I knew about equilateral distance between speakers and the listener for best stereo imaging in studio monitors. What surprised me is several high end speakers also suggest equilateral triangle for best imaging (B&W, Monitor Audio etc). This is often tough for those who use speakers for both HT and stereo music. How do you place your speakers with respect to your listening position.
Stereo listening position. - Does equilateral works for you?
- Thread starter matbhuvi
- Start date
Treat it as a starting point because your room will have it's own influence on the sound.
The closer you are to the speakers the more direct waves you encounter with reflected waves having less of an effect.
Play around with the speaker and seat position to see what you prefer - that's the most important.
.
The closer you are to the speakers the more direct waves you encounter with reflected waves having less of an effect.
Play around with the speaker and seat position to see what you prefer - that's the most important.
.
Our room is a rectangular 13 ft L X 11 ft W & H.
The front and surround bookshelf speakers are wall mounted at approx 9 ft height with a subwoofer near the left wall.
I sit in the center, I would say it is more of an isosceles triangle.
Since 6 seating positions are calibrated via Audyssey XT 32, it does not pose any issues for HT or stereo. Room correction does help to an extent .
Or I guess maybe my ears have adjusted to the shortcomings which I don't seem to notice.
I have found the best benefit via placement of Speakers and listening position relative to walls rather between themselves, hence it more of an Isosceles.
ie speakers placed approximately1/3rd room length from rear and exactly 1/3rd side length from side wall ( measured from front/inner side)
Listening position approximately 1/5th from rear wall.
keep moving this to get the best spot.
ie speakers placed approximately1/3rd room length from rear and exactly 1/3rd side length from side wall ( measured from front/inner side)
Listening position approximately 1/5th from rear wall.
keep moving this to get the best spot.
depends on the manufacturer specs, especially the tweeter off-axis response and the bass response (if it is recommended to put them in the corners, close to the back wall or drawn out). Also depends on the room and its constrains.
In a rectangular room with minimal treatment, I prefer the speakers placed against the long wall and in a squarish room, I prefer near field listening. My favoured position is minimal directivity to the listening position (i.e No toe-in) as it gives me the best stage. It may not produce a larger sweet spot, as that is not my preference.
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sachinchavan 15865
Well-Known Member
While it might differ with speakers, I’ve found that any distance (from the speakers) shorter than an equilateral affects the imaging (focus of the central image which is usually the vocals/ main instrument). So I consider that the bare minimum distance. One could sit farther (therefore creating an isosceles triangle), and still enjoy the imaging, but then you don’t get to enjoy an enveloping soundstage, The equilateral point, for me, works as the best optimum between imaging and soundstage.
As for the length of the equilateral triangle (also the distance between the speakers, it’d depend on the speakers (and perhaps also the room) - with my bookshelves it’s around 7 ft. Room dimensions and existing furniture also pose challenges in getting the most optimum position.
Toe in (angling of the speakers) is another factor which some manufacturers specify and listeners prefer. I have always preferred straight on (no toe in) with my speakers as well as the few other speakers I’ve heard. I’ve experienced that toe in makes the image thicker/bolder (some like it), but adversely affects separation and nuances. Those who prefer toe in suggest angling just enough to get the intersection point of imaginary lines drawn from the two tweeters just behind your head.
As for distance from the front wall, my speakers (rear ported) sound the best at a 1 ft separation. Earlier I used to draw them further up, liking the clarity (I thought) that produced. But with time and some mentoring I realised how that was a pseudo effect with the bass getting reduced. What I needed to do was actually reduce the distortion through other means (tightening the speaker stand and cable connections for example) to improve the clarity. The one foot separation is where i get enough bass response to make it sound musical. Once I experienced that every time I pulled the speakers further out I’d miss on the emotion and enjoyment.
P.S: I took the liberty of expanding the scope of your question to other aspects of speaker positioning. Also, my speakers and sitting arrangement are all towards one end of a rectangular room, with almost 60% of the room space behind me. It is said that there should be sufficient room space behind you in your listening position.
