Harbeth Compact 7 ES3 v/s ATC SCM 19

[panditji]

I am getting a demo pair of the Compact 7 ES3 for 1200 GBP which is the latest version beig the MK3.....I am also getting a brand new ATC SCM 19 for 1375 GBP....I love both the speakers but am inclined towards the Harbeths as I cannot change my amplifier now and Harbeths do not seem very fussy ..... However the ATC SCM 19 is also a superb speaker with fantastic bass although the Harbeths have a to die for mids.....
I do not know what to do and I need help from fellow members who have heard both.....

My musical preferences are Jazz, electronic ambient, 80s ...... I have heard both the speakers and can live with either.... Unfortunately I am not getting a VAT refund in the UK ....

Suggestions please.....

 

[avidyarthy]

Harbeths any day boss, then, Spendor and ProAc in that order.

 

[unleash_me]

....I love both the speakers but am inclined towards the Harbeths as I cannot change my amplifier now and Harbeths do not seem very fussy ..... However the ATC SCM 19 is also a superb speaker with fantastic bass although the Harbeths have a to die for mids.....

Get the Harbeth. I've listened to both and can confidently say that the kind of emotional reach Harbeth can provide is hard to find in other speakers. My current speakers are SHL5 and I'd been thorough many in the past including the likes of ProAc, Focal, Dali etc. None of them gave me the satisfaction I now get from my Harbeth.

I find them an all rounder even though they are famous for their excellent midrange. It's often proclaimed to be so good that the other qualities tend to be ignored! Plus they are the least fuzzy about power and match with a variety of multibranded components. Can't say the same about the ATCs. Don't get me wrong, the SCM19 is an awesome speaker on its own, but it needs to be driven hard to get the best out of them. It's a sad truth.

You are an experienced audiophile and am sure you had noticed the difference between these two! If it's a reassurance you are looking for, you have my complete vote of confidence for the Harbeth

Cheers.

 

[reignofchaos]

They are very different sounding speakers. Harbeths are typical british and romantic. ATCs are dead accurate. Choose whatever floats your boat. What is your amplifier?

 

[longshanks]

Haven't head that Harbeth so cant comment, having heard the ATC SCM 19 many times i can say it is an amazing speaker , great bass, great sound stage,Dynamics and the mids really depend upon the rest of the chain. it will show great difference when you swap other components, cables etc.ATC needs good power SCM 19 IMO needs 200 watts class AB or a 100 watt Class A amplifier to open up.

ATC SCM 19 combined with their SIA2-150 : Stereo Integrated Amplifier sounded very pleasing yet true to the source to me, this combo will satisfy most of the musical genres and wont need an upgrade for a long time.

ATC SCM 19 is the speaker i want to buy next , hopefully in 2011.

 

[arj]

it depends on how you like your presentation...they are two different speakers needing different amplification. I do not have any experience with these two specific speakers, but they have starkingly different House sounds

If you listen to Rock (and everything else) get the ATCs and give them a good amplification
..they need it
If you dont listen to rock and only everything else then you will just to fine with the Harbeths..they can do with most amplification

Harbeths makes the music warm and lush and really influence the music while the ATCs are much more revealing and transparent and only show you the music and electronics behind it.

Not sure of your amp...

 

[ajay124]

Does the GBP mean that you are sourcing them from U.K?
Because if they are available in India,then the best thing would be to audition them.Have not heard either of the two speakers but from what I have read about them on the net,both are excellent speakers and once you upgrade the source,amp,cables to the level of these speakers you'll be singing Body and Soul with Mr.Sinatra in person

 

[arj]

BTW..please speak to Dr bass. he has heard them both extensively.
I believe you get the best deals on harbeth in malaysia/SGP/HK

 

[Asit]

Hi,
I have heard the Harbeth Compact 7 ES3's (not sure if they were MK3s) driven by a Leben CS300XS EL-84 based tube amp with a NOS DAC plus Oppo as transport, at a home in Mumbai earlier this year. I carried my 10 odd CDs with which I generally audition. This audition lasted for about 2 hours, uninterrupted, without even anybody else most of the time in the room. It was quite a large room by the way, very uncommon by Bombay standards. Speakers were placed on ordinary stools.

