I think i got lucky then
. Both the marantz pm6006 and kef q350s were blind purchases and they are a match made in heaven! Every person who's come across this combo, audiophile or not (mostly not ), has really loved the sound!
Bookshelf recommendation please
- Thread starter SSlovesmusic
- Start date
. Both the marantz pm6006 and kef q350s were blind purchases and they are a match made in heaven! Every person who's come across this combo, audiophile or not (mostly not ), has really loved the sound!
They Will Sound the Same to The Another set of Mics and Analyzing Softwares, not to human ears. For instance, human ears are 2 Mics separated by a variable distance , With Varied analyzing capacity to begin with. Best of the Mics try to simulate (Assume) human ears as true as Technically possible. ( Simulate is the key word here).
Nobody buys speakers to listen to 1khz mono tone, in reality Our source material isn't that great to begin with, either its Old, poorly recorded or mastered. Many a times we don't want it to be close to the source material. We want a speaker (for casual listening) to sound Relatively appealing irrespective of the Quality of the source. We want it to present beautiful sound even though the source may not be that great, quality of amplification isn't great or our room isn't great.
I wish, it were that simple, considering the limitations associated with measuring equipment. if I were to buy without listening, I'd go with the opinion of experienced audiophile (Whom I know personally and vice versa) over measured parameters.
Well Filter, Distortion whatever you call , it doesn't matter, most of Senior Audiophiles know what Kind of sound They are looking for. There's no speaker without a distortion, box itself is a distortion according to many. So you can call audiophiles as distortion experts, some are tube distortion experts, vinyl distortion experts, cable distortion experts and so on. Some Distortion experts with DIY skills, who understand the limitations of mic/analyzing software, but Know how to use them effectively to bring A consistently reproducible distortion ; design speakers and audio hardware ( audio gurus) and market it to other Lesser distortion experts.
Let me rephrase the OPs question,
With 50k budget is there a consensus on most appealing speaker distortion to buy? He's thinking whether Qacoustics 3030i Distortion, Wharfedale 11.2 Distortion or Mission type of Distortion will be good?
I suggested that Going by his expectations & my experience , B&W kind of distortion should suit him, if the budget doesn't permit Him buying The B&W type of distortion ; he should Consider buying The Castle knight 2 or Elac type of Distortion. Most other FMs feel Kef Q series type of Distortion should be Given the topmost preference. Whichever it is , the distortion preference should be heard before making a buying decision.
Since, now we're clear about the original question, we shouldn't digress further and help the OP with making a informed decision.
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Also Luckily you didn't go by mic /measured parameters, Instead you went with your ears. Because Coaxial Speakers fare badly When it comes to measurementsI think i got lucky then
Passive_audio_enthusiast
Well-Known Member
Stretch more and get the r3 instead. Ls 50 at european price is a very good value though. Its under 55k in european stores now.i haven’t heard anything from kef apart from the q350. The ls50s are sort of a reference speaker for the price range for the past 9 years or so from what ive seen. Somehow, My ears just don’t seem to pick up the ?harshness? in the treble in kefs (in my case, just the one kef).
That’s a long passage full of ignorance of facts. Just read a little more about Floyd Tooles book on loudspeaker design.
Simplified as : flat in anechoic chamber / harman target in real room.
state of the art measuring system used by companies to measure speakers
Near Field Measurement
I don’t know what that would give as result more than a check to see if any distortion is present. anyway Klippel measures more than that. about simulating human ear: yes you are right about simulating 100 percent individual ears, unless someone does a 3D scan of our individual heads, our ear structure won’t be possible to replicate.Therefore the average HRTF is considered here. That’s not a blind average but after careful studies measuring large sample of human heads. And that’s the industrial standard. There are so many articles about binaural hearing and measurements out there giving much more info about this.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-related_transfer_function
as per your logic, your ear and his ear is differnent. If results replicated by mics cannot cannot simulate his head,on what basis can we understand how his ear shape and hearing ability is?
