Local Indian components Vs Imported components - My shocking Discovery

manek

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First let me being by saying that this comparision is completely based on my own personal experience and actual usage / testing and listening and YMMV. FMs who follow me know by now that i do a lot of DIY stuff and at times i take it to extreme level to find the right sound signature that i am looking for. Agreed that we all listen differently and what will be good for me could be bad for you and vice-versa. For each one of us this is your own personal discovery and unless you have burned your fingers discovering this you won't be able to judge what is good and what is bad. Below is my own journey past 5-10 years with various components / gear that i have used in my DIY endeavor and some of this finding will amaze you and lot of FMs won't agree and will troll me. But i am ok with that as my version of the truth has to be told -

1. Capacitors (Electrolytic / Metalized Polypropylene)
Nichicon Vs Keltron: Now this will come as a shocker as its difficult to believe that Keltron's electrolytics are much better than Nichicon Electrolytic unless you have burned your fingers. I had used this Nichicon Electrolytic capacitors in my phono pre-amplifier 3 years ago believing they will be better. I purchased them from theaudiocrafts.com and within a week almost all the capacitors got bulged and i was hearing hum in my audio. I contacted Aminder from theaudiocrafts about the source and he mentioned the source is mouser.com and there was no question of them being duplicate. I did not pursue further and replaced all of them with Keltron of the same rating. I am using the phono pre-amplifier happily ever since that and have no issues of either bulging or hum.

Mundorf metalized polyproplene vs Epcos motor capacitor - Another one of my discovery is this. The Epcos is meant to be used in motor applications, AC and submersible pumps and not marketed as an audiophile capacitor. Most customers of Epcos are generic electricians who wont pay much for a capacitor. They are used in extreme conditions and playing audio for them is like yawning. This is what i too discovered after paying as much as 10 times more for a Mundorf metalized capacitors of the same values. I have a Mundorf 68uF, 400vdc and an EPCOS 72uF,450VAC and i have done this test couple of times and it was easy to retain the Epcos after listening test. I just paid 1/10th for the Epcos. Again most audiophiles wont agree with this too.

Orange drops / DEC / CTR - In this case not much difference between orange drops and CTR but the Indian - DEC is a bad polyster capacitor to be completely avoided.

2. Potentiometers
Allo stepped attenuator / Alps carbon film / Elcom carbon film / Potel wire-wound potentiometers - This was a great discovery after using the ALPS blue velvet carbon film potentiometer and the Allo stepped attenuator which are priced similar and have similar sound signatures where the Alps being much mellower than the Allo. But the greatest discovery was using the Potel (Indian Brand) wire-wound potentiometer and both the Alps and Allo wont come closer to the resolution of the Potel and that too at 1/4th the cost. The Potel is an industrial wire-wound potentiometer and not used for commercial applications and i would have been the rarest person who have used them in an preamplifier. Its specifications and tolerance are better than Alps and have a 20000 cycles guarantee. Sound stage and resolution is unmatched with anything i have heard before. The Alps blue velvet potentiometer that i have used before is no match for the Poten wire-wound potentiometer and another great discovery by me after spending lots of cash.

3. Resistors
Vishay Roderstein/ Intron (local Indian Brand) - The Vishay Roderstein 1% metal film resistors that i have used is quite noisy and actually induce a lot of distortion in the input grid to ground driver tubes. I replaced these Vishay with an Intron (Indian Brand) thin film resistors with superb resolution, dynamics and distortion benefits. It was easy to scrap the Vishay within 5 mintues of listening. I am now planning to replace the cathode bypass and the plate resistors of the driver tubes with these for further benefits though it will be quite expensive replacement. Again this is difficult to fathom - how could an Indian brand be better than an American brand resistors. But i am ok with whatever FM think. This is my own analysis.

Raatronics / Mills - This one came as a shocker for me as the Mills are 10 times more expensive than the Raatronics in India. But performance and measurement wise it wont come even close to the Raatronics. Again difficult to believe but fortunately true. The Mills though sold as a 1% and non-inductive resistance was actually having 5% tolerance and a 8.66k resistance showed an inductance of 40mH in my HTC LCR meter where the Raatronics was 0.2% tolerance though sold as 1% tolerance and for the same value resistance was truly non-inductive and open circuit inductance. Nevertheless to say the Raatronics outperformed the Mills by miles and it was very easy to scrap the Mills. After listening to both Mills and Raatronics i could easily find out that the Mills were bandwidth limited and they actually compressed the high-ends too much. The Raatronics were quite smooth, mellow and open.

