Topping DAC's on HPZ

[DB1989]

Ah yes. But based on my limited understanding of this phenomenon (which I think applies more to low SPLs) people should have the same experience even going dac only to a preamp or integrated at low volumes? Maybe I need to re-read Flethcer Munson more carefully

Also, never discount the effects of placebo.

To be able to tell the difference in dynamics, which will have to be from memory, is a long shot. This is because to engage "preamp" mode in the E30/E50, you simply have to reduce the volume/gain which is in 0.5db intervals. To elucidate, 0.0 DB is DAC mode whereas anything lower is preamp mode.

Now if one has to compare the dynamics in DAC mode vs Preamp mode, and you listen to the E30 at lets say -6db to test the Premamp mode, you'll have to reduce the volume of your integrated/pre/power also by exactly -6db after having reset the DAC to 0.0db. The time lag involved in level matching the volumes of the integrated/pre/power and the DAC in itself would obfuscate the difference unless it is very pronounced.

 

[Credoh]

But there seems to be some truth to the phenomenon - the RME ADI-2 DAC FS, which is an ASR darling, resets its reference level at 7db intervals whenever one decreases the volume so that dynamics don't get compressed. Whether this phenomenon plagues the E30/E50 is something i cannot testify about.

However, when i reduce the volume on the RME ADI-2 FS also, whether the steps in reference levels preserve the dynamics or not, i don't find myself immune to the effects of the Fletcher Munson curve.

This is very helpful DB! So just to clarify, the RME in preamp mode has volume steps of 7db vs something like the E30 which does 0.5 db? Could you please explain "resets reference level at 7db" please.

This is where variable loudness on the RME comes in (which can be switched on/off, boost levels modified, crossover for the bass and treble frequencies can also be set precisely etc. - its maddening). It progressively boosts the bass and treble as the volume goes down so that the transition is smooth and undetectable to the ear. I have found this particular function to preserve dynamics far more effectively than the reference steps which make no difference to my ear (it may seem paradoxical but the reason i don't see a difference without loudness engaged is because I feel a difference in dynamics as the volume goes down).

Wow, I didn't know about this variable loudness feature on the RME. At least in theory and as described by you it could be a fantastic tool. Wonder if there are any slightly more affordable dacs that do this..

 

[Credoh]

Also, never discount the effects of placebo.

To be able to tell the difference in dynamics, which will have to be from memory, is a long shot. This is because to engage "preamp" mode in the E30/E50, you simply have to reduce the volume/gain which is in 0.5db intervals. To elucidate, 0.0 DB is DAC mode whereas anything lower is preamp mode.

Now if one has to compare the dynamics in DAC mode vs Preamp mode, and you listen to the E30 at lets say -6db to test the Premamp mode, you'll have to reduce the volume of your integrated/pre/power also by exactly -6db after having reset the DAC to 0.0db. The time lag involved in level matching the volumes of the integrated/pre/power and the DAC in itself would obfuscate the difference unless it is very pronounced.

Warning - next question has potential can of worms implications

Speaking of placebo, given your most impressive collection of gear - with all else being equal and if volumes were to be fairly well matched - in a blind test would you be able to tell apart the RME vs the E30?

 

[DB1989]

This is very helpful DB! So just to clarify, the RME in preamp mode has volume steps of 7db vs something like the E30 which does 0.5 db?

No. The steps are in increments of 0.5 db in the RME as well. Reference levels affect the SnR. Theoretically, dynamics get crushed when the preamp can no longer maintain the reference SNR levels at lower decibels.

Could you please explain "resets reference level at 7db" please.

Insofar as the RME is concerned, for every -6db reduction the reference level is readjusted (mistake on my part earlier when I'd mentioned 7db - non-linear as I have engaged loudness which, depending on the volume, would also change the steps of each reference level), .

Have a gander at Para 19.3 at Page 37 of the RME manual which explains the concept much better (I'd be willing to wager this to be the most voluminous manual you've ever come across vis-a-vis a piece of hifi equipment )

https://www.rme-audio.de/downloads/adi2dac_e.pdf

Wow, I didn't know about this variable loudness feature on the RME. At least in theory and as described by you it could be a fantastic tool. Wonder if there are any slightly more affordable dacs that do this..

I believe Yamaha has this feature in their Integrated amps.

 

[DB1989]

Speaking of placebo, given your most impressive collection of gear - with all else being equal and if volumes were to be fairly well matched - in a blind test would you be able to tell apart the RME vs the E30?

Never tried this specific comparison (as i have the E30 plugged into the SMSL DA9 for my bedroom setup) but i have tried this particular experiment with various other gear and the answer is entirely circumstantial and can be rather long winded.

The short of it is, and the reason why i emphasized on "The time lag involved in level matching the volumes of the integrated/pre/power and the DAC" in Post #221 is because while switching immediately, the difference between DACs are clearly noticeable though not "day and night"

During @Bloom@83's recent visit, we made this very comparison on my setup between the RME ADi-2 DAC FS and the Chord Mojo with levels matched and the difference was obvious while quick switching.

Introduce some time lag between the switching and I don't think i'd be able to tell unless I A/B the same passage of the same song a few hundred times between the DACs.

 

[DB1989]

Warning - next question has potential can of worms implications

Speaking of placebo, given your most impressive collection of gear - with all else being equal and if volumes were to be fairly well matched - in a blind test would you be able to tell apart the RME vs the E30?

