Power cords

Could you/anyone please point me to one scientific reference or technical explanation on why Power Cords can make measurable audio quality difference?

I'm open to learning this "phenomenon" which at least to me beats all engineering logic. If this is indeed true (100% unlikely), I do have the resources to further test this with high-end test gear and publish a scientific white paper on this very topic(AFAIK such a paper doesn't exist). But I just don't like to make myself a clown in the hardware design community to start wasting precious test equipment resources and time on something which beats logic in first place.

What I'm really looking forward is not a listening session which is highly subjective but a noise floor, THD & Spectral measurement snapshot comparing an OE Power Cable and a Virgin-Kissed Power Cable connected to a balanced power supply.

Please do not quote "sponsored" reviews (available aplenty), placebo reports and references from snake-oil peddling websites.

I have not quoted any reviews.. A few people including myself are inviting anyone care to listen to the differences to come over and listen. Thats all.. Everything in life cannot be measured my friend.. but it can be exprienced.. all you need to do is keep an open mind and make the effort to go listen...

"When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge of it is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind; it may be the beginning of knowledge, but you have scarcely, in your thoughts, advanced it to the stage of science." - Sir William Thompson.
 
..."When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge of it is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind; it may be the beginning of knowledge, but you have scarcely, in your thoughts, advanced it to the stage of science." - Sir William Thompson.

good one..another famous one
THE MISSING LINK

The concepts of accuracy and musicality can be seen as the basis for the two categories of neutrality. The history of audio componentry is peppered with instances of components that measure well but dont make the grade sonically, as well as components that measure poorly but are pleasant to listen to.

H. H. Scott was a manufacturer of tube components back in the 1950s and 60s. The chief engineer was Mr. von Recklenhausen. His most famous quotation goes something like this: "If a component measures good and sounds good, it is good. If a component sounds good but measures bad, youre measuring the wrong thing." To say that the wrong measurements have been made for decades would be to take the easy way out. It might be far more appropriate to say that in the absence of the "right" measurement, too much emphasis has been placed on the "wrong" measurement. While this "wrong" measurement is still an appropriate and valuable measurement to make, it is just not the most important measurement anymore. (The "wrong" measurement could be any of those used for measuring static neutrality. See Appendix B in part two of this article.)

entire link here....it a good read
 
This is not directly related to the discussion at hand but nevertheless has relevance in the way scientific methods are applied to certain human activities, perhaps incorrectly. This is an article by Sunil Khilnani in yesterday's Times Of India.

The greatest mystery - Times Of India

If nothing else, it is highly readable for the demystification of Higgs-Boson particle:)

Coming back to the discussion, this begs the question: is everything about an audio device quantifiable and therefore measurable? If yes, it begs the next question: is it desirable?
 
..Coming back to the discussion, this begs the question: is everything about an audio device quantifiable and therefore measurable? If yes, it begs the next question: is it desirable?
thanks for the ariticle..enjoyed reading it.

The experimental pursuit of the Higgs boson is a vindication of how positive science is supposed to work: through identification of a problem and formulation of a testable theory, repeated experiment and amassing of independently gathered data, and interpretation in light of the theory. This is the scientific method at its modest best, intellectual inquiry as it should be.
 
Everything in life cannot be measured my friend.. but it can be experienced...

This isn't any complex as life is my friend...This is just basic engineering and audio/power engineering is not that complex as many snake oil manufacturers tries to make believe.

At least in low frequency (relatively speaking) domains like audio engineering, today's test equipment are capable of measuring at least a few million times more than what humans can ever perceive and if it can't be measured, it most probably isn't there...Plain and simple!!! And that's how the engineering community would view it.

The reason that there isn't a single technical paper published so far on this is proof enough for me to add this as yet another audio urban legend.

When time permits, I hope to pen down why this is just audiophoolery approaching this from a power supply design perspective. Like Thad mentioned before, if a power cord is making a sonic difference , its high time you throw out that pathetically engineered power supply unit first. The basic design aim of a power supply unit (in this case) is to keep the amplifier or digital circuits fed with quality and stable power under all operating conditions. If a fancy power cord is changing its output characteristics and hence the sonic signature, the power supply design is fundamentally flawed with poor line/load regulation to begin with.

What's next? An overpriced power cord making a better performing personal computer? Come to think of it...If a hallowed power cord can make a CDP sing better, why not a faster and better PC?

My humble suggestion is to spend your hard earned money in some other part of the audio chain which would make some engineering sense than this power cord nonsense... but hey its a free world and we all are matured enough to decide what floats our boat.
 
Since the Higgs particle is mentioned, and I have worked on the properties of theories involving Higgs and Higgs-like particles, perhaps I can chime in.

I find the discussion on the discovery of the Higgs or for that matter any particle somewhat relevant for the ongoing discussion/debate on the power cord :).

