Bi Amping Advice

Vivek Batra

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Hi Fms

I own Denon x4500H 9.2 AVR with Klipsch RP-8000F and R 115 SW. I am strictly in to music only. I just thought of bi amping the speakers. I am not very sure if this is going to improve my listening experience (BTW not very happy with this combination of AVR and Speakers). Just wanted to catch up some brillant minds over here on bi amping.

Is it worth the effort anyways? Anyone who has any experience with bi amping please share you experience wether it improved the sound or no improvement at all?

I am using bare cable connections as of now, if the bi amp is of any good I would like to invest in some good banana plugs as well depends on your valuable opinions/suggestions.

Edit:

1. Any risks involved?
2. Any chnages in the impedence?
3. Any added load on the AVR?
4. Anything else I am missing?

Thanks a lot.
 
Last edited:
Yes receiver no matter which one is never as good as a stereo amp for music.

The receiver should have the settings to utilise unused amps to biamp. It definitely helps. Check out the manual on how to set it up.

I have kef towers biamped currently using two stereo Power amps and never been happier.

Mash
 
How to part is clear to me. Just wanted to know if this would really make me happier in terms of pronounced mids and lows or at least equally audible as lows.
 
Yes receiver no matter which one is never as good as a stereo amp for music.

The receiver should have the settings to utilise unused amps to biamp. It definitely helps. Check out the manual on how to set it up.

I have kef towers biamped currently using two stereo Power amps and never been happier.

Mash
When you say bi amped from two stereo power amps, you mean the stereo power amp has 4 set of terminals? Or how this works with power amps?
 
Klipsch speakers are very high sensitivity wise so what you are planning to do is not going to serve the purpose in my humble opinion. Reading your threads & post, it is very clear that you want to sell your equipment, so why not pursue that & start afresh with a stereo amp & speakers that will last with you & satisfy your listening pleasures for long term?
 
Klipsch speakers are very high sensitivity wise so what you are planning to do is not going to serve the purpose in my humble opinion. Reading your threads & post, it is very clear that you want to sell your equipment, so why not pursue that & start afresh with a stereo amp & speakers that will last with you & satisfy your listening pleasures for long term?
Hi

Thanks for going through my previous threads. I am eager to start afresh. I am just doing the last bits by not leaving any stone unturned before I call it quits with this equipment.
 
When you say bi amped from two stereo power amps, you mean the stereo power amp has 4 set of terminals? Or how this works with power amps?
Hey,

No I mean two separate stereo amps. I use a diy PEECEEBEE V4 Poweramp for the tweeter and mids. A nad c320bee in Poweramp mode for the bass driver. Speakers are kef iq5. Made a noticeable difference to the sound, imaging and instrument separation. The bass cleaned up too.

See if you can try the v4. The amp has slightly elevated mids making the vocals sound great and highs are very clear.

MaSh
 
You can (1) Bi wire or (2) Biamp.
(1) Bi wiring means you have two pair of wires going to ONE speaker connection on the amp. They are a parallel connection. At the speaker end one pair goes to the HF connection ( tweeter) and the other to the LF (bass speaker) connection. The wires could be the same type for both or you can use a smaller gauge ( diameter of individual strands ) for the HF , tweeter section, and a heavier guage for the LF section. How different this would sound is not always predictable but you have to try it out. But the last suggestion could be preferable. There is a recent post somewhere about choosing wire guage somewhere on this forum. AND , ALWAYS keep your wires as short as possible ! Don't keep extra lengths coiled up . If you have extra wire then do all the testing and then finally cut it to the exact length you require.
Does this sound better than just one pair of speaker cables ? When I tried it I found it did . But there are others who say they hear no difference. If this interests you , you MUST try it in your system and see what YOU think about it.
We had a pair of Dynaudio Audience 50 speakers that sound very good. Apparently Dynaudio said that it had only two terminals because biwiring didn't make a difference. But then who in Dynaudio said that or was it just a marketing blurb to explain away the lack of biwiring at this price ? So since our experiments with other speakers showed a difference we decided to forego the warranty and pulled out the terminals and installed a biwiring socket in its place. We had to chop up the pcb tracks on the crossover to separate the ground of the woofer and tweeter and had to enlarge the hole on the cabinet to accept the new biwireable socket. This would also kill it's resale value !
So one speaker was now biwired and one was in stock condition. We tested/compared them individually for quite a long time. The biwired one DID sound better. Not chalk and cheese but the biwired one was a step up. Mainly in the HF region.
Just a note on speaker cables. The ones that are good ( like a bunch of enamelled wire of proper guage ) can bring up the HF performance in a subtle way and percussion/drums can get a snap to it that wasn't so audible earlier .

