My intro and request for guidance and advice

[firearm12]

Probably the reason why there is a market segment for non-OEM external PS units.
Some do a good job actually, some may be just fluff.
Cheers,
Raghu

Yup third party power supplies are hit and miss . But if the involved company produces external power supplies, they will always improve as they will know what kind of power the equipment needs inside out. A good power supply seems like a simple thing to design but i have heard its notorious to get right for right application.

Dacs deal with changes in microvolts inside, so can understand how much clean power is important there.

 

[Analogous]

In a world of expensive LPS units, I found Shanti to be reasonably priced, having followed it's development closely on diyaudio forum. There could be others who are having better price/performance ratio but i picked it as a natural companion to an Allo product.

Hi Weathered,
I was holding off buying the Allo Shanti as I was not sure it would make an audible difference in my home (mid fi) set up.
As you have followed its development (and listened?) to it could you share your opinion on if it is worth adding this to an external battery pack?

Power supply is single most important thing imo. Inside most of the equipment, power supply takes bulk of space. Naim has external power supplies which cost even more than their equipment. For digital equipment it can be even more important as voltages are very small and benefit from clean power. An improved power supply will always lead to improved sound quality.

The Naim power supply units are expensive indeed!
As many seem to agree that good quality power is important to each and every component in the audio chain, would be accurate to assume a good power regenerator (using a balanced isolation transformer) powering all the components would be more efficient (As compared to individual clean power solutions for each?)

Probably the reason why there is a market segment for non-OEM external PS units.
Some do a good job actually, some may be just fluff.
Cheers,
Raghu

Hi Raghupb,
Do you have any experience using any external power regeneration? (I assume we all are not talking about power conditioners here) Any insights which ones are better?
I had asked our fellow FMs Prabhusom and Bornfi and they suggested Miracle electronics, based in Bangalore.
Their website lists PS for medical equipment and other specialised purposes, and also......Audio!

 

[oldmonk]

good quality power

is defined by

a heavy high grade transformer atleast 1.25 times of max load
high capacity high quality smoothing capacitances to smooth the ripples with quick charge and discharge times (ofcourse long life )
High quality Regulation
Vibration & Damping

other manufacturers like Teddy Pardo ( in my knowledge - anyone can correct me as needed ) use Op - Amp based voltage regulation
This makes the xformer size lesser and lesser number of capacitors.

But overall - i know - some Naim folks like their Naim equipment bare ( no external PS ) - many of then like it with PS - some prefer Teddy pardo for a smoother sound...

same old story

With a large isolation transformer at home is that we need to take care of its ventilation needs and it can get bulky as well..depending on the load connected to it.

 

[raghupb]

Hi Raghupb,
Do you have any experience using any external power regeneration? (I assume we all are not talking about power conditioners here) Any insights which ones are better?
I had asked our fellow FMs Prabhusom and Bornfi and they suggested Miracle electronics, based in Bangalore.
Their website lists PS for medical equipment and other specialised purposes, and also......Audio!

No. I don't have any experience.
Lots of folks have tried isolation using servo stabilizers. This helps to a certain extant.

But in my opinion, the wall generated direct supply can only do so much.
Meaning, if it is not clean or isolated then other non-audio loads like fans, tubelights, ACs etc have the potential to spew back into the circuit.
Even with audio equipment, mains cord makes a difference.
Not for the component connected to it, per-se, but adjoining ICs and components.
A decent twisted pair of wires goes a long way in mitigating outward leak of EMI.
Add a bit of copper/aluminum sheet as shielding to make it act as a Faraday cage.
On the IC side, if the cables are even partially shielded (netting), it may mitigate inward leakage of any stray EMI too.

All of the above do their individual and collective bit to raise the noise floor.
Digital components need that low noise floor, or will most definitely suffer from bit resolution losses.
Eg. 16 bit info may become 13-14 bit because the component can't extra the info present in LSBs.
Don't even think of 24/32 bit, MQA, any other hi-res if power supply is not clean and stray EMI is not tackled.

On another thread I had suggested viewing The Hans Beekhuyzen Channel - Audio Hygiene series.
Good, clear and simple explanation. Worth a watch.

