Don't waste your money on high-priced HDMI cable

Problems can occur with badly-made anythings!

As I said before, we, the hifi-buying community, with our progress through more expensive (and probably often genuinely better) speaker cables and interconnects have set ourselves up good and proper. We have mentally conditioned ourselves.

In this country, at least, it would probably be a lot better for our health, safety and continued musical pleasure, if we translated that into a bit more concern for our house wiring, rather than fussing over digital cables!
I agree with you.. However to continue with the discussion, speaker wires are something I have always worried about (again, I would test different ones and will opt for the ones which are the cheapest to give me the most acceptable sound).. Other than that, the high bandwidth Analog Video makes a lot of difference with cable quality.. I have hardly seen much difference in quality using cheap RCA cables for analog audio as well (line level or headphone amps). Again, here if you connect Headphones to a cheap cable, its noticeably bad sounding!

Gist - Other than Analog Video (high bandwidth) and Speaker wires (especially on a low damping factor amp supporting high impedance speakers and very limited current carrying capacity), even analog audio cables do not make the sound quality significantly better on a better cable! In digital world, as loss and noise in analog voltage will most probably still not result in an error, it never matters UNLESS we get errors (drop or jitter in audio or pixel drops or blockiness/pixellation or freezing on video).

Digital guys will never understand how much good analogue/tube/vinyl sounds. They worry about minute clock jitters and we enjoy sweet sweet 2nd harmonic distortions of tubes. So in a way we are forgiving, unbiased, practical, down to earth, music lovers. :D
I definitely vouch for DIGITAL AUDIO due to it extended, ACCURATE frequency range, lowest noise floor, extremely low THD (mostly from source) and EXTENDED DYNAMIC RANGE! No comparison to what was available earlier...

I agree that a bit of second harmonic distortion adds to the "sharpness" and the high pitch sound signature of those components, however they can never match the accuracy and finesse of digital audio.

For those who wish to continue this thread, here is what a physicist (not me)is saying:

cheers.
murali

How often have you heard this?
Its digital, so its 1s and 0s. That means there cant be any errors or distortion. You either get the signal perfectly or you dont.

For someone who knows little about electronic systems, this would sound perfectly logical and true. In reality its a rather nave way of thinking and it completely over simplifies the complexity of the world (and of physics). To show you why this statement is a lie, we need to go slightly into electro-magnetic physics. Dont worry, not too much, but just enough so that we can see how digital transmission, and in particular, a thing called channel coding (and digital coding in general) works.

The Digital Signal
The digital signal is often classified as an array of 1s and 0s. This is true in the logic sense we represent them in 1s and 0s. However theyre merely symbols. We could easily represent them as Xs and Ys or apples and oranges. In the real world, the digital signal is encoded and transmitted as a variety of alternating bits. This is usually a high and low signal. The signal is always encoded to minimise the probability of error for a given channel at its signal power limit. With all signals, there is a chance of noise (because, as you would of course know, anything in the real world is essential analogue, not digital).

Bandwidth
When we picture the transmission of a digital signal, we usually think of it in the way of the following:




Theorical Digital Signal
This is true in theory, and for higher level applications such as computer programs, controllers, etc. this is enough. In real life, the same digital signal (especially during transmission) looks more like this:


Real Life Digital Signal
Why is this? Because unfortunately the real world isnt as simple as on and off or high and low. Almost every communication channel (e.g. a cable, optical system, radio transmission) has a finite bandwidth. What is bandwidth? Thats the maximum speed that we can transmit data. I.e. theres a limit to how fast we can switch from 0 to 1 or 1 to 0. When we put a signal with more bandwidth than the channel can handle, the signal will not come out the same shape. How differently the shape changes depends on the nature of the system and the signal. However, take it from me that when you put in a perfectly square digital signal like that of the first diagram, youre most likely to get a real life signal like the second diagram.

The Bandwidth vs Cost Tradeoff
Engineering is often more about compromises than anything else. While we can build every network, cable, radio transmission mast with a huge amount of power to increase their bandwidth, it is not efficient. Generally theres an acceptable number of errors we can take for a particular signal. For example, most people would be satisfied with a TV signal that works 97% of the time for 97% of the population. To achieve the extra 3% coverage, by nature, may cost double the investment in resources. Hence, it is generally not worth spending so much money to get perfection.

A digital signal, therefore, is usually designed to be optimised in terms of resources used. A good designer of a product would attempt to use the least amount of resources to achieve a satisfactory outcome. So if we talk about bandwidth, it would mean that we would use the minimum bandwidth to still achieve signal recognition to a satisfactory level.