It was a 'musical combination' in terms of harmonics. The music sounded very much in tune and was not imposing at all. One could listen to it for days on, I would guess, without having the feeling of being pounded in the ears. It was generally quite a pleasant experience.

However, compared with my system at home (which comprises of also a very similar Leben amp, specifically the Leben CS300 amp, but different much larger speakers at a much higher sensitivity level), the system at Bombay lacked several qualities. The soundstage and imaging was less impressive, and most importantly dynamics was much less in evidence. Everything was just a bit too sugar-coated for me, and a bit leaner and thinner than I'd have liked. Although I have to say, it's not an easy task to produce the body and still be clean and tonally correct for such small speakers.

I suppose it depends on your tastes and your amp. Although I have not looked up the sensitivity of this Harbeth recently, Harbeths typically have 86 db or so sensitivity. However, they are easier loads to drive than that number suggests. There is a lot of talk of a heavenly combination of a Leben and a Harbeth, but based on my lengthy audition in Bombay and my tastes, I cannot completely agree with that. I'd like a truer sound than I heard there.

I have not heard an ATC recently, definitely not the SCM 19. But generally they are a lot truer, but may need a bit of muscle to drive them though. Since I have no idea about your amp, I do not want to go too much into speculation.

All I can say is that these two speakers are as different as they come. There are takers for both, depending on their approach of listening to music. I have given my preference in the above, but in this case, it's your preference that is important. If you settle for the Harbeth because you feel your amp will not be able to drive the ATCs and you are not in a position to upgrade your amp, you still have to make sure you like that sound. Otherwise it will be a wrong decision. I would never buy speakers based on others' recommendations, although I have bought at different times over the last 25-30 years almost everything else based on 3rd party feedbacks. So please take our discussions only as a guide.

Regards.

 

[arj]

.. Everything was just a bit too sugar-coated for me, and a bit leaner and thinner than I'd have liked. Although I have to say, it's not an easy task to produce the body and still be clean and tonally correct for such small speakers...

this is what i have heard (2nd hand hence considered Hearsay). i would add the word Lazy as well....with some trepidation
it is a speaker which takes you several rows behind.. try to look up some reviews by Bob Neill on this. he has a play with words but found it quite apt (especially his description of the JMR twins which i owned for quite some time and still have a soft spot for )

a quote

Allan Shaw, Harbeth president & designer, tells us that polypropylene "eats detail," leaving behind a pleasant but slightly smeared presentation. Music coming from polypropylene cones can seem to lack character. Northern Ontario calls this charming little bit of euphony 'polypropylene bounce." Shaw designed a new material that he calls Radial that lets more detail through. To my ears, nothing pleasurable is lost with the move to Radial and a good deal is gained. Eventually, it will find its way into the entire Harbeth line I would guess.

 

[square_wave]

I guess all these are very dependent on the listener and their preferences. You just have to listen and see which camp you fall into.

I have seen hardcore defenders of both speakers! Mind you, these are folks who have the means to afford anything that they want.

The comparison is between apples and oranges here.

 

[arj]

This is a nice discussion going on on Harbeths..
I heard some Harbeths (but my review is very very long...) - pink fish media

 

[panditji]

Does the GBP mean that you are sourcing them from U.K?
Because if they are available in India,then the best thing would be to audition them.Have not heard either of the two speakers but from what I have read about them on the net,both are excellent speakers and once you upgrade the source,amp,cables to the level of these speakers you'll be singing Body and Soul with Mr.Sinatra in person

Yes I would be sourcing them from the UK. The harbeth I am getting a demo pair from the authorised dealer and the ATC are brand new from the dealer there.
I have listened to both in Hongkong and the prices there are almost the same as in the Uk since they are made there. I have been searching all 3 forums - Echoloft (Singapore), Review33 (HK) and hifi4sale (malaysia) and the used pairs are :
1) very rare to find
2) Cost more than the price i am getting
3) the harbeth is a dealer demo and is the latest model - mk3 whereas on the forums i get 3-6 year old speakers at probably the same price I am currently getting.

Dr. bass advised me to look for them in Malaysia but the dealer there sells out everything.

