T - Both my computers are fed by Echole Obsession Power Cords - forget that - the female Euro Schuko socket from which the power comes to the computer cost more than these CAT Cables - so let us not get into financials - it is really not important....


Let me do this experiment & post my findings here - so that even if 1 person wants to try it & it makes a diff [if it does] then we are making some progress....

 

[bhagwan]

Sure he can decide what to do with his money. I still think the sellers should be prosecuted, though.

It isn't about whether he, or any other individual can hear a difference. Even if he does, or you do, or I do, it does not validate this product. We hear things for all sorts of reasons.

This is not about Bhagwan: it is about the product.

Thank You Sir,
I respect what you have said;;;

It was never about me, it was always about the Cat Cable.
Will it make a diff ?
It should not; Even the person that is my Tech Support & back bone to my Computer Audio Set Up - Mr. Satyam Bachani [I want to thank him for what he has done for me] was 'laughing' at me when I ordered these cables...
He is a lazy bum - a dear friend & a 'keen' audiophile - super hearing - Kaiser Kaweru / Playback Design installed in his listening room etc. etc.
He too is most curious to get this installed & 'listen' to it....

To make a long story short, I am the one that is trying to swim 'against the flow' !
In all probability the different cables will not make any sonic diff - but until I have done the installation & the test, I do not want to comment on anything - let me listen & then I shall pass a judgement...

Thank You all - for bearing with my meanderings - I truly appreciate it & salute you all for your time & comments here - even the snake & charmer ones - it just helps me to go on...:licklips:

 

[panditji]

Thad, sir apologies but you cannot go after the sellers as long as there are buyers...If you are still keen, then I can forward the addresses of Gucci, Burberry, Patek Phillipe, Hublot, Lousy Vutton, The Leela Coffee shop (Chanakyapuri, Delhi) and some more and you can get after them as they also sell products at costs which defy all logic...

No offence sir but could not resist...

 

[bhagwan]

Gucci, Burberry, Patek Phillipe, Hublot, Lousy Vutton, The Leela Coffee shop (Chanakyapuri, Delhi) and some more and you can get after them as they also sell products at costs which defy all logic...
..

Sir,
O/T - Sorry [I apologies to myself]
P.P. [Patek.com] has 100 % right to charge what it does - 100 % logical - when we meet, I will make you understand why ?
I have not been to the new [relatively] Leela Coffee Shop - is it that EXP ? Rs. 1/- K for a coffee ? [maybe more - it in ND & Chanakyapuri]...

 

[Santy]

Thad, sir apologies but you cannot go after the sellers as long as there are buyers...If you are still keen, then I can forward the addresses of Gucci, Burberry, Patek Phillipe, Hublot, Lousy Vutton, The Leela Coffee shop (Chanakyapuri, Delhi) and some more and you can get after them as they also sell products at costs which defy all logic...

I guess, fashion/ lifestyle works totally different. Its not the cost of leather or coffee beans or glass, they have a 'premium' attached to it. It is believed to add 'pride' for the customers using them.

In hifi world, audiophiles don't respect premium as much as quality and VFM. Just my opinion. They won't buy if they don't hear a difference. But yes, as long as there are buyers, we cannot go after sellers. Even if we 'prove' them to be unethical, some of their own customers will jump for their support since they believe in them.

 

[bhagwan]

In hifi world, audiophiles don't respect premium as much as quality and VFM. Just my opinion. They won't buy if they don't hear a difference.

100 % agree with you;
a]
There should be Value
b]
There should be an audible difference
c]
Quality must be good [high]
d]
Build + Finish + Reliability + Service + Back Up etc.

These imho are some of the things I look for in Audio - not necessary in the order as mentioned above;