Mid to high end speaker options

[sidvee]

Re: Rockport technologies

Thanks Bhagwan,
Yes Audiogon has a lot of options, but no thanks. Too much trouble to get them here and then if I dont like them I have to go through trouble again to sell. I did/do buy a lot of stuff on Audiogon so the buying process itself is not the issue. Secondly I realize if there is a damage there is no support in India. Happened to me 4 years ago with a Conrad Johnson 17ls2 pre. Minor problem on one channel, had to take it back to US, get it repaired and then sell it on Audiogon. Too much trouble. Rather pay little more, audition, and get local support.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[sidvee]

Re: Rockport technologies

So I have slowly started the process of a new speaker search.
1st Audition: Will be ATC, hopefully next week.
2nd Audition: Hopefully will be evolution acoustics mm mini one, sometime towards end of Sep.
Meanwhile I hope to squeeze in a quick Bangalore visit for the Rockport Mira II and an Avalon Ascendent right here in hyderabad.
I am in no hurry, will take my time and will report my opinions here in this thread.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[bhagwan]

Re: Rockport technologies

Thanks Bhagwan,
Rather pay little more, audition, and get local support.
Cheers,
Sid

Point noted;
However, a few basic things..
How many D & D's have stock in India ?
How many D & D's have a support set up in India ? If a product fails / what can they do ?
Except that B & W's D & D - I do not know of any other that carries stock & offers in show room demo of all models - including The Nautilus...

All others are Catalogue Salesmen.
Yes, they may have 1 speaker in stock, but that is about it.
Will it be well displayed & connected with appropriate electronics & digital / analogue front end ? I am not certain... :indifferent14:

I am sorry for a 'gloomy' post, but that is the sad reality of D & D's in India - as you learnt about the Dynaudio only yesterday...

 

[sidvee]

Re: Rockport technologies

Point noted;
However, a few basic things..
How many D & D's have stock in India ?
How many D & D's have a support set up in India ? If a product fails / what can they do ?
Except that B & W's D & D - I do not know of any other that carries stock & offers in show room demo of all models - including The Nautilus...

All others are Catalogue Salesmen.
Yes, they may have 1 speaker in stock, but that is about it.
Will it be well displayed & connected with appropriate electronics & digital / analogue front end ? I am not certain... :indifferent14:

I am sorry for a 'gloomy' post, but that is the sad reality of D & D's in India - as you learnt about the Dynaudio only yesterday...

Yes you have stated all right points except a couple perhaps:
1. Support setup. I can think of ARN, Audio People and Audire, all of them have technical support. They have or have outsourced repairs to competent techs., have access to import PCB's, components and circuit schematics of equipment they sell. Of-course these are dealers I have dealt with in past so I know their capabilities, not sure of others.
2. Regarding stock, yes that is more of a problem. Consequently I will narrow down my choices to what is available. BTW all of the models I have listed, I have talked to their dealers and so far they seem ok on home demo's, provided I pay for shipment, so that will take away any concern on matching equipment.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[ranjeetrain]

Re: Rockport technologies

WILSON AUDIO SOPHIA 2 MINT CONDITION | Full range | Colorado Springs, Colorado 80919 | AudiogoN - The High-end Audio Community
Excellent price - can get it for lower..:

Wilson Audio System W/P 8 Desert Mercedes Silver Gorgeous Music and Aesthetics | Full range | Sunnyvale, California 94087 | AudiogoN - The High-end Audio Community
you can buy without demo @ this price - cannot go wrong - there will always be an exit possible;;

GAUDER AKUSTIK GERMANY CASSIANO - REMARKABLE AWARD WINNING! | Full range | Scottsdale, Arizona 85258 | AudiogoN - The High-end Audio Community
This is not cheap - but @ 10/- K - I would go for it - cause I like Accuton Driver based L/S !

Interesting recommendations! How would you stack Sophia II against W/P8? And then again against Kharma CFE 3.2? I see that you spoke highly of the Accuton drivers in GAUDER. Does that make speakers like Marten and Kharma also your choice?

 

[arj]

Re: Rockport technologies

JBL K2 S9900 | Full range | Cambridge, Massachusetts 02138 | AudiogoN - The High-end Audio Community
Steal - imho
.

This seems to be for a single speaker...

But great selection of speakers !!

