Don't waste your money on high-priced HDMI cable

[reignofchaos]

analog out from BDP will also give lossless audio.

RoC - why is HDMI a bad choice for 2 channel digital signal?

Most bluray players including the oppo have poor analog circuitry - analog out is the last thing you'd wanna use if you care about audio.

Why HDMI is bad for audio - googling will tell. There's a really nice article from Ayre why HDMI is such a bad interface.

 

[anm]

I am too considering spending high amount of money on HDMI cable - based on strong recommendation from someone I trust. However, I am myself not convinced how bad one cable can be from other. Since this has to go inside the ceiling, I may not be able to change it easily, without some civil work.

 

[anm]

Most bluray players including the oppo have poor analog circuitry

compared to what? mid range receivers or high end receivers?

 

[vraned]

I'm sure there are a lot of articles (and opinions as in this forum) as to why HDMI is good for video and not for audio. To my ears, 2.0 audio thru HDMI on my BDP sounds much better than an RCA connection on a CD player, but hey, its my ears!

So my question is, if I connect use a coaxial instead of HDMI for 2.0 stereo will the difference be that obvious? Will I be able to slap myself on my forehead and say how could I not use coaxial all these days? I'm not sure of that.

Most bluray players including the oppo have poor analog circuitry - analog out is the last thing you'd wanna use if you care about audio.

Why HDMI is bad for audio - googling will tell. There's a really nice article from Ayre why HDMI is such a bad interface.

 

[reignofchaos]

compared to what? mid range receivers or high end receivers?

Mid range receivers should do. A Denon 1911 or something similar should easily outperform an Oppo's analog. Again - the best judge would be someone having a mid range receiver and an oppo bluray disc player.

I'm sure there are a lot of articles (and opinions as in this forum) as to why HDMI is good for video and not for audio. To my ears, 2.0 audio thru HDMI on my BDP sounds much better than an RCA connection on a CD player, but hey, its my ears!

So my question is, if I connect use a coaxial instead of HDMI for 2.0 stereo will the difference be that obvious? Will I be able to slap myself on my forehead and say how could I not use coaxial all these days? I'm not sure of that.

Depends on what CD Player and what BD Player and what receiver. You'll hardly see a difference between HDMI and coaxial unless the rest of the chain is revealing enough.

 

[gobble]

I'm sure there are a lot of articles (and opinions as in this forum) as to why HDMI is good for video and not for audio. To my ears, 2.0 audio thru HDMI on my BDP sounds much better than an RCA connection on a CD player, but hey, its my ears!

So my question is, if I connect use a coaxial instead of HDMI for 2.0 stereo will the difference be that obvious? Will I be able to slap myself on my forehead and say how could I not use coaxial all these days? I'm not sure of that.

I did an A/B comparison over last 7 - 8 days with coax out, the Oppo BD-80 beats the Marantz CD6002 as a transport. There is more blackness around the music and the bass is more deep. The DAC in the Marantz beats the Oppo though.

So that could explain why your hdmi audio sounds better than RCA from a CDP.

--G0bble

 

[manoj.p]

Most bluray players including the oppo have poor analog circuitry - analog out is the last thing you'd wanna use if you care about audio.

Have to disagree here. Oppo has a very good analog stage. It's not poor by any means.

Why HDMI is bad for audio - googling will tell. There's a really nice article from Ayre why HDMI is such a bad interface.

HDMI bad for audio - if we consider that, then what's the other alternative which is better than that? co-ax? At the moment, HDMI is the only one which can transmit lossless, 7.1 channel audio. Co-ax, Optical etc does not come close if you compare the bandwidth available. As for ayre, they re-badge the $500 oppo and sell it for $10000 or so. He has to differentiate it somewhere and he finds the faults where it cannot be easily measured or distinguished- The audio jitter.

Mid range receivers should do. A Denon 1911 or something similar should easily outperform an Oppo's analog. Again - the best judge would be someone having a mid range receiver and an oppo bluray disc player.

If you compare just the analog section, then Oppo's is definitely better than Denon 1911 or any other mid level avr. Most here and at other forums will agree.

 

[cricfansd]

Most bluray players including the oppo have poor analog circuitry - analog out is the last thing you'd wanna use if you care about audio.

And you talk like someone who reads product brochure more than technical literature.
May be you can try it sometime.
OPPO BDP-93, BDP-93NE (NuForce Edition), and BDP-95 Universal 3D Blu-ray Players

 

[vraned]

I have a Sony S380 BDP with an Onkyo NR609, and Kef Q300 bookshelf speakers. I use this setup for 2.0 stereo as well (apart from 5.1 HT), and run CD/SACDs from the BDP. The audio sounds really good (connection via the stock HDMI cable).

