Modern 15inch drivers vs Altecs & Tannoys

[reubensm]

While looking up some designs for Altec Onkens, I came across this Altec and JBL treasure trove. Many of you may have already seen it but thought I'll put these down for the benefit of those who haven't yet.

the site:

LIBRARY

amazing viewing:

LIBRARY SITE MAP

 

[AVM]

Came across this company that uses vintage Altecs/JBL. Read in one of the reviews - they are an intrepreataion of Altec-Lansings Voice of the Theater speakers
Burwell and Sons Loudspeakers

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Looks expensive!

 

[reubensm]

I have shortlisted the Altec Onken design but want to use it with 12 inch high efficiency full rangers. Firstly, is this a good idea and secondly, does anyone have an idea on what would be the changes required, to the dimensions (or could I just build the onken baffles for the 15inch Altecs and just drop the 12 inch full rangers on instead)?

here's the design:

 

[rajagopal_j]

I have shortlisted the Altec Onken design but want to use it with 12 inch high efficiency full rangers. Firstly, is this a good idea and secondly, does anyone have an idea on what would be the changes required, to the dimensions (or could I just build the onken baffles for the 15inch Altecs and just drop the 12 inch full rangers on instead)?

Whether it is a good idea will depend on your driver. Can't help unless you tell us what driver you are using. Usually driver manufacturers have suggestions on the speaker box design which bring out the best in their drivers. There are many proven designs for any given driver. I would suggest you stick to that. The onkens were specifically designed for the Jensen/JBL/Altec 15" drivers, hence those perform the best in that design usually.

As for changes to be made, if you know the thiele small params for the driver then use mh-audio.nl - Home or any other onken calculator available on the internet to calculate the inner volume and vent volume. You can arrive at the dimensions at your convenience making sure you keep the inner volume and vent volume as calculated.

 

[reubensm]

Whether it is a good idea will depend on your driver. Can't help unless you tell us what driver you are using.

for fullrangers, planning to use the Philips 12100/m8, if using dedicated woofers, planning to use the Altec 416A or JBL D130 or JBL K140 or Seeburg 15 inchers

 

[manoj.p]

The below post may flame some war, but I just want to point out something.

The vintage drivers like Tannoy and Altec's were designed in the era where the push was on to systems that sounded warm. The whole analog stage was designed with rolled off highs. The tube and class A amps again had the rolled off high frequencies. So, if one is used to that and prefers that sound, the vintage drivers will work very fine and give lots of enjoyment. However, for someone not aware of this, it can come as a shock to listen to a design which is not so great at doing high frequencies and may sound unclear.

Having said that, I do not have a first hand experience with vintage altecs or tannoys. But I did read lots of user impressions of those when I was looking for studio monitors. The main contenders for me were JBL 43xx and JBL 44xx series. Both were highly regarded. The 43xx series was designed to sound more like vintage monitors of JBL and Altec, with the mid-bass hump. Although this made the 43xx series bit in-accurate, it was still very popular. This prompted me to read more about the vintage altecs. Then I came across a post of big fan of Altec 604 when he listened the JBL 4410 series speakers. It's an interesting read.
JBL 4410 vs Altec 604

As said above, I dont have a first hand experience with Altecs. But just wanted to bring another viewpoint. If one knows what to expect, there won't be any heartburn or disappointment.

 

[arj]

The below post may flame some war, but I just want to point out something.

The vintage drivers like Tannoy and Altec's were designed in the era where the push was on to systems that sounded warm. The whole analog stage was designed with rolled off highs. The tube and class A amps again had the rolled off high frequencies. So, if one is used to that and prefers that sound, the vintage drivers will work very fine and give lots of enjoyment. However, for someone not aware of this, it can come as a shock to listen to a design which is not so great at doing high frequencies and may sound unclear.

Having said that, I do not have a first hand experience with vintage altecs or tannoys. But I did read lots of user impressions of those when I was looking for studio monitors. The main contenders for me were JBL 43xx and JBL 44xx series. Both were highly regarded. The 43xx series was designed to sound more like vintage monitors of JBL and Altec, with the mid-bass hump. Although this made the 43xx series bit in-accurate, it was still very popular. This prompted me to read more about the vintage altecs. Then I came across a post of big fan of Altec 604 when he listened the JBL 4410 series speakers. It's an interesting read.
JBL 4410 vs Altec 604

As said above, I dont have a first hand experience with Altecs. But just wanted to bring another viewpoint. If one knows what to expect, there won't be any heartburn or disappointment.

Nice post. you are right on rolled off highs on these but on the flip side you do gain on coherency/point source with these speakers which is pretty difficult to achieve with multi dirviers as that coherent point is pretty Narrow.