 

[bhagwan]

Re: Rockport technologies

Interesting recommendations! How would you stack Sophia II against W/P8? And then again against Kharma CFE 3.2? I see that you spoke highly of the Accuton drivers in GAUDER. Does that make speakers like Marten and Kharma also your choice?

I personally use Accuton drivers @ home - so my opinions will be a bit polarised;
Therefore what I say, should be taken in the appropriate context.

In the WA Range, I like the Sophia & the Sasha - both are great speakers.
The Sophia is good for Rock / Acid Jazz etc.
The Sasha can play a bit of Western Classical too.
Depends on the listeners preference - musically - they can choose a speaker that suits their musical needs. Their new Alexia is a brilliant speaker - just do not play Indian Classical on it;

With regards Marten Design - I love Leif's work.
I specially like his Coltrane 1 [original work] - I liked the Momento too.
I do not like the Supremo & the Coltrane 2 is a 'luke warm' speaker. The New Coltrane Alto [I Think that is the name] I do NOT LIKE at ALL [sorry] !
I do not know what MD has done so wrong with that design.
Their cheaper models are great VFM - I think. They should be sold in India. It is a good product.

Dr. Gauder, I have known for 1 + decade from his Issophone days.
His 1st T & P Designs were super - brilliant VFM - I felt. The Later works went down stream, I never understood why. Design & Shape & SOUND - all got poor;

However, his current works - the new Berliner Range that were launched are excellent speakers - made for a very 'mature' audience. Since they are not understood much - their prices get discounted & therefore, I suggest a person that likes WC Music should consider them - on a serious note. This cannot be used by a person that has a lot of money & has not gone through a lot of 'serious' audio - it is like drinking Cognac - it take time [a lot of time] to understand what is going on [in the drink & in the speaker] !!

Disclaimer;
These are my personal opinions & they may be bias / polarised - so please do not take them seriously.

I have purposely not commented on Kharma - The owner is very well known to me - builds the most beautiful 'looking' speaker that is finished like a Italian Luxury Car [actually like a Spyker Car] but the sound of the Kharma's has never been acceptable with me - I have heard 90 % of their production models in several countries with many many different electronics & in the past 3 years with their own amplification & I just do not know what Kharma is doing so wrong ? Just cannot understand it...

 

[ranjeetrain]

Re: Rockport technologies

I personally use Accuton drivers @ home - so my opinions will be a bit polarised;
Therefore what I say, should be taken in the appropriate context.

In the WA Range, I like the Sophia & the Sasha - both are great speakers.
The Sophia is good for Rock / Acid Jazz etc.
The Sasha can play a bit of Western Classical too.
Depends on the listeners preference - musically - they can choose a speaker that suits their musical needs. Their new Alexia is a brilliant speaker - just do not play Indian Classical on it;

With regards Marten Design - I love Leif's work.
I specially like his Coltrane 1 [original work] - I liked the Momento too.
I do not like the Supremo & the Coltrane 2 is a 'luke warm' speaker. The New Coltrane Alto [I Think that is the name] I do NOT LIKE at ALL [sorry] !
I do not know what MD has done so wrong with that design.
Their cheaper models are great VFM - I think. They should be sold in India. It is a good product.

Dr. Gauder, I have known for 1 + decade from his Issophone days.
His 1st T & P Designs were super - brilliant VFM - I felt. The Later works went down stream, I never understood why. Design & Shape & SOUND - all got poor;

However, his current works - the new Berliner Range that were launched are excellent speakers - made for a very 'mature' audience. Since they are not understood much - their prices get discounted & therefore, I suggest a person that likes WC Music should consider them - on a serious note. This cannot be used by a person that has a lot of money & has not gone through a lot of 'serious' audio - it is like drinking Cognac - it take time [a lot of time] to understand what is going on [in the drink & in the speaker] !!

Disclaimer;
These are my personal opinions & they may be bias / polarised - so please do not take them seriously.

I have purposely not commented on Kharma - The owner is very well known to me - builds the most beautiful 'looking' speaker that is finished like a Italian Luxury Car [actually like a Spyker Car] but the sound of the Kharma's has never been acceptable with me - I have heard 90 % of their production models in several countries with many many different electronics & in the past 3 years with their own amplification & I just do not know what Kharma is doing so wrong ? Just cannot understand it...

Thank you for a well written post. No disclaimer is needed. We all have and should have an opinion about the gear familiar to us.

