CAT 7 - Ethernet Cable - Revelation Audio Labs - USA -

[denom]

Sir,
I would give it to you today;
However, the full panel has not visited as yet.
Therefore I am 'forced' to wait.
Only once they get done with it - do I want to post...
That way, I get a 'cross' section of opinions.
BTW - no no [not now] - later...

Yes, do take your time. The august panel of yours surely will help you & no 'spoilers' - rightly so

BTW, this whole thread has turned into 1 'soap opera' of sorts, which has captivated the collective interests of the whole forum whether people like it or not

Now, just hope that this soap does not drag too long like the ones on the idiot box & ends with the final 'episode' being 'aired' in the near future. I am sure you will do the needful once the tests are completed & opinions of all 'panelists' compiled & cross checked.

Congrats for achieving soap stardom :clapping:

 

[Shahrukh]

How will this help ?
They can say what they want to here - there is no restriction - so long as it is a serious comment & not under the belt jokes etc.
I am 100 % OK to listen to criticism & reasons & explanations - if there are any.

Right now, people are reacting to an idea. In a new post you will have reactions to an actual observation. Much more meaningful, IMO.

 

[arj]

Some cryptic communication going on?

Naah nothing cryptic. technically i have a predecided notion that there should not be a difference since it is TCP/IP and what flows is not music which works in time domain (unlike SPDIF) Since it has "packet"s which dont have the "timing" built into its communication.
but Bhagwan, whom I have been in touch with over many (y)ears is one of the few whose ears i would trust implicitly and if he says he hears something i would believe him.

so the above is interesting for me .

but something tells me i dont want to know the results...audio life is complicated enough as is

 

[captrajesh]

Bhagwan, whom I have been in touch with over many (y)ears is one of the few whose ears i would trust implicitly and if he says he hears something i would believe him.

:clapping:

something tells me i dont want to know the results

Sixth sense! There you go again. Ducking into my flame proof suit.

audio life is complicated enough as is

:lol:

 

[hemantwaghe]

Yes, do take your time. The august panel of yours surely will help you & no 'spoilers' - rightly so

BTW, this whole thread has turned into 1 'soap opera' of sorts, which has captivated the collective interests of the whole forum whether people like it or not

Now, just hope that this soap does not drag too long like the ones on the idiot box & ends with the final 'episode' being 'aired' in the near future. I am sure you will do the needful once the tests are completed & opinions of all 'panelists' compiled & cross checked.

Congrats for achieving soap stardom :clapping:

Yes as many soap operas end when views get boared ... without any conclusion!!hyeah:hyeah:hyeah:hyeah:

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Now, just for the sake of the experiment - let us take for a 'given' that all the Cables cost Rs. 200/- to Rs. 400/-none cost more

Then I stand by everything that I said, except it is probably not a scam. For any product there will be a range of prices around an average. That is not a problem. One might pay more for some more-durable form of RJ45 connector (how horrible and fragile they are!); one may pay more for coded (or even pretty) colours. That is all valid. But not for better sound, not over standard ethernet protocols and equipment.

I keep telling friends that, yes, I am going to lay off this thread. Move on. I keep failing

 

[bhagwan]

But not for better sound, not over standard ethernet protocols and equipment.

I keep telling friends that, yes, I am going to lay off this thread. Move on. I keep failing

Sir,
Price is out of the way;
Now we have 4 / 5 cables that are under Rs. 400/- per 1.5 to 2.0 M
The question now is not 'scam'
It is pure performance - since price is 'low' & all cables are generic.

Of the 4 panelist that visited - leaving me out - only 1 person liked the RAL.
The 'Others' liked a mix of 3 different cables.
The main thing is that I respect their hearing & they are experience audio listeners. None of them play the computer audio game - all are pure CD Player & Vinyl listeners.
EMM Labs / Chord / Electrocompaniet etc. etc.
So no one has a interest in what they were listening to - either way & it would not make a difference to their lives.

To come back to you T.E.G.
If the RAL is out - the scam is gone. All the rest are under Rs. 400/-
So now, it is about why should 4 cables in a set up sound different ?
Can you or any other person offer any answer to this ?
Without making a joke or fun of it - it is serious - this was done & the difference was 100 % present - so no one is playing a joke here...