Every fundamental particle has a unique and complete set of properties (like its mass, charge, spin or intrinsic angular momentum, its behavior under the Lorentz transformations etc). If the set is NOT complete, there is obviously a problem to identify the particle uniquely. In other words there may be two or more particles having some of the properties being the same, but others different. That's why, measuring the complete set of properties can only uniquely identify the particle. In the example of the Higgs, it transforms under the Lorentz group as a scalar particle, it has spin zero, it also has no charge. The only missing property is the mass which the Glashow-Weinberg-Salam model (known as the Standard Model) does not predict. From a lot of experiments, the region below 115 GeV and above 130 GeV has been excluded. Now two experiments at the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) at CERN Geneva are finding some faint signals of a spin zero, chargeless scalar particle around 125 GeV. However, to call it the experimental discovery of the Higgs particle, there is a serious need to increase the number of events by a significant amount. This will of course happen in the course of time. BTW, not finding Higgs at all in experiments, is also not a disaster for the theorists. It just means that the symmetry breaking sector of the Standard Model needs a revision and new thinking. As a theorist, I am excited about such possibilities too.

Now, with the above in mind, let us come back to the discussion of measurements in audio equipments and accessories. I have stated it a few times in this forum, but I do not think anybody appreciates my point here. So let me gather some courage and say it again. The list of measurements in audio is definitely far from a complete set (in the sense I discussed the complete set in the previous paragraph). And, that's why, believe me or not, I have paid almost no attention to the measurements on audio business. I use some measurements selectively: for example, when I have to match an amplifier to a pair of speakers, it helps in looking at the sensitivity of the speaker and the impedance vs frequency curve for the speaker.

Reaching a conclusion without having a complete set is dangerous. The conclusion is as likely to be incorrect as it is to be correct.

Importance of a sustained supply of a perfectly sinusoidal electrical supply with a fixed and correct amplitude and fixed frequency is understood by all. But is a sinusoidal wave form (meaning a single frequency) actually possible? Theory tells you that any energy carrying signal has to be a wave packet (meaning a linear superposition of several waves). The power cord situation is too complex to understand, at least for me. But I should be honest and actually state the experimental facts, although my experience is quite limited in this business. In my experience, changing the power cord and the connectors at its two ends can affect the sound. This is something I can demonstrate to anybody (including people not in our hobby) in my system, it is so obvious, but all power cords did not affect the sound significantly, only some did. This is something I have not understood at all, being a physicist myself. But I am just stating what I and some others have experienced in my system. Some day I like to understand the physics behind this. I know we are talking about only power cords and not interconnects or speaker cables, but still I'd request everybody to keep in mind that the musical signals are very complicated : at a given point of time it has a wave form necessarily having many many harmonics (even before any non-linear processes and amplification stages), and this form changes non-trivially with time, that is, with time the relative amplitudes of the waves present in the form change with respect to each other; in addition, the absolute amplitudes of the individual waves are also changing with time (at times quite drastically, this is what we call large dynamic range). Hence this is not an easy system to study.

Regards.
 
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digitalv said:
Like Thad mentioned before, if a power cord is making a sonic difference , its high time you throw out that pathetically engineered power supply unit first.
Hasten to add that I was quoting some-one else, whose gist was pretty much the same as your paragraph on this.

I am not a great one for numbers: I was thrown out of the maths class, and fared only slightly better in physics. I also think that, when one is blissed out on good music, the very last thing one wants to think about is the maths of the equipment that is producing it. However, I take issue with the it-can't-be-measure audio school, because everything we hear from our music equipment is the result of a physical movement of components in a speaker, and that, in itself is a physically measurable event. I suspect that the engineers would say that the next most-significant thing in this sound-making unit, the speaker cabinet, can also have its effect on the sound precisely measured, and, at least in the case of commercially manufactured speakers, that has probably been a part of the design process.

<Crossposted with Asit>

In the face of a conversation between a pro physicist and a pro engineer --- I must take a back seat and simply watch with interest!
 
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At least in low frequency (relatively speaking) domains like audio engineering, today's test equipment are capable of measuring at least a few million times more than what humans can ever perceive and if it can't be measured, it most probably isn't there...Plain and simple!!! And that's how the engineering community would view it.

.

actually i would be really interested in knowing what is it that you are going to measure to see if the sound is good ?
as far as i know there is no set of complete parameters which are able to define this sound quality !


Had this in uposted and when i Do, I see a post by Asit which is really embarassing my post :D
 
Addendum: I also wanted to take an opinion from an audio professional and called up my college buddy who is a Professional Sound Engineer and has worked with many premier studios across the world and he too dismissed the power cord theory as total B.S.
 
