Re: ? Is CD Player really make difference over DVD Player for Stereo Listening?? nvas
CD transports | codebunny.org
CD transports | codebunny.org
Is A CD Player Really Better Than A DVDP For Stereo Music?
- Thread starter nvashi
- Start date
bournurplusher
Member
Re: ? Is CD Player really make difference over DVD Player for Stereo Listening?? nvas
i have oppo 93 bluray player.its play SACD & DVD-Audio too.but im not satisfactory on my b&w mt25 speakers sound.its just satelite speaker. any front hight speaker(wharfedale 10.1) improve my sound quality?or buy a seperate cd player only solution?
i have oppo 93 bluray player.its play SACD & DVD-Audio too.but im not satisfactory on my b&w mt25 speakers sound.its just satelite speaker. any front hight speaker(wharfedale 10.1) improve my sound quality?or buy a seperate cd player only solution?
sud98
Well-Known Member
Re: ? Is CD Player really make difference over DVD Player for Stereo Listening?? nvas
You could have upgraded to the BDP 95 for high quality player.
But in your case the speakers appear to be the weak link, upgrade to speakers based on what sounds good to your ears in your budget, there is a large variety to audition, be patient and listen to what you like and then invest.
You could have upgraded to the BDP 95 for high quality player.
But in your case the speakers appear to be the weak link, upgrade to speakers based on what sounds good to your ears in your budget, there is a large variety to audition, be patient and listen to what you like and then invest.
rupy
Active Member
Re: ? Is CD Player really make difference over DVD Player for Stereo Listening?? nvas
A DVD player is generally used alongwith a AVR,and is connected to it via a digital output.In a HT set-up,it is the AVR which doing the D to A conversion.The audio outputs are a secondary option by the manufacturer and thus is given less attention.
Whereas a CD player is a player with a dedicated audio output to be connected to a stereo amp which does not have a provision of D to A conversion.Thus here the primary job of the player is what the secondary job of the DVD player is.Yes in high end CD players you do have a digital output,in case you want to add a better D to A converter.A good CD player is definetely better than a DVD player.
All the best.
Hi!,
A DVD player is generally used alongwith a AVR,and is connected to it via a digital output.In a HT set-up,it is the AVR which doing the D to A conversion.The audio outputs are a secondary option by the manufacturer and thus is given less attention.
Whereas a CD player is a player with a dedicated audio output to be connected to a stereo amp which does not have a provision of D to A conversion.Thus here the primary job of the player is what the secondary job of the DVD player is.Yes in high end CD players you do have a digital output,in case you want to add a better D to A converter.A good CD player is definetely better than a DVD player.
All the best.
sonosphere
Well-Known Member
Re: ? Is CD Player really make difference over DVD Player for Stereo Listening?? nvas
Hi,
I've read someone's post* on another forum stating to effect that (my words):
A DVDP doesn't output "original PCM data" of an audio CD thru it's digital coax, rather it compresses it, thereby reducing it's SQ. And even if you feed this compressed PCM output to a high-end DAC, the result is not any better the the audio-out of the DVDP itself!
*(Pls PM me if you need the link to above. I am not sure if forum rules allow posting another forum's link here)
Maybe the reason for tinny sound (in quote below) is not that the DVDP transport is not reading all the bits on Audio CD properly. It may be because of the "compressed PCM" output.
I find this "compressed PCM" theory a bit un-believeable, since most people take the digital coax out from their 'mass market" DVDP and feed to an AVR and presumably get better sound thru the AVR's DAC. However just to be sure, I request experienced HFVians to convey whether this "compressed PCM" theory is correct?
(I've just put my DAC plans on hold, after I read this theory... since I planned to use my DVDP as Audio CD transport. What's the use if the output of DAC doesnt sound better than DVDP!)
Thanks in advance,
Sonosphere
Hi,
I've read someone's post* on another forum stating to effect that (my words):
A DVDP doesn't output "original PCM data" of an audio CD thru it's digital coax, rather it compresses it, thereby reducing it's SQ. And even if you feed this compressed PCM output to a high-end DAC, the result is not any better the the audio-out of the DVDP itself!