4. Output transformers

Poshan / Softone / Delta / Dared

The Dared (Chinese) was worst of the lot followed by Poshan (Hongkong). Delta (Indian) was quite good compared to the previous two but
was easily out numbered by the Softone (Japanese) R-core OPT. The Softone was the best OPT that i have ever listened to till date.

DIYers can try these locally available components at a much lower price but better performing than the imported ones as listed above and do not fall for the saying - "Everything imported has to be good or better than locally available ones". Only after burning my pocket deep i have done this discovery and now am wiser with my purchase. DIYers should use my experience and do not fall prey to other forums rant and go for any purchase blindly but use their due diligence. Its a completely different thing if you have a higher budget and have a strong feeling that only imported products are good, but dont try to prove that since its imported it has to be good. If you say then provided valid evidence of you using a local component and doing a comparison and then saying that unless not. My 2 paise.

Thanks for looking.
Do you get a dual gang potel pot ? I have only seen singles.

Ctr caps i use too and they are good.

Why should local products not be as good as others ? One just needs to find them.

All Nichicon caps bulging at the same time. Were they being used with the correct voltages ? Yes, keltron caps work for me too in a power supply though I know people pooh pooh them. I also used to use another Indian capacitor brand called Websen. They were made in collaboration with Rubicon. But they are no longer produced. So often for prototyping it's either keltron or samsung.

For power transformers, never had any luck with delta. They just wont answer emails. But I source torroids from Torotrans in pune and they are very good. For EI its Argo transformers in mumbai.
 

sdk

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Thanks drlowmu for details. Will be helpful in future.
Haribhai thats nice pot. I may be mistaken but why is ground wire not twisted with signal wire ?

Another alternative is Pankaj Potentiometers which is a very old company supplying to Indian Army is what I have read in the past. But I dont think they entertain custom small qty. wo

Do you get a dual gang potel pot ? I have only seen singles.

Ctr caps i use too and they are good.

Why should local products not be as good as others ? One just needs to find them.

All Nichicon caps bulging at the same time. Were they being used with the correct voltages ? Yes, keltron caps work for me too in a power supply though I know people pooh pooh them. I also used to use another Indian capacitor brand called Websen. They were made in collaboration with Rubicon. But they are no longer produced. So often for prototyping it's either keltron or samsung.

For power transformers, never had any luck with delta. They just wont answer emails. But I source torroids from Torotrans in pune and they are very good. For EI its Argo transformers in mumbai.
Is Argo still in business? They made a couple of transformers for me a decade back, very friendly and professional.

Regarding capacitors most dealers nowadays give junzl capacitors as first or only choice. Anyone have any experience with these?
 

manek

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Is Argo still in business? They made a couple of transformers for me a decade back, very friendly and professional.

Regarding capacitors most dealers nowadays give junzl capacitors as first or only choice. Anyone have any experience with these?
Argo was in business opposite minerva theater with their workshop in lower parel. Not too sure what happened during covid.
Is Argo still in business? They made a couple of transformers for me a decade back, very friendly and professional.

Regarding capacitors most dealers nowadays give junzl capacitors as first or only choice. Anyone have any experience with these?
Actually i get the dec or non branded ones on first ask.

There is another brand filcon. Thats decent too for film caps.

Junzi, never heard of them.
 
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Hari Iyer

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All Nichicon caps bulging at the same time. Were they being used with the correct voltages ?
Its a regulated power supply. So over voltage does not apply
Hari,

That 34 AWG wire is not meant for inside an Attenuator. It is used in place of a resistor, to a tweeter. The Magnanin wire will lose dynamics.......... in the locations you have used it !!

Be advised, your 34 AWG Attenuator's wire runs alone, will screw up subjective judgements you are now trying to make on parts, elsewhere in your audio system.

The proper wire Hari is something like Cardas Silver polished 19 AWG bare solid core , from Cardas, or Michael Percy in the USA. 18 AWG pure silver is also OK, AWG-wise. ................. Not 34 AWG "resistance" wire.

As posted earlier on this page, the parts and execution of an Attenuator is critical, due to the nature of the signals involved.

Done well, it can possibly ( and probably ) be "the" highest fidelity approach possible, or certainly in my mind, easily within the top 5% of what is available. We are not privy to hearing / comparing everything available in this world !!

Jeff
I don't fully agree on the cardas silver wire Jeff. I was using a solid silver wire with Rodhium plating 19 awg and I replaced that with the magnanin wire. The thinner wire is more open and less constrained. The magnanin wire has a very minor resistance of around 0.2 ohms which is ok and does not cause any voltage drop. They actually help to reduce noise further. I am using the silver wire only now for grounding purpose and not in signal path. The magnanin wires help in reducing sibilance and are less sweeter. Only using silver made them more airy not to my liking.
 