This is video of how we hear
This is how we perceive sound object in space
Sound localization - Wikipedia
This explains hear multiple instruMents in a mix separately at the same time without getting mixed up:
Auditory masking - Wikipedia
Listening to experienced audiophools who totally ignore the science is total ignorance. If you cannot understand a speakers sound from measurments, it doesn’t mean the measurements don’t convey the whole story but sometimes it’s us who do not understand how to read through the measurements and correlate them to how we hear. It’s not magic
thats quite the stretch. Hopefully someday.
Whoa! Thats a steal deal! Yes, the KEFs are overpriced online but you can get it for almost 10k less if you speak directly to dealers. I haven’t heard any dynaudios yet and the only time i heard B&Ws was around 12 years back. Though, I don’t remember the model (they were floorstanders), they sounded incredible (ive never heard pink floyd sound better).
D
Deleted member 15865
Guest
Can we remain respectful while differing and avoid using derogatory labels?
Passive_audio_enthusiast
Well-Known Member
Sorry, Ok will replace it with audiophiles hereafter.
@SSlovesmusic
If you are still following this thread:
- ignore the friendly banter on the thread
- there are 2 camps and seldom do they agree on certain aspects of sound reproduction
- focus on your hunt
- persuade yourself to audition some of the brands listed/suggested
- even if it is not the exact same model, but same series, it'll give you an idea of the general sound signature
- measurements are good reference points, but nothing substitutes an audition
- a well measured speaker may not appeal to your ears
- a good sounding speaker may not measure well
Good luck!!
Cheers,
Raghu
If you are still following this thread:
- ignore the friendly banter on the thread
- there are 2 camps and seldom do they agree on certain aspects of sound reproduction
- focus on your hunt
- persuade yourself to audition some of the brands listed/suggested
- even if it is not the exact same model, but same series, it'll give you an idea of the general sound signature
- measurements are good reference points, but nothing substitutes an audition
- a well measured speaker may not appeal to your ears
- a good sounding speaker may not measure well
Good luck!!
Cheers,
Raghu
Yogesh
Well-Known Member
With your budget you can even get QA Concept 20, KEF q350, Dali Oberon 3 etc. Demo them and let your ears decide.
prateekatasniya
Well-Known Member
Flat anechoic frequency response and good, wide directivity is the quality of a top notch speaker.
This guarantees superlative audio quality for both movies and music..
Room and acoustics matters.
Bass equalization matters.
Amplification matters.
This guarantees superlative audio quality for both movies and music..
Room and acoustics matters.
Bass equalization matters.
Amplification matters.
prateekatasniya
Well-Known Member
Yes @Passive_audio_enthusiast
Music is art..
The artist produces the music on speakers which are developed based on flat anechoic response and good directivity.
These artists Feel really sad when their music is played back on speakers which color the sound which attenuate certain frequencies and accentuate certain frequencies.
I respect the artist and the amount of hard work they put into creating the art..
Music is art..
The artist produces the music on speakers which are developed based on flat anechoic response and good directivity.
These artists Feel really sad when their music is played back on speakers which color the sound which attenuate certain frequencies and accentuate certain frequencies.
I respect the artist and the amount of hard work they put into creating the art..
D
Deleted member 15865
Guest
Yes @Passive_audio_enthusiast
Music is art..
The artist produces the music on speakers which are developed based on flat anechoic response and good directivity.
These artists Feel really sad when their music is played back on speakers which color the sound which attenuate certain frequencies and accentuate certain frequencies.
I respect the artist and the amount of hard work they put into creating the art..
While there’s some truth in what you say, it’s not the entire truth. Practically speaking, even the live audience doesn’t hear the artist directly but through the auditorium audio system and acoustics. Artists use monitors to get live feedback and adjust their singing accordingly to sound good to the audience. Likewise artists adjust even for playback systems. For example in the past, artists sung at high pitch to compensate for the radio’s noise... today they sing/play to sound well on personal audio systems and so on. I doubt seasoned artists expect their audience to listen through flat response playback systems.
I think the sound engineer's job is to make sure that the content is enjoyable on:
- a wide variety of media (LP, CD, Tapes, etc)
- a wide variety of transmission channels (Radio, Streaming, etc)
The Artists usually are happy if their creativity reaches the maximum number of people.