I currently have a Rotel RA 1070 integrated 100 W amplifier and would not be in any position to change it in the next 2 years atleast. So with the current chain that I have - NAD 521 BEE, Rotel amp and ordinary cables, I am inclined towards the harbeth. I really liked the ATCs sound as well but with my choice of music i think I can easily live with the harbeths.
As Dr. Bass said, the ATCs require very good amplification which i cannot give them at the moment.

 

[avidyarthy]

Great price .... @ almost 50% off for the demo pieces.

You don't even have to wait for the 200 hr break-in required for these beauties. Just pray they are transported safely to you.

 

[panditji]

Hi,
I have heard the Harbeth Compact 7 ES3's (not sure if they were MK3s) driven by a Leben CS300XS EL-84 based tube amp with a NOS DAC plus Oppo as transport, at a home in Mumbai earlier this year. I carried my 10 odd CDs with which I generally audition. This audition lasted for about 2 hours, uninterrupted, without even anybody else most of the time in the room. It was quite a large room by the way, very uncommon by Bombay standards. Speakers were placed on ordinary stools.

It was a 'musical combination' in terms of harmonics. The music sounded very much in tune and was not imposing at all. One could listen to it for days on, I would guess, without having the feeling of being pounded in the ears. It was generally quite a pleasant experience.

However, compared with my system at home (which comprises of also a very similar Leben amp, specifically the Leben CS300 amp, but different much larger speakers at a much higher sensitivity level), the system at Bombay lacked several qualities. The soundstage and imaging was less impressive, and most importantly dynamics was much less in evidence. Everything was just a bit too sugar-coated for me, and a bit leaner and thinner than I'd have liked. Although I have to say, it's not an easy task to produce the body and still be clean and tonally correct for such small speakers.

I suppose it depends on your tastes and your amp. Although I have not looked up the sensitivity of this Harbeth recently, Harbeths typically have 86 db or so sensitivity. However, they are easier loads to drive than that number suggests. There is a lot of talk of a heavenly combination of a Leben and a Harbeth, but based on my lengthy audition in Bombay and my tastes, I cannot completely agree with that. I'd like a truer sound than I heard there.

I have not heard an ATC recently, definitely not the SCM 19. But generally they are a lot truer, but may need a bit of muscle to drive them though. Since I have no idea about your amp, I do not want to go too much into speculation.

All I can say is that these two speakers are as different as they come. There are takers for both, depending on their approach of listening to music. I have given my preference in the above, but in this case, it's your preference that is important. If you settle for the Harbeth because you feel your amp will not be able to drive the ATCs and you are not in a position to upgrade your amp, you still have to make sure you like that sound. Otherwise it will be a wrong decision. I would never buy speakers based on others' recommendations, although I have bought at different times over the last 25-30 years almost everything else based on 3rd party feedbacks. So please take our discussions only as a guide.

Regards.

Thanks for your detailed feedback Asit....I heard the Harbeths with a regular marantz amp and it sounded different than all the speakers I had ever heard. I like the sound coming out of the speakers and am not bothered by the soundstage and imaging at all ..have never really reviewed those parameters....
My only concern with the harbeths is how good of an all rounder are they.... the kind of music i like i am sure the harbeths will do extremely well....I do realise that the ATCs are a better all rounder but if someone says that the harbeths are good all rounders then I would blindly go for those....That is the only concern I have as i was not able to audition the harbeths with different music....
Also maybe solid state sounds better than tubes as 86 DB is still not sufficient to be used with tubes I am guessing...

 

[Dr.Bass]

WOW Unbelieveable !!! How can someone ask the EXACT same question that I had in my mind a year and half back . These are the threads I had started on Audioasylum at that time. Please read them, they will confuse you but also clarify a lot of things.

Standmount speakers with a high degree of transparency and neutrality - Plinius_Fan - Speaker Asylum

Harbeth Compact 7es3 Vs Focus Audio FS688/788 - Plinius_Fan - Speaker Asylum

So it has boiled down to Harbeth Compact 7es3 Vs SHL5 - Plinius_Fan - Speaker Asylum


Coming over to my assessment of both the speakers, let me start by saying that I had almost decided to get the Harbeth Compact 7es3. I had lined up an audition for the speaker in Mumbai (I think the same gentleman whose system Asit has referred to) but since Harbeth had to be bought from either Singapore or Malaysia, I finally decided to visit Spore and listen to all the models of Harbeth and some other speakers as well.