My understanding of Wilson and Marten matches yours but differs greatly on Kharma. I understand Kharma and Wilson have been in the reference system of more people than any other ultra high-end speakers. Kharma's driver integration is supposed to be most transparent. And they are said to play at a very very high level. I am surprised you didn't like their sound. I want to understand what aspect of Kharma sound did you not like; what did they get wrong in actual use; if you want to elaborate.

Sid, I hope you don't mind a bit of chatter. Hope it's not too OT

 

[bhagwan]

Re: Rockport technologies

I understand Kharma and Wilson have been in the reference system of more people than any other ultra high-end speakers. Kharma's driver integration is supposed to be most transparent. And they are said to play at a very very high level.

I am surprised you didn't like their sound.

I want to understand what aspect of Kharma sound did you not like; what did they get wrong in actual use; if you want to elaborate.

Sir,

A few basic things;

a]
Have you heard Kharma Loudspeakers ?
If so, which model & with what electronics;

b]
Just because a lot of persons use a particular product, does not make that a 'good' sounding product for me; WA is what I have in mind here.

Very 'few' people in the world even know about Tidal - let alone use is & think they make some of the best sounding loudspeakers in the world.

c]
Kharma Loudspeakers [even the amps] are built like swiss watches or jewels - they look superb - but their sound [maybe because of the filters they use] is not acceptable to my ears.

I may just have 1 small suggestion - listen to audio gear - in different rooms with different electronics & then form an opinion based on a blank slate - do not enter any audio demo - audition / room with any pre-conceived notions of what you are to listen to. That way, you will form an opinion based on what you like [at that point in time] or do not like.

To get back to this Topic - RT - The Best that Andy Payor ever made - imho - was his Merak & Sheraton Speaker 'set'
He could never make any loudspeaker that could come close to it in its sound playback capabilities.
Same was with the Gryphon Audio Design - Andy Payor had a big role to play in that speaker design with Steen Deulund & that was the best speaker - GAD ever made - The Cantata - one never sees it on the 2nd hand market - why ?
Cause it cannot get replaced....do ponder over it;

 

[ranjeetrain]

Re: Rockport technologies

Kharma Loudspeakers [even the amps] are built like swiss watches or jewels - they look superb - but their sound [maybe because of the filters they use] is not acceptable to my ears.

That's a really interesting observation.

 

[Dr.Bass]

Re: Rockport technologies

Their new Alexia is a brilliant speaker - just do not play Indian Classical on it;

.

Very curious what exactly does that mean? A speaker that is classified as brilliant but cannot play a fundamental music genre ?

 

[bhagwan]

Re: Rockport technologies

Very curious what exactly does that mean? A speaker that is classified as brilliant but cannot play a fundamental music genre ?

Sir,
This happens to a lot of speakers;
Some speakers can play big band very well & some cannot.
Some can play quarters & trio's very well but faulter on big orchestras.
I am sure in your years of music listening - you must have surely come across several speakers that play certain kinds of music better than others...

To try and come back to the Alexia - I personally feel it is a very well balanced
loudspeaker;
It plays Jazz & Blues very well.
Also does Western Classical in a good manner;
However, it could not do 'Madar' [Track 6 - Jaw] for me - as I would have been 'satisfied'
Maybe next time I listen to it, I shall play my Meeting by the River & Darshan CD's & see how it performs - if it does it well, I will report back. The Electronics was Pass Labs [4 chassis power amp] & EMM Labs - Transport & DAC with Pass Labs 3 chassis pre - I do not remember the cables....

Just to give you an example - the Dynaudio Consequence Ultimate - Dynaudio - All there is. - Plays Western Classical like a dream [for me at least] - but it cannot play Floyd to save its life - rather sad;;;

So, I always feel that a loudspeaker has to be chosen with your musical preference in mind - I have yet to come across a loudspeaker that can play all generes of music & that too exceeding well...

Well, the Audiaz Gredanza may just be that 1 'universal' loudspeaker - just maybe !!

 

[bhagwan]

Re: Rockport technologies

cannot play a fundamental music genre ?