Introduce some time lag between the switching and I don't think i'd be able to tell unless I A/B the same passage of the same song a few hundred times between the DACs.

A small disclaimer which i thought was obvious but nevertheless, needs to be stated as a measure of abundant caution - the ability to tell differences also depends from person to person. Similar to any other hobby, a person's experience and immersion (coupled with the inherent ability of one's sensory organs) play an important role in one's ability to distinguish nuances - think wine and perfumes.

My inability to tell differences from memory is purely subjective i.e. it may be far more exaggerated than the next person.

 

[Credoh]

No. The steps are in increments of 0.5 db in the RME as well. Reference levels affect the SnR. Theoretically, dynamics get crushed when the preamp can no longer maintain the reference SNR levels at lower decibels.


Insofar as the RME is concerned, for every -6db reduction the reference level is readjusted (mistake on my part earlier when I'd mentioned 7db - non-linear as I have engaged loudness which, depending on the volume, would also change the steps of each reference level), .

Have a gander at Para 19.3 at Page 37 of the RME manual which explains the concept much better (I'd be willing to wager this to be the most voluminous manual you've ever come across vis-a-vis a piece of hifi equipment )

https://www.rme-audio.de/downloads/adi2dac_e.pdf

I believe Yamaha has this feature in their Integrated amps.

Ah yes the famous RME manual. Thanks a lot DB for some fantastic insights. This has got me
Interested in researching some more on reference levels & low volume snr. Will check out the yams too. Thanks again

 

[ktks1]

While not yet being a DAC on HPZ, this offering from Topping might stir things up:

TOPPING DM7 8CH ES9038PRO Digital to Analog Convertor (DAC)

Spec: USB IN PCM:44.1kHz-192kHz/16bit-32bit 8ch DSD(DOP):DSD64 8ch DSD(Native):DSD64-DSD128 8ch DM7 DAC parameters (USB In@96kHz) THD+N(A-wt) <0.00009% @1kHz

shenzhenaudio.com

 

[DB1989]

While not yet being a DAC on HPZ, this offering from Topping might stir things up:

TOPPING DM7 8CH ES9038PRO Digital to Analog Convertor (DAC)

Spec: USB IN PCM:44.1kHz-192kHz/16bit-32bit 8ch DSD(DOP):DSD64 8ch DSD(Native):DSD64-DSD128 8ch DM7 DAC parameters (USB In@96kHz) THD+N(A-wt) <0.00009% @1kHz

shenzhenaudio.com

Interesting device but seems to be for rather niche use case scenarios for what is already a niche since it does not support proprietary multi-channel formats.

I'm wondering who the target audience is? People who consume content through their PC primarily and creators?

 

[John]

I really like the tonality of the E30, compared to D50s, so if I am looking to upgrade, which Dacs should I be looking at?

 

[bipin1143]

I really like the tonality of the E30, compared to D50s, so if I am looking to upgrade, which Dacs should I be looking at?

I have D50 which I'm willing to let go
lmk if that suits you

 

[chander]

No. The steps are in increments of 0.5 db in the RME as well. Reference levels affect the SnR. Theoretically, dynamics get crushed when the preamp can no longer maintain the reference SNR levels at lower decibels.


Insofar as the RME is concerned, for every -6db reduction the reference level is readjusted (mistake on my part earlier when I'd mentioned 7db - non-linear as I have engaged loudness which, depending on the volume, would also change the steps of each reference level), .

Have a gander at Para 19.3 at Page 37 of the RME manual which explains the concept much better (I'd be willing to wager this to be the most voluminous manual you've ever come across vis-a-vis a piece of hifi equipment )

https://www.rme-audio.de/downloads/adi2dac_e.pdf

I believe Yamaha has this feature in their Integrated amps.

HI have a question for you. I have been playing with the Loudness feature of the RME ADI 2 DAC FS, it changes the sound signature drastically. What is the benefit of that?

 

[Passive_audio_enthusiast]

HI have a question for you. I have been playing with the Loudness feature of the RME ADI 2 DAC FS, it changes the sound signature drastically. What is the benefit of that?

At low volumes, as per our human hearings nature, our sensitivity is only good at midrange, meaning we need a boost on highs and lows to make it sound even. It’s meant for low loudness listening.

 

[chander]

At low volumes, as per our human hearings nature, our sensitivity is only good at midrange, meaning we need a boost on highs and lows to make it sound even. It’s meant for low loudness listening.

So good only listening at low volumes? Is that what you are saying?

 

[Passive_audio_enthusiast]

So good only listening at low volumes? Is that what you are saying?

Once you push the volume up, our ears are more sensitive to highs and lows so the effect will start negatively affecting the sound. It means at higher volume levels we then will hear a V Shaped signature.

For more details just read this page :

Equal-loudness contour - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[DB1989]

HI have a question for you. I have been playing with the Loudness feature of the RME ADI 2 DAC FS, it changes the sound signature drastically. What is the benefit of that?

Well, it does boost the bass and treble. You can choose to decrease the number of steps by which the bass/ treble is boosted or the volume at which it kicks in.

 

[Prateek-Epitome]

I used E30 ii Lite and it was a very fuzzy sounding DAC. It needs to be balanced