(2) Then you have biamping . This is more expensive. You need another stereo power amp for this. One power amp is connected to the LF speaker terminals and the other amp is connected to the HF speaker terminals . With separate speaker wires of course ! However there is a small catch here .
The two amps must have the same 'gain' or adjusted to have identical gain while being connected to the same source . There are other small pitfalls too.
Now both power amps inputs are in parallel , so the effective input impedance is smaller , typically half of what it was earlier if they had similar input impedance. This will change the low frequency roll off. That may or may not be audible. Maybe not, in a good amp. You also need a Y connector to the external preamp ( or preamp output on one amp ) and connect one lead to one power amp input and the other to the second power amp . As you can see its getting more complicated now . Setting the gain to be equal on both stereo power amps is essential. If not , you will need to attach a variable potentiometer ( a preset or volume control ) to the more sensitive amp's input ( if it has no volume control of its own at its input ) and reduce the input level. Needless to say you need to know what you are doing AND a meter to check this.
So does this sound better than scheme (1) . Yes it does . Its much better and the difference is very audible.

(3) the third possibility is to use an active filter that " matches the curve of the stock crossover when loaded with the corresponding speaker driver " and then remove the internal passive speaker crossover altogether . Yes ,sounds even better ! But then it's not for the faint hearted AND you need test equipment to do this properly ! At least a signal source and an ac mV meter. Typical DMM's will not do this unless they specify a bandwidth of at least 20 to 20 Khz and those are expensive. MOST are good only up to a couple of kHz and LF performance is not accurate very much lower than 50 Hz. But there are software solutions also on the NET.
Active systems sound much louder than the existing passive system AND sound cleaner over the whole bandwidth . A 20 watt per channel pair of amps will sound amazingly loud and clean ! There is a reason for this and its all about maths !

All this requires plenty of free time and a knowledgeable companion, if you don't know what to do yourself !
However it IS an enjoyable experience because the end result can never be poorer than the start and most often is audibly better !

However its good to start with the speaker cables and biwiring scheme ( item 1 ) as it is the easiest to do and you get to know if it does make a difference in your system.
 
Hey,

No I mean two separate stereo amps. I use a diy PEECEEBEE V4 Poweramp for the tweeter and mids. A nad c320bee in Poweramp mode for the bass driver. Speakers are kef iq5. Made a noticeable difference to the sound, imaging and instrument separation. The bass cleaned up too.

See if you can try the v4. The amp has slightly elevated mids making the vocals sound great and highs are very clear.

MaSh

Why would the mids of the amp be elevated ? It has a ruler flat response . The only possibility is if the power amp had significant output impedance ( and I doubt that here ) and the speaker had a rising impedance in the mid band. In two way speakers the impedance of the speaker could be lowest in the midband. Is there a mismatch of gain between the two amps ?
 
You can (1) Bi wire or (2) Biamp.
(1) Bi wiring means you have two pair of wires going to ONE speaker connection on the amp. They are a parallel connection. At the speaker end one pair goes to the HF connection ( tweeter) and the other to the LF (bass speaker) connection. The wires could be the same type for both or you can use a smaller gauge ( diameter of individual strands ) for the HF , tweeter section, and a heavier guage for the LF section. How different this would sound is not always predictable but you have to try it out. But the last suggestion could be preferable. There is a recent post somewhere about choosing wire guage somewhere on this forum. AND , ALWAYS keep your wires as short as possible ! Don't keep extra lengths coiled up . If you have extra wire then do all the testing and then finally cut it to the exact length you require.
Does this sound better than just one pair of speaker cables ? When I tried it I found it did . But there are others who say they hear no difference. If this interests you , you MUST try it in your system and see what YOU think about it.
We had a pair of Dynaudio Audience 50 speakers that sound very good. Apparently Dynaudio said that it had only two terminals because biwiring didn't make a difference. But then who in Dynaudio said that or was it just a marketing blurb to explain away the lack of biwiring at this price ? So since our experiments with other speakers showed a difference we decided to forego the warranty and pulled out the terminals and installed a biwiring socket in its place. We had to chop up the pcb tracks on the crossover to separate the ground of the woofer and tweeter and had to enlarge the hole on the cabinet to accept the new biwireable socket. This would also kill it's resale value !
So one speaker was now biwired and one was in stock condition. We tested/compared them individually for quite a long time. The biwired one DID sound better. Not chalk and cheese but the biwired one was a step up. Mainly in the HF region.
Just a note on speaker cables. The ones that are good ( like a bunch of enamelled wire of proper guage ) can bring up the HF performance in a subtle way and percussion/drums can get a snap to it that wasn't so audible earlier .