The Eye Diagram
Heres a concept that may interest those with a deeper understanding of probability and physics. When we pass a digital signal into a bandlimited channel, the signal is distorted. The receiver system will attempt to guess what the transmitted signal is. Lets use a numerical scale where -1 is 0? and 1 is 1?. How would the system guess? Simple: if the received signal is more than 0, we assume the transmitted signal is 1?. Otherwise if its any negative number, we assume the original transmitted level was -1, and the transmitted signal was 0?.

So in this instance, as long as no signal is distorted to the point where the signal crosses 0, we will still get an error free transmission.

The eye diagram is a diagram where multiple digital bit signals are laid upon one another. We can then see the variance in signal levels that occur to each bit, and see where they vary. The eye is the gap between the 1 and the 0. The gap therefore needs to exist in order for the receiver to be able to detect whether a signal is 1 or 0.


Eye Diagram
Here we have an eye diagram. We can see the most probable bit locations as the darkest areas. The eye is the two gaps which is formed by the two bit signals shown. As the signal becomes more distorted, the width of the signals increase (probability of error increases) and the eye starts to close. The point where the eye is completely closed is the point where the digital signal is distorted to the point of pure noise (no useful information can be extracted).

Most systems are designed with eye diagrams similar to that above. Theres little chance of error. However, errors still occur. We can still see a few bits getting rather close the center of the eye. These are the bits which are likely to cause error bits.

What Does All This Mean?
This means that any commercial product (i.e. a product designed to make money) will be designed to optimise for cost as well as performance. If we talk about say, a HDMI cable, we would expect that any cable more than a very short length will expect to have a more than negligible probability of error. Generally speaking, with most digital signals theres always a chance of error. When an error occurs, it doesnt mean that you wont get a signal at all. It just means that theres an error. These could be single bit errors which may be visible and uncorrected, or may be corrected depending on the mechanism. However errors exist, even though you may not know about them. Digital is far from perfect.

Going back to the HDMI cable, lets assume that the cable is now quite long. This means that the bandwidth is reduced. Performance is reduced because bandwidth is reduced and more errors can now occur. A badly made HDMI cable therefore shows much more significant errors. (People say that digital signals are perfect, yet its no secret that long HDMI cables can have problems. Why doesnt anyone question this?)

Channel Coding
Heres more proof that digital is not perfect. Channel coding is a study of the logics behind digital transmission. How do we best encode digital signals to ensure that the transmission has the best probability of success, and uses the least resources?

Channel coding exists everywhere. Lets talk about one common place you might see this in action your CDs. Most people think about CDs as the forementioned perfect and distortion free transmission. But think about it: tiny specs of dust, scratches, imperfections exist on every CD. The bits recorded on a CD are also tiny, and a laser will have no chance in telling a piece of dust for something else. This means that no CD will ever play without distortion at the bit level. I bet most people dont know this fact.

However, theres good reason why you may have not known about this. The guys who made the CD, Blu Ray, HDMI, etc. were pretty smart. They used a number of methods of digital transmission called channel coding. In a CD, this consisted of interweaving bits of information, optimising the type of transmitted information, and using checking bits to ensure that when errors did occur, there was a high chance that it was corrected and/or a close guess was used.

How does this work? There are a whole heap of methods they use and I wont even scratch the surface. But let me demonstrate onevery basically. Lets take for example, a number we need to transmit over a channel. Lets say 17. In binary, 17 is 10001. Lets assume a one bit error occurs. Because there are 5 digits, we could get 5 possible errors 10000, 10011, 10101, 11001, 00001. Notice what these numbers equal: 16, 19, 21, 25, 1. A 1 bit error could result in a slight distortion (16 instead of 17), or a huge distortion (1 instead of 17). In fact, if transmitting numbers in this way, the magnitude of distortion varies with the number of digits transmitted. If we transmit a 256 bit number, we could get a massive error due to just one bit being incorrect.

The engineers behind this technology realised this and decided that it was better to encode bits which were close together (read about Hamming distance). What they did was formulate a number of bit sequences which represented the transmitted data, where the sequences were different in the same way that the data was different. For example, lets arbitrarily represent 16 as 1011, 17 as 1001 and 18 as 0001. Notice that the difference between 17 and either 16 or 18 is 1 bit, and the difference between 16 and 18 is two bits. They are of the same difference as that between the numbers themselves.

What does this mean?
This means that when a spec of dust distorts a bit on a CD, it may mean that instead of 25355, the CD reads 25356. During a track, you will probably not be able to hear this, but the distortion will occur much like analogue distortion will occur. Digital simply means that there is less chance of this happening.

