Local Indian components Vs Imported components - My shocking Discovery

The ALPS is a carbon film type and the discussion is not about type, but is about cost vs quality. The ALPS blue velvet potentiometer are 4 times expensive compared to Potel but does not offer 4 times the quality. Rather the Potel sounds better than Alps imo.
Even different potentiometers have different sound quality and they are audible as well ?!?

Wow ! One keeps learning new things everyday.
 
Dear Hari again !!

Re reading your initial post, re : Potel wirewound potentiometers :

Did someone in the USA suggest to you to make up a 10K System Attenuator for yourself, using a 3 turn Precision WIREWOUND pair of potentiometers, on a common shaft, configured as an L -Pad???

The ALPS was not a wirewound pot, was it. Is the ALPS element conductive plastic ??

Maybe you have simply learned now, from your direct experience - that a wirewound pot, as suggested to you, can sound good ???

Jeff


Download the pdf on a " Bourns 3547."

I can do a write-up / thread, on how to execute a great sounding DIY System Attenuator
if there is much interest.

Jeff
Yes please.
 
Yes please.
Hello TD150,

Start here at Post #22 above please. ( 86865/post-974836 )


By wiring the two 10K pots' ( on a common shaft ) end terminals opposite to each other, as an "X:, and using their commonly wired wipers as the single output, you have achieved a constant 10K impedance L-Pad pot. It does not change it's 10K Z ..... as you change volume.

A wire wound sounds superior IMHO ( and others ) to a conductive plastic pot.


DRAWING ............ for CLARITY :

My audio mentor sent this to me in 2017. I sent this drawing to Hari in 2021. ( Its what I use. No active line stage needed in my system. ) Pots turn on same shaft ...

SNIP 2017 from Dennis.JPG
Jeff
 
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DRAWING ............ for CLARITY :

My audio mentor sent this to me in 2017. I sent this drawing to Hari in 2021. ( Its what I use. No active line stage needed in my system. ) Pots turn on same shaft ...

View attachment 63905


Jeff
Wow. This is an ingenious way to change the volume without changing the impedance. Whoever thought of this first - brilliant.
 
What a brave post. Although I have completely discontinued DIY and repair work due to career-related time constraints, when I was active in this area, I found NXP (Philips), Keltron and original Samwah caps to be good for use as generic substitutes. As most of the folks who approached me for repairing stuff, usually came to me at a stage just before discarding equipment (after frustrating experiences with other mechs), they did not care much about replacement caps used, etc. So I never went in for expensive types.

When my Sony Wega Trinitron 29 inch TV from the year 2000 (KV-XJ29M80 chassis) started showing symptoms of failing, my brother undertook the task to fix it. The boards inside were essentially imported and litered with Rubycon eletrolytics (made in Japan). It was interesting to note that most of the Rubycons, especially around the vertical stage were all leaky. Probably Sony's circuit design was driving them close to their tolerance limits but after recapping with Keltron caps, the TV is working perfectly well.
 
If one desires 4 gang wirewound pot are also available. Will not require additional shaft attachment to turn the two different wipers at same time and stereo connection can be made.
http://www.potentiometer.in/panel_set3_watt_gange.php
minimum tolerance of 2 % is mentioned.
regards
`
Hello Hiten, nice to meet you,

Yes, four gangs are available. However, with two separate dual gangs, and a MXL pulley mechanism ( one turn linear is a bit too fast !! ) you can " slip a cog or two or three " on one channel's belt, relative to the other's channel, and put-in a system BALANCE CONTROL CORRECTION. Not so possible ..... with four pots on one shaft.

Also, a caveat : I have NO idea as to the quality of this Indian / Potel wirewound pot Hari is using. Refer to the Bourns data sheet I posted earlier, as my own example of a suitable high-quality precision wirewound pot.

The most important point : this entire idea we are discussing - ( for this type of system Attenuator )........... is " A+++ "............!!!!

I say this from actual experiences, VS all the other high-end passive Attenuator types some of my audio friends have A-Bed over the years.

For the record, this Attenuator idea was given to me in 2017 by Mr. Dennis Fraker, the principal at Serious Stereo, in Livingston MT. It is HIS drawing to me I have posted above. He offers commercially such system Attenuators, custom built to the Queen's taste.