Edit:
Mains: 220V - 240V
Speaker wire: 10V - 40V
Digital components: 2V (output side) mV on resolution
TTs: MC carts operate at such low voltages that noise can easily override subtleties in the record/cart combo

All in all, it is a veritable EMI soup. Add some chemistry and new life may evolve
My suggestion is take a hard look at your system, implement what you can on a budget and then draw the line

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[firearm12]

The Naim power supply units are expensive indeed!
As many seem to agree that good quality power is important to each and every component in the audio chain, would be accurate to assume a good power regenerator (using a balanced isolation transformer) powering all the components would be more efficient (As compared to individual clean power solutions for each?)

I dont think so, as the power needs for varying equipment is different. Having a regenerator will surely help(if its a good one) but surely we cannot have one single point of supply and expect all equipment to benefit fully. Many of the power supplies will have different outputs to power different stages inside main equipment. Inside the euipment also there can be different block of regulators for different stages, keeping all stages isolated help in keeping electrical hashes and interference isolated for each other. More inportantly power regenerators will provide good ac only, most of the equipment still need to convert it back to dc. Where it certainly helps is to keep external noise separated from equipment and for impedance part so that power is well transferred to the equipment. But noise generated inside from parts also needs to be isolated from affecting other parts. Thats why they. have dirty and clean side in digione signature. My understanding. Someone more versed can comment better.

 

[Weathered]

@Goldenears After reading about users posting benefits of LPS with Usbridge on various forums, at that time, I was on the lookout for a LPS and found LPS units aren't cheap. I thought of using my Mi dual output power bank but could not get the right interface cables to connect the power bank and Usbridge. By then I got to know Allo themselves are in the process of building a LPS - https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendor-s-bazaar/337859-shanti-dual-lps-5v-3a-5v-1-5a.html
"cdsgames" is the Allo designer who started this thread. It's a long one! I followed the development (updates from cdsgames) on this thread and then bought Shanti when released, without listening to it - https://www.hifivision.com/threads/getting-most-from-allo-digione-or-usbridge.75906/page-2
Also check Tarun's impression on power supplies beow, well articulated and matches my experience.

You could also consider the recently released Allo Nirvana instead of Shanti (lookup their product page for comparison).

 

[Analogous]

is defined by

a heavy high grade transformer atleast 1.25 times of max load
high capacity high quality smoothing capacitances to smooth the ripples with quick charge and discharge times (ofcourse long life )
High quality Regulation
Vibration & Damping

other manufacturers like Teddy Pardo ( in my knowledge - anyone can correct me as needed ) use Op - Amp based voltage regulation
This makes the xformer size lesser and lesser number of capacitors.

But overall - i know - some Naim folks like their Naim equipment bare ( no external PS ) - many of then like it with PS - some prefer Teddy pardo for a smoother sound...

same old story

With a large isolation transformer at home is that we need to take care of its ventilation needs and it can get bulky as well..depending on the load connected to it.

And I was hoping for a simple solution!!!
Thank you for these insights. (But, I am not even going to find out what op amps are and what they do

 

[raghupb]

I dont think so, as the power needs for varying equipment is different. Having a regenerator will surely help(if its a good one) but surely we cannot have one single point of supply and expect all equipment to benefit fully. Many of the power supplies will have different outputs to power different stages inside main equipment. Inside the euipment also there can be different block of regulators for different stages, keeping all stages isolated help in keeping electrical hashes and interference isolated for each other. More inportantly power regenerators will provide good ac only, most of the equipment still need to convert it back to dc. Where it certainly helps is to keep external noise separated from equipment and for impedance part so that power is well transferred to the equipment. But noise generated inside from parts also needs to be isolated from affecting other parts. Thats why they. have dirty and clean side in digione signature. My understanding. Someone more versed can comment better.

The SPDIF or USB is carrying digital information over electrical conductors.
In Redbook format (16 bits), assuming the MSB is at 2V, the LSB will be of the order of a few mV.
Now if there's noise riding/spewing from elsewhere, these minute voltages that actually carry encoded music information will drown.
Thus bit resolution loss. Out of 16 bits one may get only 13-14 bits extracted with meaningful content.

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[Analogous]

The SPDIF or USB is carrying digital information. In Redbook format (16 bits), assuming the MSB is at 2V, the LSB will be of the order of a few mV.
Now if there's noise riding/spewing from elsewhere, these minute voltages that actually carry encoded music information will drown.
Thus bit resolution loss. Out of 16 bits one may get only 13-14 bits extracted with meaningful content.