Sir,
There are very [really] few speakers that can play Indian Classical Music well.
Truly, I have often realised that most speakers cannot play Indian Classical Music well;
If you have come across any that play it well, please do bring it to my attention, I would like to listen to those speakers - intently.
Basically, lots of music is recorded on the ground - the Tabla is lower than the voice & the Tanpura is always standing up right.
The Tabla & the Chata are in the same plane - horizintally - do they always play like that ?
Please do listen 'intently' & then report.
I shall appreciate the inputs;
A Meeting by the River is a great CD - Play it - so much is there to learn from it.
The Hawain Slide Guitar plays in the front. The Mohan Veena plays on the top. The Tabalchee is left handed. Sits behind & not on the side. I could go on and on.....

Only great systems can show all these minute differences to you.

I have a long story about a RT Speaker I heard @ Munich 2013 - I will narrate it later - why did I give that sound with the Absolare & MSB & CEC the Best of the Show - it happened because of an Indian Classical CD - Gundecha Brothers - 1st time in my life - on that system I realised that the 2 singers were sitting a bit front & a bit back.
No other system showed that to me.....

Still waiting for that speaker that you believe / know of that can play Indian Classical well...Please - AP - I request you - share the details with me.

 

[ranjeetrain]

Re: Rockport technologies

Sir,
There are very [really] few speakers that can play Indian Classical Music well.
Truly, I have often realised that most speakers cannot play Indian Classical Music well;
If you have come across any that play it well, please do bring it to my attention, I would like to listen to those speakers - intently.
Basically, lots of music is recorded on the ground - the Tabla is lower than the voice & the Tanpura is always standing up right.
The Tabla & the Chata are in the same plane - horizintally - do they always play like that ?
Please do listen 'intently' & then report.
I shall appreciate the inputs;
A Meeting by the River is a great CD - Play it - so much is there to learn from it.
The Hawain Slide Guitar plays in the front. The Mohan Veena plays on the top. The Tabalchee is left handed. Sits behind & not on the side. I could go on and on.....

Only great systems can show all these minute differences to you.

I have a long story about a RT Speaker I heard @ Munich 2013 - I will narrate it later - why did I give that sound with the Absolare & MSB & CEC the Best of the Show - it happened because of an Indian Classical CD - Gundecha Brothers - 1st time in my life - on that system I realised that the 2 singers were sitting a bit front & a bit back.
No other system showed that to me.....

Still waiting for that speaker that you believe / know of that can play Indian Classical well...Please - AP - I request you - share the details with me.

IMO, a speaker (system) that can't let distinguish between such subtle differences (height, position, depth of instruments and voices) is simply not imaging well. Such a speaker (system) would fail to replicate similar differences in other genres as well.

IMO, a speaker (system) either images well or it doesn't. If it images well, it will bring out the differences in all recordings. It has no knowledge of the genre being played. Hence a speaker (system) is good (or bad) for playing a certain 'type of' genres rather than 'a specific' genre.

Similar subtle cues that have been pointed out are present in recordings from other genres, too. Of course, all my personal opinion.

 

[sidvee]

Re: Rockport technologies

IMO, a speaker (system) either images well or it doesn't.

And my personal opionion on this, this ability in any speaker is highly correlated to the speaker placement, listener placement and room acoustics. Ultimately a speaker that images well in one room may not reproduce the same in another. So is it the speaker at fault?
Cheers,
Sid

 

[bhagwan]

Re: Rockport technologies

IMO, a speaker (system) that can't let distinguish between such subtle differences (height, position, depth of instruments and voices) is simply not imaging well. Such a speaker (system) would fail to replicate similar differences in other genres as well.

IMO, a speaker (system) either images well or it doesn't. If it images well, it will bring out the differences in all recordings. It has no knowledge of the genre being played. Hence a speaker (system) is good (or bad) for playing a certain 'type of' genres rather than 'a specific' genre.

Similar subtle cues that have been pointed out are present in recordings from other genres, too. Of course, all my personal opinion.

Sir,
I agree with you - 100 %
However, my observations 'in reality' have not been consistent;
Lots of different speakers play - lots of music - some they play well, some they just cannot play - Goldmund Top Model - 500/-K US$'s - Wilson Alexanderia - Focal Utopia EM - the list is a bit long - they play some kinds of music very well, but just cannot play 'small' ensembles well;;;sad [indeed]
Just listening to :-
Raag Komal Rishabh Asavari
Ramakant & Umakant Gundecha 'Darshan'
2003 Sense World Music
Darshan Gundecha Brothers Discover music at Last.fm
Brilliant start to Sunday morning;;too good..