But considering that most people over 35 start hearing only 18 khz and below for most folks this roll off may not be that bad practically
here is a site to test it on a less serious note( try using a good setup as regular computer speakers/headphones may naturally limit this sound)
Gamquistu - The Hearing Age Evaluator

 

[manoj.p]

I think 18 Khz is too pushing, most people can't hear well above 16KHz.

Anyway, the vintage drivers start the rolloff quite early, around 10KHz or so. Moreover, the drivers were overdamped, quite suitable for tube amps but not so with solid state amps. If one wants to use these drivers, its better to think everything as one system and go with tube amps and even the music from pre-1990 or so. The modern music would be found lacking on this kind of setup and lose brightness. Some may even end up liking it.

As for point source nature of the co-axial drivers, its irrespective of altec/vintage. If one goes with modern co-axial designs, then the same benefit is there.

 

[arj]

I think 18 Khz is too pushing, most people can't hear well above 16KHz.

Anyway, the vintage drivers start the rolloff quite early, around 10KHz or so. Moreover, the drivers were overdamped, quite suitable for tube amps but not so with solid state amps. If one wants to use these drivers, its better to think everything as one system and go with tube amps and even the music from pre-1990 or so. The modern music would be found lacking on this kind of setup and lose brightness. Some may even end up liking it.

As for point source nature of the co-axial drivers, its irrespective of altec/vintage. If one goes with modern co-axial designs, then the same benefit is there.

there is something call bone conduction which also translate to hearing and spatial cues which goes much higher (although we do not have headphones for that high range yet) and works in the favor of Supertweeters (considering the content is not rolled off

this is a headphones available which does this
while you are at it do read this too. a bit OT but interesting
Stanford scientist looks for a deeper understanding of hearing through the bones in our heads

 

[manoj.p]

Yes, you are quite right about those sensations. That's why we can feel bass below 20 Hz and we certainly take cues with our skin sensation + hair for high frequencies. But its still not as good as direct hearing.

But the roll off in the altec is still noticeable because it occurs in the hearing range itself. Thats the reason a person having 30 units of altec 604 notices right away the difference with JBL 4410. It's very hard to find manufacturer's frequency response for altec drivers because it wasn't the norm those days. But here is one measurement of Altec VOTT speaker. Red Spade Audio: Altec A7 Voice of the Theatre horns measured

 

[arj]

Yes, you are quite right about those sensations. That's why we can feel bass below 20 Hz and we certainly take cues with our skin sensation + hair for high frequencies. But its still not as good as direct hearing.

thats true for Bass below 50, as you go lower the tactile cues improve.

This is for high frequencies even in the 4-10 khz range where the cranial bones vibrate to convey the music.
apparently this effect magnifies underwater which is of no use to us but might help the fishes to "hear" better

 

[jai1611]

This is for high frequencies even in the 4-10 khz range where the cranial bones vibrate to convey the music.
apparently this effect magnifies underwater which is of no use to us but might help the fishes to "hear" better

Maybe replace your listening chair with a bathtub

 

[jls001]

Maybe replace your listening chair with a bathtub

Make sure you use audiophile-grade liquid bath soap to maximise tactile transmission of sound to your whole body.

 

[viren bakhshi]

manoj.p : The vintage drivers like Tannoy and Altec's were designed in the era where the push was on to systems that sounded warm.

Let me paraphrase that : "Speakers using vintage drivers like Tannoys' and Altecs' were designed in the era where designers knew what music sounded like."

That makes a huge difference! We live in an era where very few people have actually heard music live - most of what we listen to nowadays are studio recordings of electronic instruments. There is no right or wrong with electronic recordings - that is on the whim of the recording engineer. Notice how many "buttons" he has on his recording console!

So, we have a surfeit of "hi-fi". Tizzy highs, and muddy, but thunderous lows. If that's all that we listen to, that becomes music for us. But, why should I blindly accept what is being fed to me. I go out to concerts, listen to music as it is being played, often in purely acoustic settings. There are memories that I can recall as to how real instruments actually sound. And, sad to say, what we currently hear on most hi-fi is far from the truth!

So, I don't want you to get the wrong impression that vintage gear is to blame for not reproducing music fully. I grow tired of hearing that vintage gear is rolled off, is soft, is warm. It definitely is not - it just sounds more like music! The problem is with us - we have to get our ears recalibrated. Listen to live music - then judge for yourselves.

Regards,
Viren

 

[mpw]

Let me paraphrase that : "Speakers using vintage drivers like Tannoys' and Altecs' were designed in the era where designers knew what music sounded like."