(2) Then you have biamping . This is more expensive. You need another stereo power amp for this. One power amp is connected to the LF speaker terminals and the other amp is connected to the HF speaker terminals . With separate speaker wires of course ! However there is a small catch here .
The two amps must have the same 'gain' or adjusted to have identical gain while being connected to the same source . There are other small pitfalls too.
Now both power amps inputs are in parallel , so the effective input impedance is smaller , typically half of what it was earlier if they had similar input impedance. This will change the low frequency roll off. That may or may not be audible. Maybe not, in a good amp. You also need a Y connector to the external preamp ( or preamp output on one amp ) and connect one lead to one power amp input and the other to the second power amp . As you can see its getting more complicated now . Setting the gain to be equal on both stereo power amps is essential. If not , you will need to attach a variable potentiometer ( a preset or volume control ) to the more sensitive amp's input ( if it has no volume control of its own at its input ) and reduce the input level. Needless to say you need to know what you are doing AND a meter to check this.
So does this sound better than scheme (1) . Yes it does . Its much better and the difference is very audible.

(3) the third possibility is to use an active filter that " matches the curve of the stock crossover when loaded with the corresponding speaker driver " and then remove the internal passive speaker crossover altogether . Yes ,sounds even better ! But then it's not for the faint hearted AND you need test equipment to do this properly ! At least a signal source and an ac mV meter. Typical DMM's will not do this unless they specify a bandwidth of at least 20 to 20 Khz and those are expensive. MOST are good only up to a couple of kHz and LF performance is not accurate very much lower than 50 Hz. But there are software solutions also on the NET.
Active systems sound much louder than the existing passive system AND sound cleaner over the whole bandwidth . A 20 watt per channel pair of amps will sound amazingly loud and clean ! There is a reason for this and its all about maths !

All this requires plenty of free time and a knowledgeable companion, if you don't know what to do yourself !
However it IS an enjoyable experience because the end result can never be poorer than the start and most often is audibly better !

However its good to start with the speaker cables and biwiring scheme ( item 1 ) as it is the easiest to do and you get to know if it does make a difference in your system.
Thanks for detailed post. I guess I can use height 1 terminal of my AVR for bi amp. No need to have another amp. Of course that would still be sharing the same power supply but a dedicated channel for LF and MFs. Please correct me if I am thinking out of the way.
 
Why would the mids of the amp be elevated ? It has a ruler flat response . The only possibility is if the power amp had significant output impedance ( and I doubt that here ) and the speaker had a rising impedance in the mid band. In two way speakers the impedance of the speaker could be lowest in the midband. Is there a mismatch of gain between the two amps ?
Nope the speakers are neutral. It's just how the amp is. It just elevates the mids slightly. Nothing to worry here.

MaSh
 
Thanks for detailed post. I guess I can use height 1 terminal of my AVR for bi amp. No need to have another amp. Of course that would still be sharing the same power supply but a dedicated channel for LF and MFs. Please correct me if I am thinking out of the way.

I'm not familiar with your receiver. H1 must be the speakers fixed to the ceiling in the front. I had a quick look at the user manual and could not figure out how the levels of the front H1 speakers are set. Or is it set automatically with the surround setup test procedure. If so I don't know how you will set this to be the same as the main front speakers.
 
I'm not familiar with your receiver. H1 must be the speakers fixed to the ceiling in the front. I had a quick look at the user manual and could not figure out how the levels of the front H1 speakers are set. Or is it set automatically with the surround setup test procedure. If so I don't know how you will set this to be the same as the main front speakers.
I am using my AVR just as 2.1 system and planning to bi amp the fronts using the spare H1 channels.
 
I had bi-amped my fronts. No day and night difference. Just extra cables laying around which my wife was not very happy about. So, back to regular. Please also let me tell you that i am a regualar joe and don"t have too keen a musical ear.
 
I tried bi-amping as well. Mid/HF via Marantz IA; LF via monoblocks.
I couldn't hear any difference actually. May be I have lead ears :)

@Vivek Batra
In your case you can explore the AVR's biamp support.
It will be all same signature amplification.

Cheers,
Raghu
 
So I am now going to try the bi amping tonight. Denon manual says it's possible with 5.1 and 7.1 configuration. If I go with 5.1 then height 1 terminals would double as bi amp terminals for front left and right speakers respectively.

But there is no information on whether the height 1 terminal should go to speaker LF or HF terminal. Nothing is mentioned on the amp or in the manual.

Can I connect the main left right terminals of the amp to the HF terminals of speakers and height 1 left right terminals to speaker LF terminals?

Kindly suggest, Hope it's all safe to do this?

Thanks.
 
Use main speaker out to LF
Spare speaker out to HF
Make sure the plate on speaker terminal is out.
Always switch off equipment between experiments.
Double/triple check before turning on

Good luck!!
Cheers,
Raghu
 
Use main speaker out to LF
Spare speaker out to HF
Make sure the plate on speaker terminal is out.
Always switch off equipment between experiments.
Double/triple check before turning on

Good luck!!
Cheers,
Raghu
Thanks Raghu. Is it a practice or some rule of thumb?
 
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