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venkatcr

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Someone should send Jeff the Indian components to see how he reacts after using them. Who knows, maybe we can start a global demand for Indian electronic components.
 

Hari Iyer

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Someone should send Jeff the Indian components to see how he reacts after using them. Who knows, maybe we can start a global demand for Indian electronic components.
I have already sent him Shilchar transformers and Intron thin film resistors. He was inquiring about Raatronics WW and Potel potentiometer but nothing beyond that.
 

SanjeevM

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In my Allo stepped attenuator there were instance of resistors (5 of them) getting open circuit. Also switching volume were noisy and had clicking noise which led me to replace them. I was ok with the SQ but can't match the Wirewound Potentiometer.


I was expecting this reply sooner or later. I cannot say about Nichicon as I never used them after my disastrous usage in my phono preamplifier. But about Vishay Roderstien even my mentor (Jeff) don't have high regards. He warned me for not using Vishay DC- Link capacitor anywhere in my amplifier due to its poor sonic quality. He suggested me to use WIMA DC-Link capacitors. About Vishay resistors, they are absolute crap and very harsh and have high distortion. I have used the half watt brown so- called military grade resistors in my phono preamplifier too and was not happy. Again you need lots of listening experience to identify a good and bad resistor by listening which I have developed over past 10+ years. For a novice you won't even notice any difference. Even between Mills and Raatronics only if you do A/B critical listening you can easily notice the difference - else not.

Source - mouser.com for Vishay
For Nichicon theaudiocrafts.com who source from mouser.com can't find a more reputed source
Which resistors do you recommend ?
 

Hari Iyer

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Which resistors do you recommend ?
I have used Raatronics WW resistor and found them better than Mills in my tube amplifier. I have used Intron thin film resistors and found them to be better than Roderstien MRA-3 as input resistance and driver cathode resistors. Each resistance is either good or bad depending upon intended usage and associated circuit. YMMV.
 
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sarathssca

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Is there any reputable / reliable online sources for these Intron thin film resistors (for resistor ladder volume controller) and Keltron capacitors.
Keltron capacitors i have seen i think locally with orange color ones, but not sure if they are original..
 

Hari Iyer

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Is there any reputable / reliable online sources for these Intron thin film resistors (for resistor ladder volume controller) and Keltron capacitors.
Keltron capacitors i have seen i think locally with orange color ones, but not sure if they are original..
Contact Intron directly. They sell even a single piece of thin film resistors. No dealers involved.
 

Chulbulee

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When possible, we try to avoid twisting ground and hot signal wires
In valve radio days, Philips was the leader and instilled fear among local service technicians who often tried to untwist seemingly innocuous wires "holding a bunch of wires" with loose end and lost all HF tuning. They thought locating the connections was easy and were doomed. My late father at AIR, briefed them about these wires used as small capacitors. Surprisingly Telefunken, Murphy, Nelco, Bush never used these and were easy to repair.

Philips continued these in Transistors too, where a thick tinned wire was soldered and a naked copper wire was wound around like a flag post, and sometimes even laid these into circles like a toroidal thing.
 

HIEND-Raja

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Rethm saadhana speaker all caps on subwoofer used only keltron. I have replaced many Nichicon caps with Keltron since never failed. Nichicon is sound better than Kelton.
 

spirovious

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I concur. Nichocon is more hype than substance
It depends on series.When l had built LM317 diy PSU, local caps couldn't filter noise well. Even bass was poor. After changing to Panasonic and Nichicon caps, things changed. Keltrons are better than other local brands though.
 

madman29

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It depends on series.When l had built LM317 diy PSU, local caps couldn't filter noise well. Even bass was poor. After changing to Panasonic and Nichicon caps, things changed. Keltrons are better than other local brands though.
I'm looking for 2 good quality output transformer for my tube amplifier.
Specifications are as follows:
Primary 5k 460v DC
Secondary 4-8 ohms
10 watt
Please suggest where I can source it from. I'm looking for transformers made in India.
I have already sent an enquiry to Delta and awaiting reply.
Is there any other sources?
 

Hari Iyer

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I'm looking for 2 good quality output transformer for my tube amplifier.
Specifications are as follows:
Primary 5k 460v DC
Secondary 4-8 ohms
10 watt
Please suggest where I can source it from. I'm looking for transformers made in India.
I have already sent an enquiry to Delta and awaiting reply.
Is there any other sources?
I am having a pair of used Delta output transformers - courtesy @beastofburden. If you want them shipped, I can do it to you at actual. You may have to ask amount and pay to @beastofburden.
 
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