Cheers,
Raghu

@raghupb,
with my limited knowledge, I did not understand any of this. Hope you will try and explain this in simple terms?

heh heh.. you wont find me there many times..

Old monk, Your location says that You are always on the couch!
no offense taken, but as these threads can be read by any FM, I did want to clarify and respond to your comment that seemed to imply I was marketing Allo and AP products. That’s so serious, no?

Now that we got that cleared, what do you think of them?

@Goldenears After reading about users posting benefits of LPS with Usbridge on various forums, at that time, I was on the lookout for a LPS and found LPS units aren't cheap. I thought of using my Mi dual output power bank but could not get the right interface cables to connect the power bank and Usbridge. By then I got to know Allo themselves are in the process of building a LPS - https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendor-s-bazaar/337859-shanti-dual-lps-5v-3a-5v-1-5a.html
"cdsgames" is the Allo designer who started this thread. It's a long one! I followed the development (updates from cdsgames) on this thread and then bought Shanti when released, without listening to it - https://www.hifivision.com/threads/getting-most-from-allo-digione-or-usbridge.75906/page-2
Also check Tarun's impression on power supplies beow, well articulated and matches my experience.

You could also consider the recently released Allo Nirvana instead of Shanti (lookup their product page for comparison).

Weathered,
Thank you for the nice and informative video. Tarun speaks using easy to understand terms that I can follow.
Thanks also for the heads up on the Allo Nirvana. I will be consulting on this with my go to guide and friend here: @shyamv Who kindly came over and helped me set up the Allo signature.

@Goldenears After reading about users posting benefits of LPS with Usbridge on various forums, at that time, I was on the lookout for a LPS and found LPS units aren't cheap. I thought of using my Mi dual output power bank but could not get the right interface cables to connect the power bank and Usbridge. By then I got to know Allo themselves are in the process of building a LPS - https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendor-s-bazaar/337859-shanti-dual-lps-5v-3a-5v-1-5a.html
"cdsgames" is the Allo designer who started this thread. It's a long one! I followed the development (updates from cdsgames) on this thread and then bought Shanti when released, without listening to it - https://www.hifivision.com/threads/getting-most-from-allo-digione-or-usbridge.75906/page-2
Also check Tarun's impression on power supplies beow, well articulated and matches my experience.

You could also consider the recently released Allo Nirvana instead of Shanti (lookup their product page for comparison).

Thank you for the other links. I found them informative.
also discovered this review of PSUs for Raspberry pi DACs by Hans Beekhausen:

 

[raghupb]

Thank you for the other links. I found them informative.
also discovered this review of PSUs for Raspberry pi DACs by Hans Beekhausen:

Watch this guy's Audio Hygiene series
and "does 384khz ... make sense"
Cheers,
Raghu

 

[oldmonk]

to your comment that seemed to imply I was marketing Allo and AP products. That’s so serious, no?

Can you ( re-read and ) point out to me which of my comments imply that you were marketing Allo & AP - please ?

Interesting how we see things in different ways.

I want to know for my own knowledge so i avoid words that cause such inferences to be made

Edit - If you are referring to post no 63 - please tell me which word/s caused you to think so ?

 

[Analogous]

Can you ( re-read and ) point out to me which if my comments imply that you were marketing Allo & AP - please ?

Interesting how we see things in different ways.

I want to know for my own knowledge so i avoid words that cause such inferences to be made

Edit - If you are referring to post no 63 - please tell me which word/s caused you to think so ?

Why so serious?
But seriously, it’s clear now I misinterpreted your comment about not liking such marketing, Within the context of the discussion at that point I jumped to a wrong assumptio. so my bad. apologies. Shall we get back on topic?

Have you heard the Allo signature or the Allo Katana? I’d be interested in your impressions of these.

i am going to check out the audio hygiene vid suggested by @raghupb. Hmmm I thought of ear cleaning buds when I heard the term “Audio hygiene”

 

[raghupb]

<snip>
i am going to check out the audio hygiene vid suggested by @raghupb. Hmmm I thought of ear cleaning buds when I heard the term “Audio hygiene”

De-waxing helps (ears, and ear-brain-mapping)
Cheers,
Raghu

 

[Analogous]

De-waxing helps (ears, and ear-brain-mapping)
Cheers,
Raghu

Some interesting reading for audiophiles, audio enthusiasts and others who may believe that hearing is a simple process:

https://www.who.int/occupational_health/publications/noise2.pdf

 

[oldmonk]

Shall we get back on topic?