*(Pls PM me if you need the link to above. I am not sure if forum rules allow posting another forum's link here)
Maybe the reason for tinny sound (in quote below) is not that the DVDP transport is not reading all the bits on Audio CD properly. It may be because of the "compressed PCM" output.
I find this "compressed PCM" theory a bit un-believeable, since most people take the digital coax out from their 'mass market" DVDP and feed to an AVR and presumably get better sound thru the AVR's DAC. However just to be sure, I request experienced HFVians to convey whether this "compressed PCM" theory is correct?
(I've just put my DAC plans on hold, after I read this theory... since I planned to use my DVDP as Audio CD transport. What's the use if the output of DAC doesnt sound better than DVDP!)
Thanks in advance,
Sonosphere
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Re: ? Is CD Player really make difference over DVD Player for Stereo Listening?? nvas
Somehow missed this post. We've done a side by side comparison here
Members were blindfolded so that they won't know what is the source. Of course, when LP was played, it was more discernible due to the pop & click noises but others were only discernible by the SQ.
This calls for an audio test!! front line CD player with a main stream DVD player? Any body up for it? because i dont have a Dedicated CD player?
Somehow missed this post. We've done a side by side comparison here
Members were blindfolded so that they won't know what is the source. Of course, when LP was played, it was more discernible due to the pop & click noises but others were only discernible by the SQ.
Re: ? Is CD Player really make difference over DVD Player for Stereo Listening?? nvas
PCM, or Pulse Code Modulation, is a digital representation of an analogue signal. In other words, if you ask a DVD/BD player to output PCM, it first converts digital signal to analogue, samples it, and then reconverts it to to digital at the sample rate you specify. For this, the player uses it's internal ADC and DAC processors.
This should be done with players where the quality of internal processors are high. When you are not sure about that, it is best to 'bitstream' the digital data in it's original form. When you do this, the player will just read the data, maintain it's digital form, and stream the data in raw form to the AVR or amplifier. The digital to analogue conversion will then be done by the DAc of the AVR/ amplifier.
Most good DVD players have the option of sending digital data as PCM or raw bitstream. On Saturday, I had used this option with the Pioneer DV-220-VK. Using an external rDAC from Arcam, the Pioneer did act as a reasonable transport with the rDAC doing all the conversion. I have tried this with the Oppo BD93 also, though I did not use the PCM option in BD93. I just compared the analogue out of the Oppo with the DAC conversion of the rDAC. The rDAC was far better than the Oppo.
Cheers
Hi, I've read someone's post* on another forum stating to effect that (my words):
A DVDP doesn't output "original PCM data" of an audio CD thru it's digital coax, rather it compresses it, thereby reducing it's SQ. And even if you feed this compressed PCM output to a high-end DAC, the result is not any better the the audio-out of the DVDP itself!
PCM, or Pulse Code Modulation, is a digital representation of an analogue signal. In other words, if you ask a DVD/BD player to output PCM, it first converts digital signal to analogue, samples it, and then reconverts it to to digital at the sample rate you specify. For this, the player uses it's internal ADC and DAC processors.
This should be done with players where the quality of internal processors are high. When you are not sure about that, it is best to 'bitstream' the digital data in it's original form. When you do this, the player will just read the data, maintain it's digital form, and stream the data in raw form to the AVR or amplifier. The digital to analogue conversion will then be done by the DAc of the AVR/ amplifier.
Most good DVD players have the option of sending digital data as PCM or raw bitstream. On Saturday, I had used this option with the Pioneer DV-220-VK. Using an external rDAC from Arcam, the Pioneer did act as a reasonable transport with the rDAC doing all the conversion. I have tried this with the Oppo BD93 also, though I did not use the PCM option in BD93. I just compared the analogue out of the Oppo with the DAC conversion of the rDAC. The rDAC was far better than the Oppo.
Cheers
spirovious
Well-Known Member
Re: ? Is CD Player really make difference over DVD Player for Stereo Listening?? nvas
With new technique(DPCM) ,can it be done in the digital domain?
Pulse-code modulation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
With new technique(DPCM) ,can it be done in the digital domain?
