Designing A Dedicated Listening Room

[rsjaurr]

Just thinking if 27 feet lenght isn't too long? Not able to think what should I do if the room is too long. Any ideas?
So far this is my plan.

View attachment 61380

For big powerful towers 27' room is not a problem. My room is 30' long and Focals nicely fills the whole room without breaking much sweat.
In fact you can adjust your sitting position accordingly and experiment.

And why do you want the wires to be hidden in the wall or the floor? You will be increasing the length of these cables. If and when you want to try or change that cable it will be cumbersome to do that. All these high end wires are good looking too so let the other see and admire these.

 

[Radni14]

Most probably, I am gonna install a solar power system and will see if its possible to have a dedicated line from the plant directly.

I guess if the source is solar power, the chances of surge are very less?

I am also thinking of not having the equipment between the speakers but on either side of the MLP.

Any reason why the conduits should run in the floor and not in the walls? I would prefer full carpet instead of wooden flooring. Any use of wood over carpet?

Conduits should run under floor and not in walls to cut down on distance between two points, which will reduce length of IC cables and spkr cables. MK Electric makes high quality Alluminium rectangular extruded channel s , different sizes 50x50 to 150x150 mm. I used , I think 50x75 mm section.
Never put electric power cables and signal cable in one channel.
I like channels undr the floor to make cables not coming in way, keep floor look clean free of cables .
I like teak wood flooring better for natural sound, I further throw small carpet or rug wherever needed.

 

[IndianEars]

Just thinking if 27 feet lenght isn't too long? Not able to think what should I do if the room is too long. Any ideas?

27 Feet Room length will probably work to your advantage ... you can move the speakers further to the centre of the room along with the listening position. This will provide ample space behind the listening position to minimise immediate (image smearing) reflections from behind the Head.

Take a look at the Cardas website and their recommendations for speaker placement here

 

[IndianEars]

Thats Interesting and matter of research thanks for bringing this up.

Solar Panels put out low voltage .... around 12 Volts DC.

A (Noisy) switched Mode Inverter is used to step up and convert to 240 VAC ...

The switching Inverter will create a noisy Mains.... (In addition to its less than ideal Peak Power delivery capability, that I had mentioned earlier)

 

[bloredude]

Just thinking if 27 feet lenght isn't too long? Not able to think what should I do if the room is too long. Any ideas?
So far this is my plan.

View attachment 61380

The room length should be least of your worries here for a number of reasons.

1. Your room size is pretty darn close to the golden ratio. Why would you change that! Though you could reduce it by one foot in order to make it a perfectly golden ratio room.
2. A larger room allows you to set your system up along the long wall (for an entirely different sound from the same system).
3. A larger room gives you the freedom to pull the speakers out in the room, which can be a huge plus for creating excellent sound-stage (one where the speakers disappear).
4. In case some day you want to convert it to a full-fledged entertainment room (aka private theater) the large length will be a boon.

If there is one thing I'd like to change in that room then it will be the position of the entrance. I'd like to position the entrance behind the speakers so that it interferes less with the soundstage. In the current schematic, the sound image is likely to require some balancing due to the opening on the right hand side at the back.

PS: FM @IndianEars's post on this is spot on.

 

[Shinto]

Solar Panels put out low voltage .... around 12 Volts DC.

A (Noisy) switched Mode Inverter is used to step up and convert to 240 VAC ...

The switching Inverter will create a noisy Mains.... (In addition to its less than ideal Peak Power delivery capability, that I had mentioned earlier)

An inverter adding noise to the system could be true.
I am not sure what is meant here by peak power delivery.I assume the system is grid connected.If that is the case ,the comment doesn't apply as it is no different than a normal supply. However if the system is off grid, then yes, this could be true depending on the size of the inverter/system. But then the inverter/system size should be well above the the audio load if it is meant to power the whole house .

 

[IndianEars]

In post #111 Vivek had said
"Most probably, I am gonna install a solar power system and will see if its possible to have a dedicated line from the plant directly."

I presume that means "off the grid"


There is no substitute to juice directly from the grid for ideal peak power delivery.

Even passive line filters with series inductors affect dynamics. A lot depends on how demanding n revealing yr setup is. YMMV

 

[Vivek Batra]

The room length should be least of your worries here for a number of reasons.

1. Your room size is pretty darn close to the golden ratio. Why would you change that! Though you could reduce it by one foot in order to make it a perfectly golden ratio room.
2. A larger room allows you to set your system up along the long wall (for an entirely different sound from the same system).
3. A larger room gives you the freedom to pull the speakers out in the room, which can be a huge plus for creating excellent sound-stage (one where the speakers disappear).
4. In case some day you want to convert it to a full-fledged entertainment room (aka private theater) the large length will be a boon.