The show must go on !

 

[sound1]

is defined by

a heavy high grade transformer atleast 1.25 times of max load
high capacity high quality smoothing capacitances to smooth the ripples with quick charge and discharge times (ofcourse long life )
High quality Regulation
Vibration & Damping

other manufacturers like Teddy Pardo ( in my knowledge - anyone can correct me as needed ) use Op - Amp based voltage regulation
This makes the xformer size lesser and lesser number of capacitors.

But overall - i know - some Naim folks like their Naim equipment bare ( no external PS ) - many of then like it with PS - some prefer Teddy pardo for a smoother sound...

same old story

With a large isolation transformer at home is that we need to take care of its ventilation needs and it can get bulky as well..depending on the load connected to it.

How do you mean? I am just a curious soul, want to learn more about this (pls feel free to PM me). Are you saying voltage regulated Linear Power Supplies (LPS) are better? Do you think if unregulated LPSs sound better than regulated ones (practically, not ideally)? Or you don't have first hand info but just summarizing experts' opinion on the internet? I always thought regulation is an overhead and you needed to account for it with a beefier 'pre-regulation-circuit' but then I am completely out of touch and could be talking out of my a**.

 

[oldmonk]

How do you mean? I am just a curious soul, want to learn more about this (pls feel free to PM me). Are you saying voltage regulated Linear Power Supplies (LPS) are better? Do you think if unregulated LPSs sound better than regulated ones (practically, not ideally)? Or you don't have first hand info but just summarizing experts' opinion on the internet? I always thought regulation is an overhead and you needed to account for it with a beefier 'pre-regulation-circuit' but then I am completely out of touch and could be talking out of my a**.

hi,

am open to correction - i mentioned that in my post

i only mentioned the 2 types of PS which i know of from the market

The specifics of circuitry and science behind it - its upto domain experts (possibly ) like yourselves

The sound of different PS in a persons setup - i cannot comment on nor have i commented on - its each persons individual taste.

Edit - it will be helpful for all if you could let us have your knowledge on PS so we can continue the discussion.

 

[shyamv]

De-waxing helps (ears, and ear-brain-mapping)
Cheers,
Raghu

I can vouch for this. For the last few weeks, I was experiencing pain in my ears and my ears felt clogged as if I am under water! I consulted a doc who said there was excess accumulation of ear wax possibly due to the constant use of earphones for meetings. He dewaxed my ears and now I have attained audio nirvana! Even my crappy bedroom setup seems so detailed with a 3d soundstage.

So my advice to all audiophiles is to stop spending lakhs of rupees with your expensive upgrades! Instead go a nearest ENT doc and get your ears cleaned. This has been the best 'upgrade' ever!!!

Now, you folks can get back to your power conditioning, voltages, LPS etc

 

[sound1]

hi,

am open to correction - i mentioned that in my post

i only mentioned the 2 types of PS which i know of from the market

The specifics of circuitry and science behind it - its upto domain experts (possibly ) like yourselves

The sound of different PS in a persons setup - i cannot comment on nor have i commented on - its each persons individual taste.

Edit - it will be helpful for all if you could let us have your knowledge on PS so we can continue the discussion.

I am not at all an expert, and was genuinely curious about what you had to say because tried replacing the unregulated linear supply that came with my DIY class D amp, with an 800 watt SMPS supply (regulated). Sound was much worse than the original - less details, much less dynamics. I wasn't sure whether it was a bad power supply (it had great reviews), or because it was an SMPS. I spoke to the amp kit designer about this and he said they always suggest unregulated linear power supplies. A lot of audio forums seem to think that unregulated ones sound better than most regulated ones unless designed extremely well.

 

[sound1]

Even my crappy bedroom setup seems so detailed

wait a minute... if anything it should seem worse right?? you admitted the setup was crappy? are you sure your doc is doing what he is supposed to do? is he really transparent? something is fishy mate!!