I did listen to the Harbeth extensively for about half a day. I would NOT call them romantic. IMO romantic means over saturated colors/tones, truer than life harmonics (again rich and over saturated), flowery and bloomy. Harbeth had none of these qualities. Yes they had some think sounding mid bass and sugar coated tones but they sounded analytical to me. By analytical I mean I just could not forget the speaker and listen to music. Al throughout I was kind of analysing the sound because I was worried it didnt sound right. Lots of artificiality especially in the tones, as if someone has "cooked" it but not finished it well. The drivers did not integrate, I was able to listen to the tweeters separately (I dont know if it was the distance I was sitting at, 7ft).
Moreover the speakers were trying to present a lot of detail without presenting them as a "whole" but rather as bits (again making me analyze).
Transparency was average, I could not see much deeper into the stage. Imaging was again average. Dynamics was clearly lacking, it never presented the contrasts in music the way it should, sounded somewhat "same" all throughout. Neutrality is questionable because I heard them with three different amps costing between INR 40k to INR 300k and the sound signature changed very little. Yes there was some change but as much as an interconnect change not what one would expect from an amplification change from Rega Brio to Senders Pre-Power.
Compared to the Harbeth the Spendors were much more enjoyble. I listened to all the models of Spendor and liked their Floorstanders a lot. They were truly "Romantic". Sounded smooth, detailed, more neutral than Harbeth yet romantic and lush. I would any day suggest a Spendor over Harbeth.
Proac again is very nice if you can get to their response series. They are also smooth and romantic but a lot more dynamic and neutral. If you could get a Response D15 you would love it.

ATC, well I own it (not the SCM19 but the 40). They are true sounding speakers. They are not the typical analytical bunch which tries to spit out all the garbage in the name of details. They tell you what is good as well as what is bad in a recording in the right ratio, so you can enjoy Kishore Da, RD and Rafi as well as Mozart and Beethoven..as long as the CD has a listenable music in it. Many of my CD collection is 6/10 in recording quality but I have never enjoyed them so well before arrival of ATC. They are accurate in the right sense. But I would urge you to listen to them.

I am astonished with two speakers you have shortlisted, if I have to guess I would say you have not heard both these speakers, because I cannot imagine someone to like both these speakers, they are so different. If at all you have to take a decision between these two only I STRONGLY suggest you listen to them before buying.

Another speaker which will satisfy your requirement is the Focus Audio FS688 and 788. It is more detailed than a Proac but equally lush sounding and very well built. They use extremely high quality components. I have listened to them along side ATC in Spore, while they were not as neutral as ATC they are superbly enjoyble.

 

[panditji]

Great price .... @ almost 50% off for the demo pieces.

You don't even have to wait for the 200 hr break-in required for these beauties. Just pray they are transported safely to you.

Absolutely....i i was able to get a VAT refund, they would have been a steal at 50% off....Even now, they are a good deal considering they are the latest model...

 

[Dr.Bass]

Just an addition:
ATC prices have been slashed in India. Today morning I got a call from Audio Planet (the dealer of ATC in Bangalore) and here are the new prices:

SCM7 : 60k
SCM11: 95k
SCM19 : 140k
SCM40 : 220k

That is really close to the international prices. Good move finally.

 

[panditji]

WOW Unbelieveable !!! How can someone ask the EXACT same question that I had in my mind a year and half back . These are the threads I had started on Audioasylum at that time. Please read them, they will confuse you but also clarify a lot of things.

Standmount speakers with a high degree of transparency and neutrality - Plinius_Fan - Speaker Asylum

Harbeth Compact 7es3 Vs Focus Audio FS688/788 - Plinius_Fan - Speaker Asylum

So it has boiled down to Harbeth Compact 7es3 Vs SHL5 - Plinius_Fan - Speaker Asylum


Coming over to my assessment of both the speakers, let me start by saying that I had almost decided to get the Harbeth Compact 7es3. I had lined up an audition for the speaker in Mumbai (I think the same gentleman whose system Asit has referred to) but since Harbeth had to be bought from either Singapore or Malaysia, I finally decided to visit Spore and listen to all the models of Harbeth and some other speakers as well.