If there is one thing I'd like to change in that room then it will be the position of the entrance. I'd like to position the entrance behind the speakers so that it interferes less with the soundstage. In the current schematic, the sound image is likely to require some balancing due to the opening on the right hand side at the back.

PS: FM @IndianEars's post on this is spot on.

The final room length/breadth will be reduced by almost 6 to 8 inches with brick cladding on all the walls. There is no option to change the entrancem though speakers can be placed along the left wall then the entrance will be behind the speakers

 

[Shinto]

In post #111 Vivek had said
"Most probably, I am gonna install a solar power system and will see if its possible to have a dedicated line from the plant directly."

I presume that means "off the grid"


There is no substitute to juice directly from the grid for ideal peak power delivery.

Even passive line filters with series inductors affect dynamics. A lot depends on how demanding n revealing yr setup is. YMMV

My point is, even if it is Offgrid, the size of the inverter system will decide this.If it is sized properly , it is no different than grid supply.The rated power consumption of an electrical device is the maximum it is going to consume no matter what.So if the source,i.e Grid or any other similar off grid system, generator etc is sized to supply that, then it should be fine.My above comments are purely based on the working principle of an electrical equipment.The Audiophile world has a lot of concepts which most of the times has no relation what so ever with general electrical theories or working.This is one of them in my humble opinion.

 

[Vivek Batra]

An inverter adding noise to the system could be true.
I am not sure what is meant here by peak power delivery.I assume the system is grid connected.If that is the case ,the comment doesn't apply as it is no different than a normal supply. However if the system is off grid, then yes, this could be true depending on the size of the inverter/system. But then the inverter/system size should be well above the the audio load if it is meant to power the whole house .

This is greek to me. Sorry no knowledge on Solar vs Grid power suppply. Need to get my self updated on it.

 

[IndianEars]

My point is, even if it is Offgrid, the size of the inverter system will decide this.If it is sized properly , it is no different than grid supply.The rated power consumption of an electrical device is the maximum it is going to consume no matter what.So if the source,i.e Grid or any other similar off grid system, generator etc is sized to supply that, then it should be fine.My above comments are purely based on the working principle of an electrical equipment.The Audiophile world has a lot of concepts which most of the times has no relation what so ever with general electrical theories or working.This is one of them in my humble opinion.

Incidentally, I am an Electrical Engineer, with a Masters in Electronics. Hence I am pretty aware of "working principles."

As an Audiophile, I follow the principle that if seems technically OK but does not sound right, the technical understanding (or What Parameter you are looking at technically) is incomplete.

We don't know everything, and probably never will.

Sometimes, I prefer wearing a subjective hat.

That is why I said: YMMV

 

[Shinto]

Agreeing completely with the subjectivity side of things as Audiophile's including me unfortunately rely on in the end even if the technical understanding makes me think the other way.But out of curiosity, have you tested this.Have you powered your audio setup from an off grid system or a source other than grid and found it to be lacking dynamics.??Or in other words what made you make the comment. I am sure you might have had an experience of some sort.Please elaborate if you don't mind.

 

[bloredude]

The final room length/breadth will be reduced by almost 6 to 8 inches with brick cladding on all the walls. There is no option to change the entrancem though speakers can be placed along the left wall then the entrance will be behind the speakers

Yup! That will work equally well

I just want to touch upon the topic of the power source.

What you expect to gain by using locally produced electricity, may quickly diminish due to poor quality power storage / conversion.

Power utility lines, despite all the flaws (and I am talking about a typical metropolitan area, things could be different in less well-managed jurisdictions) the government supplied power lines are highly robust, and provide acceptably clean power. It will surely be a tall order to match that level of robustness in domestically generated power.

However, effort can be made to overcome the limitations. You will need to plan for overcapacity, and over-engineer your solar system. Some ideas for the same.

1. Install more number of panels (1.5x than the calculated value)
2. Install more number of batteries (2x than the calculated value)
3. Install a higher capacity inverter (3-4x or more the calculated value)
4. Install the highest quality inverter available

Most importantly, you will need a qualified engineer/architect with attention to detail and pursuit of perfection to execute the task. Despite all the expenses, if you get the job done by a contractor who employs bog standard laborer force, your expenditure on equipment may not translate into result 100%.

 

[IndianEars]

Agreeing completely with the subjectivity side of things as Audiophile's including me unfortunately rely on in the end even if the technical understanding makes me think the other way. But out of curiosity, have you tested this. Have you powered your audio setup from an off grid system or a source other than grid and found it to be lacking dynamics.??Or in other words what made you make the comment. I am sure you might have had an experience of some sort. Please elaborate if you don't mind.