I doubt if artists and sound engineers care about the playback equipment/settings at end-user.
It is only on forums, that we fuss about these things.
Eg. My family members just listen to music wherever they can and however they can
Cheers,
Raghu
Hahaha.. You're explaining working of inner ear to a medical professional, since I'm not into ENT speciality, I don't mind refreshing my knowledge.
Thanks for ascertaining that Mics cannot faithfully stimulate the Ear, then approximation, averages etc are to fill the void, but the basic premise becomes less reliable.
I was expecting that you'd end up with Floyd, because that book is like, Last resort. That's already on my list of books to read, but since it's not going to change how I perceive audio ( because listening is a acquired /learned skill over period of years), I'm not in a hurry. Also there's lots of counter to Floyd's conclusions.
You should read this concise discussion pertaining to the topic of our discussion based on Floyd's observations.
Audioholics Ears vs Mic
Brief conclusion from the article...
Elephant in the Room - which is better?
Elephant in the RoomHaving talked about measurement microphones, let’s address the elephant I’ve let into the room. The article set out to discuss the accuracy of our hearing vs that of a microphone to decide once and for all which is more accurate. I made the point that we can’t really discuss accuracy without creating a point of reference, and my point of reference is the faithful reproduction of the real event (even if that “real” event is an artificial creation). It becomes clear then that our hearing is really all that matters. We could walk away now without ever addressing the lowly measurement microphone, but that provides a problem. How could I justify my own frequent use of a microphone for optimizing a sound reproduction system, along with that of most sound engineers, acoustical scientists, and technicians? Clearly, a microphone must provide some kind of accuracy for which our ears cannot?
Answering this question really begs another question, why do we measure at all? Audioholics has previously written a great article on exactly this subject - Why we measure audio. First and foremost, scientists and engineers use measurements as a means to objectively characterize a speaker. When it comes to engineering a speaker, this is a valuable tool. However, without a point of reference, even that would be of little use.
I think that's not what a really scientifically oriented person would write ( Real knowledge should make a person humble & open, not arrogant and closed), this kind of intellectual Arrogance will get you nowhere. I respect your opinion, and agree that we disagree.
BTW, Its not that I don't look into measurements, in fact I do more often , but I never base my buying decision solely on measurements. It's just that, We trust our ears more. I think if something sounds good, probably we should search for scientific evidence on why it is so by measurements, not the other way around.
Well put, is it so much hard to fathom by apparently more inquisitive minds?
by the way the review article from which this graph is represented here, has wholeheartedly recommended b&w 606 speakers.
What kind of logic is that? I should suppress & hurt my feelings and listen to a subjectively flat, lifeless sound, just to please the artists?? Again you're bringing subjective preference of recording artists to support your bias towards objective data in decision making? Unbelievable!
D
Deleted member 15865
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Simple thing. Have you seen singers throw their head back (or take the mic away from their mouth) when they raise their volume to high levels in the dynamic portions of the song? Good singers are always aware of the recording and playback and how that affects what the listener gets to hear. A part of Jagjit Singh’s success is attributable to how the elaborate orchestration formed a nice soundstage and listener experience. Many New age and ambient music makers create and record music in ways that leverages the immersive and surround effects headphones/IEMs provide.
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superczar
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On a lighter note, trusting our ears can be a bit dicey depending on the amount of alcohol in the bloodstream.
I once Heard the most musical reproduction of the division bell on my yamaha outdoor dabba speakers.
It was around 3am with a bottle of scotch lying empty between me and a friend who had been debating metaphysics and astrology for the last 4 hours
I once Heard the most musical reproduction of the division bell on my yamaha outdoor dabba speakers.
It was around 3am with a bottle of scotch lying empty between me and a friend who had been debating metaphysics and astrology for the last 4 hours
prateekatasniya
Well-Known Member
Delete
prateekatasniya
Well-Known Member
They just shared speaker data.. didn't comment about it..
no knowledgeable audio person will recommend that speaker..
Just like evidence matters in medicine.. Which is based on research..
Similarily audio is based on research..
The Marantz PM7000N offers big, spacious and insightful sound, class-leading clarity and a solid streaming platform in a award winning package.
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