Pulse-code modulation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Re: ? Is CD Player really make difference over DVD Player for Stereo Listening?? nvas
PCM comes after the analogue signals have been converted to digital form. So whatever you do then, you have to go through the the conversion process.
As I said, PCM is a digital representation of analogue data. Why would you want a digital representation of digital data? You may as well send it as is.
In any case all this will not be used much in AV systems in future. The storage capacity as well as transmission widths (read HDMI) have become broad enough to carry digital data is it's raw form in upto 8 channels as of now. There is no need for PCM at all. If at all, PCM will be used in other forms of communication such as telephony, video conferencing, mobile telephony etc. In AV, if at all you use PCM, today, you can send PCM at full 192kHz sampling rates. There will be no compression.
Cheers
PCM comes after the analogue signals have been converted to digital form. So whatever you do then, you have to go through the the conversion process.
As I said, PCM is a digital representation of analogue data. Why would you want a digital representation of digital data? You may as well send it as is.
In any case all this will not be used much in AV systems in future. The storage capacity as well as transmission widths (read HDMI) have become broad enough to carry digital data is it's raw form in upto 8 channels as of now. There is no need for PCM at all. If at all, PCM will be used in other forms of communication such as telephony, video conferencing, mobile telephony etc. In AV, if at all you use PCM, today, you can send PCM at full 192kHz sampling rates. There will be no compression.
Cheers
sonosphere
Well-Known Member
Re: ? Is CD Player really make difference over DVD Player for Stereo Listening?? nvas
Dear Venkatcr,
In above example I assume that to act as transport, the Pioneer was set to bitstream mode (thus bypassing Pioneer's internal ADC-DAC), whereas the rDAC recieved the bitstream and rDAC's DAC converted the bitstream to analog. ....Please correct me if my assumption is wrong.
Thanks,
Sonosphere
Dear Venkatcr,
In above example I assume that to act as transport, the Pioneer was set to bitstream mode (thus bypassing Pioneer's internal ADC-DAC), whereas the rDAC recieved the bitstream and rDAC's DAC converted the bitstream to analog. ....Please correct me if my assumption is wrong.
Thanks,
Sonosphere
spirovious
Well-Known Member
Re: ? Is CD Player really make difference over DVD Player for Stereo Listening?? nvas
Adding to this,is Raw form accepted by DAC?
Adding to this,is Raw form accepted by DAC?
sud98
Well-Known Member
Re: ? Is CD Player really make difference over DVD Player for Stereo Listening?? nvas
I am getting a bit confused here, so sorry if I am going OT. I thought the difference between bitstream and PCM was that in bitstream you send the audio signals without using the decoder of the source, whereas in PCM the source has decoded the signals and sending it as a PCM. Both I am presuming in this case are sending it in digital form.
I am getting a bit confused here, so sorry if I am going OT. I thought the difference between bitstream and PCM was that in bitstream you send the audio signals without using the decoder of the source, whereas in PCM the source has decoded the signals and sending it as a PCM. Both I am presuming in this case are sending it in digital form.
no1lives4ever
Active Member
Re: ? Is CD Player really make difference over DVD Player for Stereo Listening?? nvas
I have never seen a DVD player outputing audio cd data over spdif interfaces using any type of reconversion, etc.
The problem with DVD players is that they use a laser with a smaller wavelength than that of cd only players. This sometimes causes read errors from the CDs, resulting in the player firmware applying interpolation. This can lead to inferior audio quality.
The above would mostly apply to the real cheap dvd players. Any decent DVD player from a reputable manufacturer would not be much different from a dedicated cd transport.
If you are not using the player's internal DACs, like if you have a external DAC or if you are sending digital data to a AVR, then consider the option of ditching your CD transport completely and using lossless compression codecs like flac with a media player that can output in digital format. Rip the CDs using EAC on a computer and then play either the wav files or the flac files using the external. This will in general give you the best possible quality and will also prevent your CDs from getting scratched, etc. I have used this method to "restore" a few badly scratched CDs that would not play properly on some cd players.
-- no1lives4ever
I have never seen a DVD player outputing audio cd data over spdif interfaces using any type of reconversion, etc.