This isn't any complex as life is my friend...This is just basic engineering and audio/power engineering is not that complex as many snake oil manufacturers tries to make believe.

At least in low frequency (relatively speaking) domains like audio engineering, today's test equipment are capable of measuring at least a few million times more than what humans can ever perceive and if it can't be measured, it most probably isn't there...Plain and simple!!! And that's how the engineering community would view it.

The reason that there isn't a single technical paper published so far on this is proof enough for me to add this as yet another audio urban legend.

When time permits, I hope to pen down why this is just audiophoolery approaching this from a power supply design perspective. Like Thad mentioned before, if a power cord is making a sonic difference , its high time you throw out that pathetically engineered power supply unit first. The basic design aim of a power supply unit (in this case) is to keep the amplifier or digital circuits fed with quality and stable power under all operating conditions. If a fancy power cord is changing its output characteristics and hence the sonic signature, the power supply design is fundamentally flawed with poor line/load regulation to begin with.
y
What's next? An overpriced power cord making a better performing personal computer? Come to think of it...If a hallowed power cord can make a CDP sing better, why not a faster and better PC?

My humble suggestion is to spend your hard earned money in some other part of the audio chain which would make some engineering sense than this power cord nonsense... but hey its a free world and we all are matured enough to decide what floats our boat.

you are in wrong thread, give it up already.
 
actually i would be really interested in knowing what is it that you are going to measure to see if the sound is good ?

We just need to measure whether there is any change in output signal characteristics with a OE power cable and next with a fancy power cable...

Sounding good is highly subjective and varies from person to person and cannot be made a reference in such comparisons.
 
We just need to measure whether there is any change in output signal characteristics with a OE power cable and next with a fancy power cable...

If you can refrain from using such attributes as BS etc, I am all ears. Otherwise, I'll drop out of this discussion. Respecting others and being restrained in a discussion is the first condition that needs to be adhered to.

I am really curious, which signal characteristics would you measure? Would you be kind enough to list them?

I'll ask you another question: where do you think impedance (or let's make it simple, and take only resistance) in a conductor comes from, given that in a cable the electrons are all in the so-called conduction band and are free to move under an ambient electric field? If they are really free, there should be no impedance to their movement, right? I am sorry to have asked you this question. I certainly do not want to put you through a quiz, or something like that. Ignore the question if you have not worried about these things.
I just needed to understand the basic premises with which you are making a few bold statements. I acknowledge that the problem is a hard one and can appreciate your disbelief, especially when even being a physicist I do not have much understanding as to why a power cord may make a difference.

Regards.
 
If you can refrain from using such attributes as BS etc, I am all ears. Otherwise, I'll drop out of this discussion. Respecting others and being restrained in a discussion is the first condition that needs to be adhered to.

I'm really sorry if it offended anyone... I wouldn't be but I don't expect everyone to take slang lightly however harmless they are...Was just conveying what my sound engineering colleague just told me.

I am really curious, which signal characteristics would you measure? Would you be kind enough to list them?

We do run a lot of test suites (Ex. Multi Tone) as part of audio quality measurement before the product is released to OEM's or clients. Each suite internally measure a lot of individual characteristics like Cross talk, SNR, IMD, THD, IR (Impulse response), Jitter, Wander, headroom, Spectrum sweep.....

We could do any or all of the of the above and more with the different power cords and I can assure you that none are going to change with a power cord swap (as long as they all are within minimum specifications).

I certainly do not want to put you through a quiz, or something like that.

Please don't feel bad...After all we are here to share and learn...Time permitting, I could learn a thing or two about solid state physics from you and vice-versa for hardware/product engineering.

I acknowledge that the problem is a hard one and can appreciate your disbelief

I don't see this issue as a hard one... at least not yet. Thanks for your understanding and I do really appreciate it.
 
Sounding good is highly subjective and varies from person to person and cannot be made a reference in such comparisons.

If people can hear a difference why would you state that they are wrong, unless you think you know more than everyone else. Do you?
 
We just need to measure whether there is any change in output signal characteristics with a OE power cable and next with a fancy power cable...

Sounding good is highly subjective and varies from person to person and cannot be made a reference in such comparisons.

Sounding good is certainly subjective but surely different people can perceive the differences in sound across the audio bands (say a clearer mid-range, or a less rolled-off high) produced by different cords. Or the width and depth of the stereo image of the sound being played. Or to take it a bit further, the specificity of the images in three dimensional space. After all, after a designer is through with the physics, mechanics and electronics of designing an audio equipment, he/she sits down to voice his/her baby by subjective listening. And that's what we eventually buy.
 
How do you measure what a person's brain interprets? How do you clearly demarcate it from placebo?

So going by your previous posts, since the brain cannot be measured, it probably doesnt work?

Take a break and go listen to some power cords in a good setup. Then post. Please.
 
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