Now if HDMI is "bad" for audio, then what is significantly better? Coax? If I get a dedicated CDP and a Integ amp with a coax connection (which audiophiles always recommend), will the difference be so significant that any "lay" man can say this sounds significantly better in orders of magnitude? Is it as significant as the difference we see between using a composite video cable (yellow) and an HDMI?

Depends on what CD Player and what BD Player and what receiver. You'll hardly see a difference between HDMI and coaxial unless the rest of the chain is revealing enough.

 

[reignofchaos]

I have a Sony S380 BDP with an Onkyo NR609, and Kef Q300 bookshelf speakers. I use this setup for 2.0 stereo as well (apart from 5.1 HT), and run CD/SACDs from the BDP. The audio sounds really good (connection via the stock HDMI cable).

Now if HDMI is "bad" for audio, then what is significantly better? Coax? If I get a dedicated CDP and a Integ amp with a coax connection (which audiophiles always recommend), will the difference be so significant that any "lay" man can say this sounds significantly better in orders of magnitude? Is it as significant as the difference we see between using a composite video cable (yellow) and an HDMI?

If you want better sound, best get an external dac - that will be the best bang for the buck.

 

[reignofchaos]

Have to disagree here. Oppo has a very good analog stage. It's not poor by any means.

HDMI bad for audio - if we consider that, then what's the other alternative which is better than that? co-ax? At the moment, HDMI is the only one which can transmit lossless, 7.1 channel audio. Co-ax, Optical etc does not come close if you compare the bandwidth available. As for ayre, they re-badge the $500 oppo and sell it for $10000 or so. He has to differentiate it somewhere and he finds the faults where it cannot be easily measured or distinguished- The audio jitter.

If you compare just the analog section, then Oppo's is definitely better than Denon 1911 or any other mid level avr. Most here and at other forums will agree.

Having heard the basic BD83, I didn't find its analog performance anything spectacular for 500$. Any basic CD player will sound better via analog as gobble has mentioned earlier.

HDMI is fine for multichannel audio. However because there is no dedicated clock for audio signals, it is a problem. Use of any PLL means huge jitter. No one is denying that it is the highest bandwidth interface and the only option for multichannel audio. However for stereo, there are better options.

Also the Ayre universal player is a complete rework of the oppo with totally different analog output stages and power supplies. Its not a badge job like the others. I've heard a few Ayre CD players and while they are not the best I've heard, they are not that bad either.

And you talk like someone who reads product brochure more than technical literature.
May be you can try it sometime.
OPPO BDP-93, BDP-93NE (NuForce Edition), and BDP-95 Universal 3D Blu-ray Players

As I mentioned earlier, the BDP-83's stereo performance is nothing to write home about. The BDP-83SE might be significantly better but then at 1000$, for pure stereo you have tonnes of options which are probably equal or better.

Plus what about the scores of korean, chinese and white box bluray players? Do you think they'll have a respectable analog stage?

 

[manoj.p]

I have a Sony S380 BDP with an Onkyo NR609, and Kef Q300 bookshelf speakers. I use this setup for 2.0 stereo as well (apart from 5.1 HT), and run CD/SACDs from the BDP. The audio sounds really good (connection via the stock HDMI cable).

If you want to keep playing the SACD's (not using the analog output of Sony S380) then using the AVR is the only option. SACD can send sound only through DSD over HDMI or analog. Co-ax will not output sacd without re-sampling and downconverting.

Now if HDMI is "bad" for audio, then what is significantly better? Coax? If I get a dedicated CDP and a Integ amp with a coax connection (which audiophiles always recommend), will the difference be so significant that any "lay" man can say this sounds significantly better in orders of magnitude? Is it as significant as the difference we see between using a composite video cable (yellow) and an HDMI?

HDMI is fine for audio transmission. Moreover, your Onkyo 609 is quite good with DAC as it uses BurrBrown DAC chips. It also has the PLL jitter reducing filter. So, don't worry. You would need to spend lot more money on something like external DAC to get improvement.

 

[manoj.p]

Having heard the basic BD83, I didn't find its analog performance anything spectacular for 500$. Any basic CD player will sound better via analog as gobble has mentioned earlier.

That's a blatant statement. Any basic CD player will do better? Even an el-cheapo chinese brand will do?

HDMI is fine for multichannel audio. However because there is no dedicated clock for audio signals, it is a problem. Use of any PLL means huge jitter. No one is denying that it is the highest bandwidth interface and the only option for multichannel audio. However for stereo, there are better options.

If the HDMI interface is fine for multi-channel audio, then how come its bad only for 2 channel? If the bandwidth is quite more, then the interface can transmit more data per time in millisec, so jitter is automatically reduced due to buffer and clocking done at the AVR.