=====================================================

sir,

i love this incisive quote.

mpw

 

[captrajesh]

I grow tired of hearing that vintage gear is rolled off, is soft, is warm. It definitely is not - it just sounds more like music!

Having heard how real the trumpets, the guitars, the drums especially snare drums sounded through the Tannoy DC Monitor Reds, can't agree more.

Unless one hears the vintage drivers, one can't really appreciate these things.

 

[manoj.p]

Let me paraphrase that : "Speakers using vintage drivers like Tannoys' and Altecs' were designed in the era where designers knew what music sounded like."

That makes a huge difference! We live in an era where very few people have actually heard music live - most of what we listen to nowadays are studio recordings of electronic instruments. There is no right or wrong with electronic recordings - that is on the whim of the recording engineer. Notice how many "buttons" he has on his recording console!

So, we have a surfeit of "hi-fi". Tizzy highs, and muddy, but thunderous lows. If that's all that we listen to, that becomes music for us. But, why should I blindly accept what is being fed to me. I go out to concerts, listen to music as it is being played, often in purely acoustic settings. There are memories that I can recall as to how real instruments actually sound. And, sad to say, what we currently hear on most hi-fi is far from the truth!

So, I don't want you to get the wrong impression that vintage gear is to blame for not reproducing music fully. I grow tired of hearing that vintage gear is rolled off, is soft, is warm. It definitely is not - it just sounds more like music! The problem is with us - we have to get our ears recalibrated. Listen to live music - then judge for yourselves.

Regards,
Viren

Viren Sir,

Here I was waiting for the whole "Designers knowing Music" to show up, and it did. Although, I do not subscribe to the idea that only old designers knew music and not the modern ones. Surely there were great designers back then and there are now too. There always have been designers who were great listeners and music lovers too. It's not rational to say that only the old designers knew music and the current ones don't. By the way, do we even know the names of the vintage drivers designers and how far they knew about music? Or is it just one generalization/line to throw in support?

As for rolled off high's, it's a fact that those drivers do have rolled off high's. Now whether its needed that way is the debatable fact. Lots of instruments (not digital keyboards) like violin, piccollo, clarinet have extended high frequencies. Would we want a design that produces as its or a design which rather rolls it off? Which one would be indeed more natural? The rolled off one or the one that is more faithful in reproducing it?

Mind you, not all the music is mixed with just sliders - the digital music may be sounding different but not all the music is created like that even now. And, although I am not a big fan of digital music, I would not go to an extent of calling it not music. Good music can come from anywhere. A.R. Rehman uses his synthesizer for creating all the music, can we say his work is not music?

We don't accept everything that is fed to us blindly and what we hear is different on hi-fi. There are lots of factors and it will indeed sound different. That's why the actual live music play is a different experience. But then we don't have to accept that the vintage drivers/music is the only music and everything else isn't. Its fine as a preference but not a reference.

Edit: Just want to add and re-iterate. It's again a preference with rolled off high's. It's not wrong. Just wanted to let others know what a user thought of it compared to modern drivers. There is always a second side to every coin.

 

[viren bakhshi]

Hello manoj.p,

Since you brought up the example of the violin, here is an actual measured frequency response of this instrument:

Obviously, its range can be easily captured by a "vintage" speaker. But, it would be a grave error to think that this frequency curve describes the sound of the violin. You really have to hear it on a "vintage" speaker to appreciate the full tone and sonority of the instrument.

Regards,
Viren

 

[arj]

Hello manoj.p,

Since you brought up the example of the violin, here is an actual measured frequency response of this instrument:

Obviously, its range can be easily captured by a "vintage" speaker. But, it would be a grave error to think that this frequency curve describes the sound of the violin. You really have to hear it on a "vintage" speaker to appreciate the full tone and sonority of the instrument.

Regards,
Viren

Viren, to add on,
The graph above shows the fundamental frequency of the Violin. but the fact that there is a difference between a violin, a Viola and a Cello all doing 100 Hz I believe this is due to the Timbre which is about the Harmonics (Sub and super). and it is that Envelope of frequencies which makes a Stradivarius different from a say Amati

From all I have heard many of the well known drivers are able to preserve this envelope well and hence sound natural.

Again this is not to say that all vintage were good. there are some like the Altec/Tannoy/Jensen etc which are very good and preserves the integrity well but also the not so great would have just fallen by the wayside.

On the newer once also am pretty sure there are many which are good like some of the Lowther/Seas models. but there are many which suck as well all in the name of extended highs and tight bass a lot of these harmonics are being cut off or played around with and thus breaking the "Wholesomeness" of the music.