I did listen to the Harbeth extensively for about half a day. I would NOT call them romantic. IMO romantic means over saturated colors/tones, truer than life harmonics (again rich and over saturated), flowery and bloomy. Harbeth had none of these qualities. Yes they had some think sounding mid bass and sugar coated tones but they sounded analytical to me. By analytical I mean I just could not forget the speaker and listen to music. Al throughout I was kind of analysing the sound because I was worried it didnt sound right. Lots of artificiality especially in the tones, as if someone has "cooked" it but not finished it well. The drivers did not integrate, I was able to listen to the tweeters separately (I dont know if it was the distance I was sitting at, 7ft).
Moreover the speakers were trying to present a lot of detail without presenting them as a "whole" but rather as bits (again making me analyze).
Transparency was average, I could not see much deeper into the stage. Imaging was again average. Dynamics was clearly lacking, it never presented the contrasts in music the way it should, sounded somewhat "same" all throughout. Neutrality is questionable because I heard them with three different amps costing between INR 40k to INR 300k and the sound signature changed very little. Yes there was some change but as much as an interconnect change not what one would expect from an amplification change from Rega Brio to Senders Pre-Power.
Compared to the Harbeth the Spendors were much more enjoyble. I listened to all the models of Spendor and liked their Floorstanders a lot. They were truly "Romantic". Sounded smooth, detailed, more neutral than Harbeth yet romantic and lush. I would any day suggest a Spendor over Harbeth.
Proac again is very nice if you can get to their response series. They are also smooth and romantic but a lot more dynamic and neutral. If you could get a Response D15 you would love it.

ATC, well I own it (not the SCM19 but the 40). They are true sounding speakers. They are not the typical analytical bunch which tries to spit out all the garbage in the name of details. They tell you what is good as well as what is bad in a recording in the right ratio, so you can enjoy Kishore Da, RD and Rafi as well as Mozart and Beethoven..as long as the CD has a listenable music in it. Many of my CD collection is 6/10 in recording quality but I have never enjoyed them so well before arrival of ATC. They are accurate in the right sense. But I would urge you to listen to them.

I am astonished with two speakers you have shortlisted, if I have to guess I would say you have not heard both these speakers, because I cannot imagine someone to like both these speakers, they are so different. If at all you have to take a decision between these two only I STRONGLY suggest you listen to them before buying.

Another speaker which will satisfy your requirement is the Focus Audio FS688 and 788. It is more detailed than a Proac but equally lush sounding and very well built. They use extremely high quality components. I have listened to them along side ATC in Spore, while they were not as neutral as ATC they are superbly enjoyble.

Thanks Dr. Bass for a detailed review.... obviously since you have heard both Spendors and Harbeths and own the ATCs I value your opinion more than the others....
I do agree that both the speakers are very different sounding but I liked both very much. I heard the ATCs with a Plinius 9200 in HK and the Harbeths with a regular marantz amplifier. Before listening to both, I heard the Spendors (SP100, A5, A6) with Accuphase equipment and made up my mind to go with the A5....however the next day I heard the ATCs and then decided to go with either the SCM 11s or 19...the next day heard the Harbeths and the sound was totally different but in a natural way with absolutely no fatigue to the ears at all....
My dilemna can be compared to person liking a Porsche, Ferrari and a Lamborghini but stays in Chandni Chowk and cannot move to Aurangzeb road to enjoy the supercars anytime soon.....

One question though: Have you tried listening to your ATCs with an average amplifier and if yes, how much of a difference did you feel in the sound? Do you think i could drive the ATCs with a Rotel inegrated amp for the next 2 years till the time i can upgrade to a better amp?

 

[panditji]

Just an addition:
ATC prices have been slashed in India. Today morning I got a call from Audio Planet (the dealer of ATC in Bangalore) and here are the new prices:

SCM7 : 60k
SCM11: 95k
SCM19 : 140k
SCM40 : 220k

That is really close to the international prices. Good move finally.

That is nice as 3 months ago, i got a quote of 160k for the scm 19....However at 1375 GBP with hopefully no duty they would come for under 1 lakh at current conversion rates...