Jeff
 
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Thanks drlowmu for details. Will be helpful in future.
Haribhai thats nice pot. I may be mistaken but why is ground wire not twisted with signal wire ?

Another alternative is Pankaj Potentiometers which is a very old company supplying to Indian Army is what I have read in the past. But I dont think they entertain custom small qty. work.
Regards
 
Thanks drlowmu for details. Will be helpful in future.
Haribhai thats nice pot. I may be mistaken but why is ground wire not twisted with signal wire ?

Another alternative is Pankaj Potentiometers which is a very old company supplying to Indian Army is what I have read in the past. But I dont think they entertain custom small qty. work.
Regards
I have bought 1 watt carbon potentiometer from Pankaj 20 years ago from LT road. I am not sure if they directly sell retail. Signal wire and ground wire were not coupled to prevent radiation. Btw, I don't have any hum or noise with this arrangement either.
 
Thanks drlowmu for details. Will be helpful in future.
Haribhai thats nice pot. I may be mistaken but why is ground wire not twisted with signal wire ?

Another alternative is Pankaj Potentiometers which is a very old company supplying to Indian Army is what I have read in the past. But I dont think they entertain custom small qty. work.
Regards
Hello Hiten,

When possible, we try to avoid twisting ground and hot signal wires.

The signal wires you refer to sound worse, twisted IMHO.

I am no E.E. ( to know and be able to definitively explain all the theory ). I believe twisting such signal wires increases capacitance and it negatively effects the high frequency reproduction.

Irregardless of any E.E, reason, who cares?? Just A-B this signal wire twisting on someone's really good system, and you will discover what sounds the best. to you.

" The proof of the pudding is in the eating ". Have fun.

Jeff

Again FMs to be perfectly clear with you, I do not recommend a single turn pot, nor a four-on-one shaft arrangement.

A single turn linear Pot is too sensitive for use. Don't do it !! A four-on-one-shaft control excludes having a balance option in your listening room.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The DIY answer with single turn 10K linear pots is two-fold : 1) use two dual - ganged pots, or 2) even four 10 K individual pots. Then employ a separate volume control pulley and knob, and appropriate ( differing ) diameter MXL pulleys and MXL belts, to make the Attenuator two or three turns end to end. You can " slip" a few notches ( or cogs ) on one channel's MXL pulleys, to put in a ROOM BALANCE offset.


Another warning. At this low signal level, the quality of the few parts ( RCA jacks, silver wire, Pots ) is a key consideration, and it reflects directly on one's ultimate performance. You will get what you pay for !!

Done well, this Attenuator's absolute music playback performance is hard to beat !!!!

Unlike many, I have had four years to figure-out how to do this, DIY.


..................................................................3 turn precision POTS : ..................................................................


ATTENUATOR Assembly TWO.jpg
 
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When possible, we try to avoid twisting ground and hot signal wires.

The signal wires you refer to sound worse, twisted IMHO.

I am no E.E. ( to know and be able to definitively explain all the theory ). I believe twisting such signal wires increases capacitance and it negatively effects the high frequency reproduction.

Indeed. capacitors act like short circuit for any type of alternative current. Higher the capacitance and higher the frequency, lower the impedance. closeness of the two wires increases the capacitance. Length of the wire increases the capacitance. Thickness of the dielectric (material between the two wires) decreases the capacitance. Just take a simple LCR meter and measure the capacitance of two wires. Then start twisting them together and you will see the capacitance increasing. Hence high frequency get more affected than lower frequency. It also implies that we should have shorter interconnects, thicker cables so that the distance between the two conducting wires increases.

The problem that twisting solves is EMI interference. But if you don't have that, why twist the wires.
 
Indeed. capacitors act like short circuit for any type of alternative current. Higher the capacitance and higher the frequency, lower the impedance. closeness of the two wires increases the capacitance. Length of the wire increases the capacitance. Thickness of the dielectric (material between the two wires) decreases the capacitance. Just take a simple LCR meter and measure the capacitance of two wires. Then start twisting them together and you will see the capacitance increasing. Hence high frequency get more affected than lower frequency. It also implies that we should have shorter interconnects, thicker cables so that the distance between the two conducting wires increases.