Yes, some years ago, 3 persons in my group of (Indian) audiophile friends bought Power Regenerators from PURE POWER Canada.

The initial reaction was very positive... lower background noise and therefore easier to hear micro-transients and detail.

However, after about 3 months, one of them Switched back to a direct connection to the Mains supply (he was rearranging his rack) and he realised that the Power Regen was not allowing full expression of Macro Dynamics. The lower noise floor etc initially observed just did not seem to stand out as much on second listen...

He spoke about this on our group and went and visited again.... Result, all 3 Pure Power Regens were sold.

PS Audio also makes some elaborate (and hefty) Power Regens. You can set the power frequency, and even fluctuate the frequency a little... PS Audio says it helps demagnetize components in the chain. The Regen works as stated and there is an informative LCD display to show input and output parameters. Again some of us believe that Macro dynamics are curtailed. I do have a friend who continues to use his PS Audio.

Hence, YMMV



P.S: I must highlight that the Power ReGenerators from PURE POWER & PS Audio are full fledged Class AB amplifiers, that amplify a 50 Hz signal to the mains voltage, to feed Audio Equipment. They are Large & Heavy, and deliver amplifier like performance, in terms of low distortion and low noise. Like Class AB amplifiers, they are electrically in-efficient and generate a LOT of heat.

Power Inverters that generate a square wave (or a stepped sine wave) pale in comparison to the above mentioned Re generators.

Solar Panels will ALWAYS use square wave or pseudo sine wave conversion, to ensure high efficiency (ie to ensure that max possible solar power generated and stored in the batteries is converted into 240 Volts compatible electricity for home appliances). So no matter how over rated you select the Power Inverters, the quality of mains power generated will be shabby by audiophile standards..... Power Inverters are designed for high efficiency, not the cleanest power.

 

[Shinto]

Yes, some years ago, 3 persons in my group of (Indian) audiophile friends bought Power Regenerators from PURE POWER Canada.

The initial reaction was very positive... lower background noise and therefore easier to hear micro-transients and detail.

However, after about 3 months, one of them Switched back to a direct connection to the Mains supply (he was rearranging his rack) and he realised that the Power Regen was not allowing full expression of Macro Dynamics. The lower noise floor etc initially observed just did not seem to stand out as much on second listen...

He spoke about this on our group and went and visited again.... Result, all 3 Pure Power Regens were sold.

PS Audio also makes some elaborate (and hefty) Power Regens. You can set the power frequency, and even fluctuate the frequency a little... PS Audio says it helps demagnetize components in the chain. The Regen works as stated and there is an informative LCD display to show input and output parameters. Again some of us believe that Macro dynamics are curtailed. I do have a friend who continues to use his PS Audio.

Hence, YMMV



P.S: I must highlight that the Power ReGenerators from PURE POWER & PS Audio are full fledged Class AB amplifiers, that amplify a 50 Hz signal to the mains voltage, to feed Audio Equipment. They are Large & Heavy, and deliver amplifier like performance, in terms of low distortion and low noise. Like Class AB amplifiers, they are electrically in-efficient and generate a LOT of heat.

Power Inverters that generate a square wave (or a stepped sine wave) pale in comparison to the above mentioned Re generators.

Solar Panels will ALWAYS use square wave or pseudo sine wave conversion, to ensure high efficiency (ie to ensure that max possible solar power generated and stored in the batteries is converted into 240 Volts compatible electricity for home appliances). So no matter how over rated you select the Power Inverters, the quality of mains power generated will be shabby by audiophile standards..... Power Inverters are designed for high efficiency, not the cleanest power.

Thanks for the detailed explanation of your experience...My comments were based on the fact that a solar powered inverter system will be sized to take the entire house load,where audio load is only a small portion.In most cases it will be some thing like 3 or 5 kW system powering a 500 kW audio load.The source will comfortably do it. My house runs on a 5 kW grid connected solar .no batteries. That means all internal loads will be covered before it exports energy to grid.So most of the time (except when there is not enough daytime production and night), the house including the audio setup will be powered entirely by the solar.This is tracked ,so I know what is the load ,what is the production and what is exported.And I have heard no difference in my setup.But then the normal audiophile argument will be that my system is not resolving enough.We work in the renewable industry here ranging from kWs to many 10s of MW.And we do a lot of grid connection studies/simulation etc using sofisticated softwares and generally I can say it is no different from any other power source, once it is out of the transformer except for harmonic influence s it has on the grid.But this area is tightly regulated and inverters are required to comply with strict grid condition s including harmonic limits etc .

 

[Vivek Batra]

Hi Guys

An idea just popped in to my mind on the placement of the equipment in the room. I am thinking the following

There is a big sunken court yard (L: 20 feet x W: 6 feet x D: 5 feet) on the ground floor for the basement ventilation, eventually that will open in the music room.