The problem with DVD players is that they use a laser with a smaller wavelength than that of cd only players. This sometimes causes read errors from the CDs, resulting in the player firmware applying interpolation. This can lead to inferior audio quality.
The above would mostly apply to the real cheap dvd players. Any decent DVD player from a reputable manufacturer would not be much different from a dedicated cd transport.
If you are not using the player's internal DACs, like if you have a external DAC or if you are sending digital data to a AVR, then consider the option of ditching your CD transport completely and using lossless compression codecs like flac with a media player that can output in digital format. Rip the CDs using EAC on a computer and then play either the wav files or the flac files using the external. This will in general give you the best possible quality and will also prevent your CDs from getting scratched, etc. I have used this method to "restore" a few badly scratched CDs that would not play properly on some cd players.
-- no1lives4ever
Re: ? Is CD Player really make difference over DVD Player for Stereo Listening?? nvas
That is correct. What is the confusion?
Cheers
That is correct. What is the confusion?
Cheers
Re: ? Is CD Player really make difference over DVD Player for Stereo Listening?? nvas
This is interesting. Do they do that to video too ? Won't this interpolation technique go wrong even once and show up as visible dots on the screen ?
I agree with your theory. In my line of work of business data mining, empty data points are filled using statistical techniques.
This is interesting. Do they do that to video too ? Won't this interpolation technique go wrong even once and show up as visible dots on the screen ?
I agree with your theory. In my line of work of business data mining, empty data points are filled using statistical techniques.
no1lives4ever
Active Member
Re: ? Is CD Player really make difference over DVD Player for Stereo Listening?? nvas
Audio CDs do not use a very robust error correction scheme. The same is the case with VCDs and the missing data is very easily visible on VCDs. Data CDs have much better quality error correction schemes.
Now DVDs use different error correction schemes from Audio CDs, but with DVDs on a standalone player, mostly there is no interpolation done and you do notice video drop outs on DVDs discs which are badly scratches.
Most computers will freeze when you play a DVD or a VCD with unreadable data.
-- no1lives4ever
Audio CDs do not use a very robust error correction scheme. The same is the case with VCDs and the missing data is very easily visible on VCDs. Data CDs have much better quality error correction schemes.
Now DVDs use different error correction schemes from Audio CDs, but with DVDs on a standalone player, mostly there is no interpolation done and you do notice video drop outs on DVDs discs which are badly scratches.
Most computers will freeze when you play a DVD or a VCD with unreadable data.
-- no1lives4ever
sud98
Well-Known Member
Re: ? Is CD Player really make difference over DVD Player for Stereo Listening?? nvas
So the difference between sending your bitstream output to the rDac versus the LPCM may not necessarily be the fact that for LPCM one needs to do ADC and DAC in the source but with the quality of the decoders in the two systems.
So the difference between sending your bitstream output to the rDac versus the LPCM may not necessarily be the fact that for LPCM one needs to do ADC and DAC in the source but with the quality of the decoders in the two systems.
Re: ? Is CD Player really make difference over DVD Player for Stereo Listening?? nvas
The DAC always matters. Though we always say that the closer the processing is to the source, the better it is, it all boils down to cost. As long as a source can pick up the data well and transmit it without errors and untouched, a good external DAC will decode well.
You can clearly hear the difference even with something as good as the Oppo BD93 provided you use a good external DAC.
Cheers
The DAC always matters. Though we always say that the closer the processing is to the source, the better it is, it all boils down to cost. As long as a source can pick up the data well and transmit it without errors and untouched, a good external DAC will decode well.
You can clearly hear the difference even with something as good as the Oppo BD93 provided you use a good external DAC.
Cheers
shershah
New Member
Re: ? Is CD Player really make difference over DVD Player for Stereo Listening?? nvas
you must mean -
"something as bad as the oppo bd93"?
you must mean -
"something as bad as the oppo bd93"?
Re: ? Is CD Player really make difference over DVD Player for Stereo Listening?? nvas
No, I meant what I said. The Oppo BD93 is a player par excellence, and Oppo has built special circuitry in it for audio.
Cheers
No, I meant what I said. The Oppo BD93 is a player par excellence, and Oppo has built special circuitry in it for audio.
Cheers
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