The problem that twisting solves is EMI interference. But if you don't have that, why twist the wires.
Thinner wires should be used for volume controls. I am using a 0.2mm (34 awg) magnanin wire for my Preamplifier internal wiring with good results.
 
Thinner wires should be used for volume controls. I am using a 0.2mm (34 awg) magnanin wire for my Preamplifier internal wiring with good results.
Yes. Capacitance is proportional to the surface area of the plates (thinner the wire, lesser the surface area). Thin wires will decrease capacitance but increase resistance. But for very short distance, the resistance will not matter as much.
 
Never had any doubts on Keltrons. They are always there in my PS. However around the tubes I like to play with extremely low ESR German caps without breaking my pocket.

Thin film resistors look interesting. Will try to replace metal films and experience myself. However the 0.1% tolerance could be doing wonders as the amp now operates closest to its topology? . Many tube amp builders are fan of using Allen Bradley carbon resistors even if they are 10%.
Thin film is Resistors are not very suitable when there is a power draw even though adequately derated. I shall prefer a non-inductive wire wound at such place. Locations where thin film can excel is grid to ground input resistance and Rk of driver tubes where low current is involved.
 
Thinner wires should be used for volume controls. I am using a 0.2mm (34 awg) magnanin wire for my Preamplifier internal wiring with good results.

Hari,

That 34 AWG wire is not meant for inside an Attenuator. It is used in place of a resistor, to a tweeter. The Magnanin wire will lose dynamics.......... in the locations you have used it !!

Be advised, your 34 AWG Attenuator's wire runs alone, will screw up subjective judgements you are now trying to make on parts, elsewhere in your audio system.

The proper wire Hari is something like Cardas Silver polished 19 AWG bare solid core , from Cardas, or Michael Percy in the USA. 18 AWG pure silver is also OK, AWG-wise. ................. Not 34 AWG "resistance" wire.

As posted earlier on this page, the parts and execution of an Attenuator is critical, due to the nature of the signals involved.

Done well, it can possibly ( and probably ) be "the" highest fidelity approach possible, or certainly in my mind, easily within the top 5% of what is available. We are not privy to hearing / comparing everything available in this world !!

Jeff
 
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First let me being by saying that this comparision is completely based on my own personal experience and actual usage / testing and listening and YMMV. FMs who follow me know by now that i do a lot of DIY stuff and at times i take it to extreme level to find the right sound signature that i am looking for. Agreed that we all listen differently and what will be good for me could be bad for you and vice-versa. For each one of us this is your own personal discovery and unless you have burned your fingers discovering this you won't be able to judge what is good and what is bad. Below is my own journey past 5-10 years with various components / gear that i have used in my DIY endeavor and some of this finding will amaze you and lot of FMs won't agree and will troll me. But i am ok with that as my version of the truth has to be told -

1. Capacitors (Electrolytic / Metalized Polypropylene)
Nichicon Vs Keltron: Now this will come as a shocker as its difficult to believe that Keltron's electrolytics are much better than Nichicon Electrolytic unless you have burned your fingers. I had used this Nichicon Electrolytic capacitors in my phono pre-amplifier 3 years ago believing they will be better. I purchased them from theaudiocrafts.com and within a week almost all the capacitors got bulged and i was hearing hum in my audio. I contacted Aminder from theaudiocrafts about the source and he mentioned the source is mouser.com and there was no question of them being duplicate. I did not pursue further and replaced all of them with Keltron of the same rating. I am using the phono pre-amplifier happily ever since that and have no issues of either bulging or hum.

Mundorf metalized polyproplene vs Epcos motor capacitor - Another one of my discovery is this. The Epcos is meant to be used in motor applications, AC and submersible pumps and not marketed as an audiophile capacitor. Most customers of Epcos are generic electricians who wont pay much for a capacitor. They are used in extreme conditions and playing audio for them is like yawning. This is what i too discovered after paying as much as 10 times more for a Mundorf metalized capacitors of the same values. I have a Mundorf 68uF, 400vdc and an EPCOS 72uF,450VAC and i have done this test couple of times and it was easy to retain the Epcos after listening test. I just paid 1/10th for the Epcos. Again most audiophiles wont agree with this too.