Note: Not my home pics but will be exactly the same.

Ground Floor Rear Courtyard

Inside the music room



What I am thinking

I am planning to have a aprrox 2 Feet deep cavity, like cupboards in the rooms which can be around 4 feet wide and 3.5 feet in height. Almost like a cupboard below the sunken courtyard.

Idea is to have shelves in that cupboard to house all my equipment (Amplifier, laptop, streamer etc). All the sockets are also inside the cupboard with conduits for speaker cables. I can have a nice door for it as well. This way I can have a space for all the equipment which is not inside the room and all the walls are still clean and when not in use, fully covered and protected as well.

What say, does it make any sense?

Thanks.
Vivek

 

[SRI 420]

Hi Guys

An idea just popped in to my mind on the placement of the equipment in the room. I am thinking the following

There is a big sunken court yard (L: 20 feet x W: 6 feet x D: 5 feet) on the ground floor for the basement ventilation, eventually that will open in the music room.

Note: Not my home pics but will be exactly the same.

Ground Floor Rear Courtyard
View attachment 61616
Inside the music room

View attachment 61621

What I am thinking
View attachment 61622
I am planning to have a aprrox 2 Feet deep cavity, like cupboards in the rooms which can be around 4 feet wide and 3.5 feet in height. Almost like a cupboard below the sunken courtyard.

Idea is to have shelves in that cupboard to house all my equipment (Amplifier, laptop, streamer etc). All the sockets are also inside the cupboard with conduits for speaker cables. I can have a nice door for it as well. This way I can have a space for all the equipment which is not inside the room and all the walls are still clean and when not in use, fully covered and protected as well.

What say, does it make any sense?

Thanks.
Vivek

Looks like a good idea but won’t the equipment need air circulation to keep them cool, specially amps. Alternatively avoid doors to the shelves. Just my thoughts.

 

[Vivek Batra]

Looks like a good idea but won’t the equipment need air circulation to keep them cool, specially amps. Alternatively avoid doors to the shelves. Just my thoughts.

That's right, AC won't be ON all the time during the year.

 

[sud98]

Hi Guys

An idea just popped in to my mind on the placement of the equipment in the room. I am thinking the following

There is a big sunken court yard (L: 20 feet x W: 6 feet x D: 5 feet) on the ground floor for the basement ventilation, eventually that will open in the music room.

Note: Not my home pics but will be exactly the same.

Ground Floor Rear Courtyard
View attachment 61616
Inside the music room

View attachment 61621

What I am thinking
View attachment 61622
I am planning to have a aprrox 2 Feet deep cavity, like cupboards in the rooms which can be around 4 feet wide and 3.5 feet in height. Almost like a cupboard below the sunken courtyard.

Idea is to have shelves in that cupboard to house all my equipment (Amplifier, laptop, streamer etc). All the sockets are also inside the cupboard with conduits for speaker cables. I can have a nice door for it as well. This way I can have a space for all the equipment which is not inside the room and all the walls are still clean and when not in use, fully covered and protected as well.

What say, does it make any sense?

Thanks.
Vivek

I remember Sam9 building something similar. He put an exhaust in the equipment side so it's ventilated. Depending on your carpenter skills you can make the passage well hidden and can make it as a full size door. You can use an ir extender to make sure the remotes work.

 

[Yelamanchili manohar]

Hi Guys

An idea just popped in to my mind on the placement of the equipment in the room. I am thinking the following

There is a big sunken court yard (L: 20 feet x W: 6 feet x D: 5 feet) on the ground floor for the basement ventilation, eventually that will open in the music room.

Note: Not my home pics but will be exactly the same.

Ground Floor Rear Courtyard
View attachment 61616
Inside the music room

View attachment 61621

What I am thinking
View attachment 61622
I am planning to have a aprrox 2 Feet deep cavity, like cupboards in the rooms which can be around 4 feet wide and 3.5 feet in height. Almost like a cupboard below the sunken courtyard.

Idea is to have shelves in that cupboard to house all my equipment (Amplifier, laptop, streamer etc). All the sockets are also inside the cupboard with conduits for speaker cables. I can have a nice door for it as well. This way I can have a space for all the equipment which is not inside the room and all the walls are still clean and when not in use, fully covered and protected as well.

What say, does it make any sense?

Thanks.
Vivek

Iam not too sure it's a good idea. Ventilation is of course one issue which has already been mentioned above. Second will be ease of cabling at the back of the kit, which will become difficult. And 3rd will be that we usually out grow our pre-planned amount of kit. So usually open racks are a better idea, as they can be expanded upon. And besides I like looking at kit when it is playing.