 

[bhagwan]

Yes as many soap operas end when views get boared ... without any conclusion!!hyeah:hyeah:hyeah:hyeah:

Sir,
Sure, you may have got 'bored' & I am sorry if I could not provide any entertainment to you - but my intent here was not to entertain but to do some 'serious' listening' & come to a conclusion - do CAT Cables change the sound ?
The experiment is not 100 % complete.
It is still going on.
After 4 persons have heard - we - panelist do have some idea of what is going on;
a]
The RAL's price does not justify its performance.
Only 1 person liked it the most - the other 3 did not.
b]
The Other Generic Cables performed well - but all had their own distinct signature.
c]
Cat 6 was preferred over the others
d]
Belden Home Made [DIY] was preferred to Belden Factory Terminated
e]
Blue [dark] from Taiwan was consistent strong performer - 2nd in all persons listening preferences.

There is lots more - but will hold till all have finished the listening & then we shall decide & post.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

only 1 person liked the RAL.

But they heard a difference? This is what matters most, because this is what is technically impossible. Better or worse, liked or disliked, don't come into it, Just difference --- because it should not be there.

I think that, also, with similarly, ordinarily priced cables, unless anybody has a secret Belden fixation or something, expectation bias should not figure.

Back to Sherlock Homes' principle.

I just wish you could tell us it had been a blind test...

b]
The Other Generic Cables performed well - but all had their own distinct signature.
c]
Cat 6 was preferred over the others
d]
Belden Home Made [DIY] was preferred to Belden Factory Terminated

The only difference I ever found between a self-made network flylead and a bought one is that my own had a failure rate so high I gave up trying.

In terms of possibility, we're going downhill all the way here. I can understand if you don't like to Blind test when choosing equipment, I can't say I have ever done so (my position is that manufacturers/reviewers should do it to back up their claims) but, if you are to prove the impossible, to others, at least, I can't see any other way forward than to try that discipline.

Can't fathom why would someone want to disagree with something which they have not even experienced! Truly beats me!!!

These things are, to me, a utility item. I must have handled dozens if not hundreds and I must have thrown away quite a few too: physical failure is far from unknown, especially when people somehow, despite careful and neat installation, manage to put table legs on them and wheel chairs over them. I was only a systems manager (small department, so getting hands dirty too), so you can imagine how many a network specialist deals with. This might give you a clue as to why I reacted in such a way to the extremes of the high-priced products, and why I need more than a sighted testing to justify differences in "ordinary" leads.

There's plenty of backing for the need for blind testing. And plenty of resistance to it, too, because it is known to catch out even pros.

 

[sbg]

Then I stand by everything that I said, except it is probably not a scam. For any product there will be a range of prices around an average. That is not a problem. One might pay more for some more-durable form of RJ45 connector (how horrible and fragile they are!); one may pay more for coded (or even pretty) colours. That is all valid. But not for better sound, not over standard ethernet protocols and equipment.

I keep telling friends that, yes, I am going to lay off this thread. Move on. I keep failing

Ok Thad, I'll give you company for "keep Failing".

So, am I expecting Bhagwan sir to be a 100% Perfect in matters of BLIND TESTs? - just the ability to distinguish the sound and co-relate the unknow source and the sound.
as Arj seems to put forth a confidence and an Understanding that Respected sir could whiff out how the air moves around.However subtle.

This is only a question for me to understand your goodself. As I hardly see people with a fair degree of Accuracy above 50%.

 

[bhagwan]

Then I stand by everything that I said, except it is probably not a scam.

One might pay more for some more-durable form of RJ45 connector (how horrible and fragile they are!);

Sir,
I respect you for holding your ground;
To get to that RJ45 Connector.
You said a 100 % correct thing.
These CAT Cables are made to a price point;
Therefore Quality is 100 % compromised.
I too feel that the RJ 45 can be improved & that too in a huge manner.
However, the cost involved may not justify it.

Just like XLR Connectors - just because they [xlr] are made much more in quantity viz - a - viz to RCA Connectors - although they are more complex to make - more material is used - are far far cheaper to the RCA counterpart.
Rs. 150/- is to Rs. 600/- [Neutrik - Profi Gold / Neutrik XLR]

You know between Nuetrik XLR & other 'good / respected' brand of XLR's there is such a huge diff in price ?
X Shadow
Bocchino
Oyaide Focus
Furutech F1
Just to name a few.

All this is because of volume - nothing else.
If volume is large - price drops & that is why things get cheaper....

No One in the Networking World asks for a Good RJ 45 connector - hence the quality never improves - I assume;;;

 

[bhagwan]

But they heard a difference? This is what matters most, because this is what is technically impossible. Better or worse, liked or disliked, don't come into it, Just difference --- because it should not be there.

I can't see any other way forward than to try that discipline.