Orange drops / DEC / CTR - In this case not much difference between orange drops and CTR but the Indian - DEC is a bad polyster capacitor to be completely avoided.

2. Potentiometers
Allo stepped attenuator / Alps carbon film / Elcom carbon film / Potel wire-wound potentiometers - This was a great discovery after using the ALPS blue velvet carbon film potentiometer and the Allo stepped attenuator which are priced similar and have similar sound signatures where the Alps being much mellower than the Allo. But the greatest discovery was using the Potel (Indian Brand) wire-wound potentiometer and both the Alps and Allo wont come closer to the resolution of the Potel and that too at 1/4th the cost. The Potel is an industrial wire-wound potentiometer and not used for commercial applications and i would have been the rarest person who have used them in an preamplifier. Its specifications and tolerance are better than Alps and have a 20000 cycles guarantee. Sound stage and resolution is unmatched with anything i have heard before. The Alps blue velvet potentiometer that i have used before is no match for the Poten wire-wound potentiometer and another great discovery by me after spending lots of cash.

3. Resistors
Vishay Roderstein/ Intron (local Indian Brand) - The Vishay Roderstein 1% metal film resistors that i have used is quite noisy and actually induce a lot of distortion in the input grid to ground driver tubes. I replaced these Vishay with an Intron (Indian Brand) thin film resistors with superb resolution, dynamics and distortion benefits. It was easy to scrap the Vishay within 5 mintues of listening. I am now planning to replace the cathode bypass and the plate resistors of the driver tubes with these for further benefits though it will be quite expensive replacement. Again this is difficult to fathom - how could an Indian brand be better than an American brand resistors. But i am ok with whatever FM think. This is my own analysis.

Raatronics / Mills - This one came as a shocker for me as the Mills are 10 times more expensive than the Raatronics in India. But performance and measurement wise it wont come even close to the Raatronics. Again difficult to believe but fortunately true. The Mills though sold as a 1% and non-inductive resistance was actually having 5% tolerance and a 8.66k resistance showed an inductance of 40mH in my HTC LCR meter where the Raatronics was 0.2% tolerance though sold as 1% tolerance and for the same value resistance was truly non-inductive and open circuit inductance. Nevertheless to say the Raatronics outperformed the Mills by miles and it was very easy to scrap the Mills. After listening to both Mills and Raatronics i could easily find out that the Mills were bandwidth limited and they actually compressed the high-ends too much. The Raatronics were quite smooth, mellow and open.

4. Output transformers

Poshan / Softone / Delta / Dared

The Dared (Chinese) was worst of the lot followed by Poshan (Hongkong). Delta (Indian) was quite good compared to the previous two but
was easily out numbered by the Softone (Japanese) R-core OPT. The Softone was the best OPT that i have ever listened to till date.

DIYers can try these locally available components at a much lower price but better performing than the imported ones as listed above and do not fall for the saying - "Everything imported has to be good or better than locally available ones". Only after burning my pocket deep i have done this discovery and now am wiser with my purchase. DIYers should use my experience and do not fall prey to other forums rant and go for any purchase blindly but use their due diligence. Its a completely different thing if you have a higher budget and have a strong feeling that only imported products are good, but dont try to prove that since its imported it has to be good. If you say then provided valid evidence of you using a local component and doing a comparison and then saying that unless not. My 2 paise.

Thanks for looking.
Do you get a dual gang potel pot ? I have only seen singles.

Ctr caps i use too and they are good.

Why should local products not be as good as others ? One just needs to find them.

All Nichicon caps bulging at the same time. Were they being used with the correct voltages ? Yes, keltron caps work for me too in a power supply though I know people pooh pooh them. I also used to use another Indian capacitor brand called Websen. They were made in collaboration with Rubicon. But they are no longer produced. So often for prototyping it's either keltron or samsung.

For power transformers, never had any luck with delta. They just wont answer emails. But I source torroids from Torotrans in pune and they are very good. For EI its Argo transformers in mumbai.
 
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