Posted it - since, we were talking about Indian Classical - this is a ref cd for me - as far as Indian Classical 'vocal' is concerned... simple super [performance & recording] :clapping:

 

[bhagwan]

Re: Rockport technologies

Ultimately a speaker that images well in one room may not reproduce the same in another. So is it the speaker at fault?
Cheers,
Sid

Sir,
No one / thing is at fault.
The issue here is - when a person listens to a set up - at a house - showroom - show [where ever] it has been set up by that person who owns it - maybe he has lived with it - played with it - experimented with it.
So, when I listen, I take the full result in its complete sense - regardless of what has been done / gone into it.
If it plays well, great.
If it does not play well, so be it...
Things have happened to me 'several times'
This year, just to give a small example - TAD [speaker & electronics] did not sound as good [not even close] to the TAD with Constellation Audio.
So, is Constellation Audio [electronics] better than TAD [electronics] ?
The Speaker Model was the same;;
Or was it 'poor set up' ?
I do not know, this was just my observation over 3 days & visiting the room more than 6 / 7 times - what ever, I like - I always visit several times;

 

[ranjeetrain]

Re: Rockport technologies

And my personal opionion on this, this ability in any speaker is highly correlated to the speaker placement, listener placement and room acoustics. Ultimately a speaker that images well in one room may not reproduce the same in another. So is it the speaker at fault?
Cheers,
Sid

I agree. Imaging is not only dependent on the speaker. Hence I prefer using the term 'system', which encompasses everything, the speaker, the electronics, the room, the placement, the treatment.

I guess the reason why this characteristic with speakers is often related to speakers is that speakers are the last in the chain producing the sound. And they play the biggest role in the final sound. But ultimately, it's the whole 'system', not the speakers alone.

 

[arj]

Re: Rockport technologies

I have a long story about a RT Speaker I heard @ Munich 2013 - I will narrate it later - why did I give that sound with the Absolare & MSB & CEC the Best of the Show - it happened because of an Indian Classical CD - Gundecha Brothers - 1st time in my life - on that system I realised that the 2 singers were sitting a bit front & a bit back.
No other system showed that to me.....

Bhagwan, this is more of a question than a comment since personally i really find it difficult to isolate the issue with one component over the whole system and this is especially around soundstaging
eg When i did an A/B between an Avantgarde (i think Uno) and Devore fidelity floorstander a couple of years ago in singapore using a Leben CS600 i found the Devore to do really well in terms of integeration and soundstaging
But later i heard the Audio note with one of the SETs(not chinese..but dont recollect the name..ART audio ?) and that sounded leaps and bounds in a different category suddenly

But since i was looking for the amp (Leben) and could not afford the speakers that was the end of it
So i presume each speaker needs its own "Atmosphere" and when that whole synergy changes the sound just changes dramatically

Obviously you have had a huge exposure and have heard most of these in different settings and always with high quality upstream components..but how are you able to really say confidently that one speaker (at this level of performance) is definitely better than the other ? Maybe it is a cable or even the source system which is unable to bring out the subtle change in electrical phase required for soundstaging ?

 

[bhagwan]

Re: Rockport technologies

Bhagwan, this is more of a question than a comment;

But later i heard the Audio note with one of the SETs(not chinese..but dont recollect the name..ART audio ?) and that sounded leaps and bounds in a different category suddenly

Obviously you have had a huge exposure and have heard most of these in different settings and always with high quality upstream components..but how are you able to really say confidently that one speaker (at this level of performance) is definitely better than the other ?

Maybe it is a cable or even the source system which is unable to bring out the subtle change in electrical phase required for soundstaging ?

Uploaded with ImageShack.com
Uploaded with ImageShack.com

This was a few years back - 2009 [I think]
Was this what you heard in Singapore ? Cause this is me in Singapore a few years back - same showroom...

You are right, I cannot say for sure - what it is;
However, with a few years of listening & getting a small amount of audio exposure, I can 'extrapolate' [no scientific method is employed]
Therefore, I cannot give any hard core 'reason' as to why, but it does happen - maybe it could be my 'imagination' but then again, I have no 'cake to bake' here - so there is no need for any 'polarization' or 'bias' I report what I listen to. Either it is OK, or it is not....
What Cables can do, sure they make changes, but as I said in my earlier post, all that is the perogative of the person that owns the system & sets it up...What he chooses to use i.e.