Digital is undoubted much better than analogue in many ways, and without it we would not live in the same world that we do today. However, the technology behind digital is much more analogue than you think. Digital is far from perfect dont assume that just because something is digital, it would be distortion free.
Murli - no offence intended... however you have gone back to square one. The explanation you gave, most of us already know and have discussed in pieces here... You are still not getting the gist - higher quality cable can only reduce the possibility of an error as per YOUR EXPLANATION above, however if you don't see any error, you could safely consider the output as error free even from a Rs.100 HDMI cable (for both audio and video).
 
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As mentioned earlier I have no technical knowledge so I think I can only post thinking logically and with some reasoning. So putting forward four points as below...

(1) The Physicist : "This is usually a high and low signal. The signal is always encoded to minimise the probability of error for a given channel at its signal power limit. With all signals, there is a chance of noise (because, as you would of course know, anything in the real world is essential analogue, not digital)."

Above is not true.
Copy pasting from the link : Noise also adds extra random information to digital signals. However, this noise is usually lower in amplitude than the amplitude of the ON states. As a result, the electronics in the amplifiers can ignore the noise and it does not get passed along. This means that the quality of the signal is maintained, which is one reason why television and radio broadcasters are gradually changing from analogue to digital transmissions.
The link : BBC - GCSE Bitesize: Analogue v digital

(2) The physicist has very cleverly put his arguments of broadband and speed. But it will only matter for future HDMI cables when resolution of audio & video will be massively increased. Till then we are safe with $10 cables.

(3) For ordinary people like me, see this audio myth video...
http://www.hifivision.com/av-lounge/17372-audio-myths-workshop-video.html
and take this optical illusion test...

optical%20illusion.jpg

Colour of A and B are same. If you dont believe take some photo editing software, copy area around A and move it over to B. If we can't differentiate between two grey shades how can we measure difference between two picture quality separated over time of moving pictures?

(4) Now those who can hear 0.02 % THD and see few missing bits in moving pictures (which I think lasts for only 60 frames per second for LCD) should be appreciated and respected for the gift they have.


Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking;
Leo Tolstoy
 
I definitely vouch for DIGITAL AUDIO due to it extended, ACCURATE frequency range, lowest noise floor, extremely low THD (mostly from source) and EXTENDED DYNAMIC RANGE! No comparison to what was available earlier...
I agree with you bro. But I love vinyls and analogue sound. :)
Regards
 
I agree with you bro. But I love vinyls and analogue sound. :)
Regards
I certainly understand that... Even I have VERY fond memories of Vinyls... Even those mono "box" Vinyl players were very fascinating to listen and sounded excellent especially as compared to audio cassettes (actually I agree that there is no comparison... sound of Vinyl is very unique in nature due to very emphasized acoustic signature in those recordings)... Even looking at a Vinyl gives me exciting goose bumps the way they play at different RPMs with slightly bent surface and as you could see the grooves on the surface which translate to music and can pick and move the head to any portion to play that track or part of the track... and looking at the surface you know how many tracks and their length and total length... WOW I went to the yesteryears when I was so much fascinated about them :)
 
and take this optical illusion test...

optical%20illusion.jpg
[/SIZE]

Incredible!

Audiophiles' subjective judgement is even less trustworthy as it's a proven fact that hearing ability starts deteriorating at around age 18 and an average 40 year old has considerable hearing impairment.
 
I certainly understand that... Even I have VERY fond memories of Vinyls... Even those mono "box" Vinyl players were very fascinating to listen and sounded excellent especially as compared to audio cassettes (actually I agree that there is no comparison... sound of Vinyl is very unique in nature due to very emphasized acoustic signature in those recordings)... Even looking at a Vinyl gives me exciting goose bumps the way they play at different RPMs with slightly bent surface and as you could see the grooves on the surface which translate to music and can pick and move the head to any portion to play that track or part of the track... and looking at the surface you know how many tracks and their length and total length... WOW I went to the yesteryears when I was so much fascinated about them :)

hehe - !:lol:-

ehm! - i know! - wow and rumble - they excite your senses? - hehe -!
 
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hehe -!:lol:-

ehm! - i know! - wow and rumble - they excite your senses? - hehe - !
Haha, yes they did when I was a KID :D Still can picture them very well... Wish they sounded without those spikes, noise and distortion :)
 
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But irony is...
when one's ears were sensitive, he/she listened to vinyls and when Presbycusis sets in he/she listens to SACDs.
shrug.gif
 
(1) The Physicist : "This is usually a high and low signal. The signal is always encoded to minimise the probability of error for a given channel at its signal power limit. With all signals, there is a chance of noise (because, as you would of course know, anything in the real world is essential analogue, not digital)."