Sir,

A few Things;

a]
Difference was 100 % present in all 5 cables - we will stick to 4 - so that price does not come into play.

b]
The test was 'blind'

All Cables were given Code Symbols & the participants were given a pad & were asked to write what they liked & rate it

c]
I was changing the cables at the back & no one could see what I was putting.

d]
Even if you saw, you would not know what was what - all were generic cables - Schneider / Belden / Taiwan Make / Spectra Belden DIY etc.

For what it is worth - I will / can vouch for the persons that visited & did the listening - they are 'serious' & well traveled audiophiles with 1 to 2 decades of listening experience in audio & have traveled with me to several countries & shows together - so I know how they can listen & what they are listening for;

SOME OF THE BEST EARS I have come across for sure...

 

[madbullram]

Guys: Please stick to the topic of discussion. Lets not post unwanted things.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Sir,
I respect you for holding your ground;
To get to that RJ45 Connector.
You said a 100 % correct thing.
These CAT Cables are made to a price point;
Therefore Quality is 100 % compromised.
I too feel that the RJ 45 can be improved & that too in a huge manner.
However, the cost involved may not justify it.

You are partly right. The cables are made to a price, but, most importantly, they are made to a specification. They have to be. They have to perform, if not identically, at least to a minimum.

But, when we speak of standards, does that mean we speak of perfection? Far from it. Name a standard, and you can find people saying that either it should have been better, or that something entirely different should have been adopted. Within our audio world, we could mention CDs as an example, and, although I do not do video/TV, I gather that HDMI is very, very far from perfect.

Why the RJ45 connector was chosen I do not know (cost might have been an influence) but you won't find a computer pro who has had to pull one out of a tangle of cables under a desk, or even from an undisciplined patch panel, who has any love for them at all.

Thank you for further details of your test. Did you test each cable multiple times?

sbg asks if I expect 100%, and mentions that he has seldom seen over 50%. Well, 50% success in cable testing would impress me --- but when I read about these tests, the statistical bods say, no, 50% is no better than pure chance!

 

[Shivam]

Let me also throw a spanner in the works -

Test should be at least 'Double' blind.
Difference if felt should be reproducible on the same system again and results also should match.
The difference should be statistically significant.

(Still waiting for the results of the test though)

 

[bhagwan]

Thank you for further details of your test. Did you test each cable multiple times?

Yes;
We went through 5 Cables first.
Then 5 Cables again.
Short listed 3
Went through 3 & then 3 again.
Until we finished for the session - no one was told what was what.
However, the cable make / model / brand etc. was not important [to me at least] since I was 1st trying to establish if there was difference at all.
A double blind test is OK if I want to vet if the results of the cable preference choice is 100 % correct.
Here, that was not mu intent.
I just wanted to see [hear] if there was a difference in sound between the different CAT Cables.
So weather a was best or c was best or that d performed better than b - all
this was not the priority;
All said, what has come out so far - [a] all cables 'sound' different
all panelist did not like the same cable - in fact some did not like the cable at all which was liked by others.

I have always stated that cables are very very personal.
What floats 1 persons boat, may not float the other persons boat.

But, these CAT's were the 'cheapest' tune / equalizer devices that I have ever come across. Under 400/- Rs. & they can change the sound of a system that is far far more expensive - like air in the tyre of a car - cheapest thing can change the performance & handling of an expensive car;; Sorry OT.

Guys: Please stick to the topic of discussion. Lets not post unwanted things.

- madbullram

Sir, Thank You; Appreciate.

 

[sidvee]

All said, what has come out so far - [a] all cables 'sound' different
all panelist did not like the same cable - in fact some did not like the cable at all which was liked by others.

Thanks Bhagwan - Very interesting results - so evidently there is audible difference in ethernet cables.

Btw there was a lively discussion in computer audiophile on this - from users - so interested FM's can peruse (some enlightning arguments for and against). Hope I can post the link here with breaking any forum rules. Mod's please feel free to delete with advance apologies if I did break rules.

'Audiophile' Ethernet Cables.

Cheers,
Sid

 

[bhagwan]

Thanks Bhagwan - Very interesting results - so evidently there is audible difference in ethernet cables.
Sid

AudioQuest Ethernet Cables | AudioStream

Yes Sir;
So far, that has been the 'synopsis'
The CAT Cables do have an affect on the sound from a Computer.

 

[sidvee]

AudioQuest Ethernet Cables | AudioStream

Thanks Bhagwan,
I bought a AQ "cinnamon" usb cable for $60 and am very happy with it. Appears that with AQ's wide range from $29 to $500 on ethernet cables as well, there is one for everyone, from the skeptic to the believer.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[Shivam]

Now to dig deeper and understand why the cables sound different even if they are performing their duties as per specifications and carrying only data and not music.

Interesting thread !