Also the Ayre universal player is a complete rework of the oppo with totally different analog output stages and power supplies. Its not a badge job like the others. I've heard a few Ayre CD players and while they are not the best I've heard, they are not that bad either.

I did not question his quality. All I said that he did rebadge/rework analog part. so, obviously, he is going to downplay the HDMI part. The moment HDMI comes into picture, whatever work he did lost the appeal for the end consumer.

As I mentioned earlier, the BDP-83's stereo performance is nothing to write home about. The BDP-83SE might be significantly better but then at 1000$, for pure stereo you have tonnes of options which are probably equal or better.

Plus what about the scores of korean, chinese and white box bluray players? Do you think they'll have a respectable analog stage?

I think there is a difference based on how a player is built, irrespective of whether its a bluray player or Korean, chinese or white box bluray or CD player. A better built bluray player will give better sound quality than a poorly built "dedicated" cd player. Does not matter who builds it, as long as it has better components. Making generalized statements like DVD player is bad for audio, chinese brand is bad, basic cd player will be good or an external DAC is good will never be true. Ultimately it depends upon the quality of that component itself.

 

[cricfansd]

As I mentioned earlier, the BDP-83's stereo performance is nothing to write home about. The BDP-83SE might be significantly better but then at 1000$, for pure stereo you have tonnes of options which are probably equal or better.

We are talking about BDP-93 here. I showed you the measurement of the analog stages with almost no distortion. I have always wondered what exactly sounds good or what looks good !!

 

[cricfansd]

I think there is a difference based on how a player is built, irrespective of whether its a bluray player or Korean, chinese or white box bluray or CD player. A better built bluray player will give better sound quality than a poorly built "dedicated" cd player. Does not matter who builds it, as long as it has better components. Making generalized statements like DVD player is bad for audio, chinese brand is bad, basic cd player will be good or an external DAC is good will never be true. Ultimately it depends upon the quality of that component itself.

Actually if you put the same decently built DVD/BD player in a fancy chassis and let these audio"phools" buy it as a CD player, they will rave about the openness of the sound-stage and what not. The designs that I have worked on over the years have gone in to some marquee name, almost always their testing has been done on our reference platform which is same for Taiwanese OEM or British Audiophile brands. Yes there are some basic electrical engineering practices one must follow for optimal design but none of that is Voodo science which you see in most audio forums.

 

[prankey]

If you want better sound, best get an external dac - that will be the best bang for the buck.

One way you are telling not to use analog output and other way suggesting a DAC which gives analog output???

I also strongly believe that a digital transfer of AV is the best way and HDMI should be the best cable for that including Coax and Optical as long as it faithfully pass digital audio. I can hear big difference between analog and digital output and only a compressed digital output sounds less fuller than uncompressed one from a very good sound card or a media player. No matter if we use the world's best quality DACs and analog output stages on the Player or DAC, they are bound to introduce THD+N and will certainly reduce the quality over the best quality cable run between the source to destination (AVR). Such phenomenon is minimal on a digital AV cable (if at all it may happen, I haven't come across any proof other than black magic being discussed here!).

 

[anm]

One way you are telling not to use analog output and other way suggesting a DAC which gives analog output???

you can't hear digital - you have to get analog somewhere
He is saying digital out from player, and analog from DAC instead of avr.

 

[cricfansd]

you can't hear digital - you have to get analog somewhere
He is saying digital out from player, and analog from DAC instead of avr.

You can delay it all the way to the speaker if you have a digital switching amp, though I understand what he is implying
I think the point we electrical engineers are trying to make is that role of jitter is overrated and much less understood in audio. Same problem can happen for video which uses cheaper DACs, high bandwidth signals yet some how every code word faithfully gets reproduced. Before any one jumps in with BS optical illusion etc, I just want to emphasize that video is evaluated lot more quantitatively and there is clear pass and fail criteria.

 

[Qondor]

Hi All,

Could you pls suggest where I can get cheap (but quality) cables in Bangalore & Mumbai (as I shuttle between these 2 cities). Looking to buy the following:

1) HDMI (AVR to Plasma) & (AVR to Media Player) - price?
2) Co-ax (AVR to DVD) & (AVR to Media Player) - price?

Thanx in advance

 

[himanshujovi]

Hi All,

Could you pls suggest where I can get cheap (but quality) cables in Bangalore & Mumbai (as I shuttle between these 2 cities). Looking to buy the following:

1) HDMI (AVR to Plasma) & (AVR to Media Player) - price?
2) Co-ax (AVR to DVD) & (AVR to Media Player) - price?

Thanx in advance

In addition , lot many vendors selling cheap HDMI cables in ebay.. Will those cables work ? Anything special to look out for in those like 1.3 compliance etc ?