Above is not true.
Copy pasting from the link : Noise also adds extra random information to digital signals. However, this noise is usually lower in amplitude than the amplitude of the ON states. As a result, the electronics in the amplifiers can ignore the noise and it does not get passed along. This means that the quality of the signal is maintained, which is one reason why television and radio broadcasters are gradually changing from analogue to digital transmissions.
The link : BBC - GCSE Bitesize: Analogue v digital

There is a inherent shortcoming in this argument. Please remember a digital signal is sent as a electrical current and the differences between 0s and 1s is measured by variation in the current. A noise could actually alter this variation completely. When this happens there is a change in the data that lands at the receiving end. The receiver, as there is no feedback to the transmitter, will interpret the new data using it's own internal logic.

I think what many of us have been trying to say is the better cables gives you comfort of ensuring that data reaches the other end of a digital transmission with the received data being as close in duplication as the original data.

It is an accepted fact that long lengths of HDMI cables do have issues. The same issues exists in shorter cables. Shorter lengths may not make as much obvious difference to the eye to the ear as the disturbances are smaller. As the length increases, the disturbances start increasing in percentage allowing you to see and hear the noise easily. I have seen colors of video completely changing in 5 meters lengths. In two cases, the screen was completely green. The issues disappeared when I installed a good cable.

Obviously what you want to use is your option. When you are spending 40-100K on a HT system at the minimum, it does make sense to see that all parts of the system give you the confidence to enjoy your HT system without worries.

Before you all jump in arguing, please remember, this is my choice.

Cheers
 
I think what many of us have been trying to say is the better cables gives you comfort of ensuring that data reaches the other end of a digital transmission with the received data being as close in duplication as the original data.
And what the rest of us are trying to say is that it is the protocol that does this.

Venkat, your posts are full of assertions of what gives you confidence or makes you feel comfortable. That's fine. I once spent 100 UK pounds on a mains cable to make myself feel comfortable (I can't, now, recommend it on any other grounds!). It's just that confidence and comfort are not technical things.

A bad, or broken, cable, of any kind, at any price is simply bad or broken.
 
And what the rest of us are trying to say is that it is the protocol that does this.

A bad, or broken, cable, of any kind, at any price is simply bad or broken.

Hi Thad,

It seems to me that there are two contradictions in your post on the subject. You seem to be saying the protocol (which I take to mean the HDMI technical standard?) ensures data is transmitted perfectly, yet you end with the possibility of there being bad cables. That's a clear contradiction since if the protocol ensured pure data transmission there would be no bad/broken cables of any kind!

Venkat seems to be saying inspite of a standard protocol, there exists the possibility of bad cables. Which is what the last line in your post says.

I tend to agree with Venkat and I'd personally watch out for cable differences, especially over longer lengths. I wouldn't spend too much though on a shorter length HDMI cables. That's my take out from what everyone has been discussing and the research I've done.

Regards

Edit: I think Venkat first para is technical Thad so you're not being really fair in asserting that his post was devoid of technical reasons. I mean variation in current changing is a technical reason right? :)
 
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Take a pair of scissors to a cable and no protocol can save the data. That's extreme, but there's also bends and twists and damage of one sort or another. None of this is price dependent. price does not even rule out the possibility of manufacturing faults. As I mentioned above, my experience of buying ethernet cables for work was that there was a failure rate, but it did not go up when I decided to spend less. Of course, yes, there is the possibility of bad cables. Of course, also, it is easier to deal with them when you are buying by the dozen, which we do not do for any of our home applications.

Mind you, the only instance I can think of a home cable failing was an optical toslink, where the unit was pushed back against the wall, and the cable (not expected to) couldn't take it.

My view of "technical" is not necessarily the same as Venkat's! :)
 
I would want the folks arguing out here to seek out state of the art systems in video or audio and test out different cables in them (blind or whatever) and see/hear the differences for yourselves ! Given the ambiguous nature of hi-end audio/video, snake oil vendors abound. But this does not mean that there are no valid endeavors in state of the art cabling in power, digital or analogue . Test them out your selves and let us know the results ! The proof of the pudding is only in the eating.

Most of time I have seen the folks who argue on the internet are folks who do not have such experience. Most are internet scientists and arm chair theorists ! Eventually, when they come into contact with such devices and live with them for a while, they start to understand the importance of state of the art accessories for audio/video.

In 99 percent of the cases when folks start spending quality time with SOTA gear, I have seen cynical techies doing a 360 degree turnaround when it comes to these things !

Then, there are some folks who have spent time with SOTA gear and cannot hear / see any differences. Such folks are very lucky. I envy them.
 
Take a pair of scissors to a cable and no protocol can save the data. That's extreme, but there's also bends and twists and damage of one sort or another. None of this is price dependent.

Well I guess this is where the two camps will see differences. All cables are the same. versus Expensive cables are more well made and there are lesser chances for the current variations to happen.

On that note I withdraw to listen to some good ole analog tonite, Eddy Grant, Queen, Journey, Blondie, Dire Straits :licklips:
 
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