As for the length of the equilateral triangle (also the distance between the speakers, it’d depend on the speakers (and perhaps also the room) - with my bookshelves it’s around 7 ft. Room dimensions and existing furniture also pose challenges in getting the most optimum position.
Toe in (angling of the speakers) is another factor which some manufacturers specify and listeners prefer. I have always preferred straight on (no toe in) with my speakers as well as the few other speakers I’ve heard. I’ve experienced that toe in makes the image thicker/bolder (some like it), but adversely affects separation and nuances. Those who prefer toe in suggest angling just enough to get the intersection point of imaginary lines drawn from the two tweeters just behind your head.
As for distance from the front wall, my speakers (rear ported) sound the best at a 1 ft separation. Earlier I used to draw them further up, liking the clarity (I thought) that produced. But with time and some mentoring I realised how that was a pseudo effect with the bass getting reduced. What I needed to do was actually reduce the distortion through other means (tightening the speaker stand and cable connections for example) to improve the clarity. The one foot separation is where i get enough bass response to make it sound musical. Once I experienced that every time I pulled the speakers further out I’d miss on the emotion and enjoyment.
P.S: I took the liberty of expanding the scope of your question to other aspects of speaker positioning. Also, my speakers and sitting arrangement are all towards one end of a rectangular room, with almost 60% of the room space behind me. It is said that there should be sufficient room space behind you in your listening position.
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ajuvignesh
Well-Known Member
I follow similar placement. My speakers are positioned 1/3 of the room length from the front wall and 1/5 th for the side walls. I sit 1/5 from the rear wall. The speakers are toed in 15 degrees.
This gives me a good center image and good width and decent depth for the soundstage. Also, the vocals are more thick and has good textures with this placement.
One word: tinkering.
If you toe in a lot it is bright, but if you toe out it is soft.
In an imperfect world, equalisers matter a lot. when everything else doesn't work. Room treatment is great and fancy but according to me there is a much cheaper way to enoy great music! GEQ & PEQ. Purists - please spare me but it works for me
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reignofchaos
Well-Known Member
My experience pretty much mirrors this. You get a wide, deep sound stage with exceptional center image and also end up not having to deal with room related problems to a large extent. My current room has the speakers firing almost straight with very little toe in (maybe 3-5 degrees).
The only real issue I faced was slight leanness in bass with my ATCs which I alleviated recently with a sub. The floorstanding blumenhofers have no such problems as they have much more bass impact and drive.
Interesting...my setup is not like that. In mine, if i move 3 feet back, i see the imaging also moved back by couple of feet at least. I don't mind that for instruments, staging...but i couldn't live with it for the vocals and midrange. On the other hand, if i increase the volume (at least by 20% more), it compensates for the distance. That also means constantly listening at 85db+ at 8.5ft. I definitely preferred the equilatarel (may be slightly off axis) for low volume listening for sure.
This works perfectly for stereo listening. For some like me who use the same speakers for HT as well, and on a small room (10x14), placement is a challenge. I just added one more chair to the room for stereo listening so that i can sit forward for stereo. For HT, my recliners are on the rear wall. Compromises.
85dB is too loud for my listening. Mine is around 70dB to max 75dB at 6 feet distance on my sofa or other locations. In reality the image should not move when you move.
Take the analogy of your wife speaking with you in your kitchen and during the conversation she stays in the kitchen but you are moving towards bedroom. Her voice does not move with you towards the bedroom. She might sound lower, but still you know her location at the kitchen from where her voice is coming.
What if one is not married
. On a serious note that's a vague analogy, even though the voice is coming from the kitchen, you cannot make out if she is standing next to the basin or pantry or the stove of the kitchen when speaking. When you leave the room and move to a different room the sound is audible but that doesn't mean the Imaging is accurate.Its not the Imaging that's moving forward or backwards it is likely the decrease in volume because you move 3 ft back which is compensated by the increasing the volume. Whether or not is a equilateral triangle should not affect low or high volume listening.
Passive_audio_enthusiast
Well-Known Member
equailateral triangle is how it should be to hear the recording the way it was made at the studio. Again depending on what speakers and what room you are in, the distance between speakers can be longer to have a wider stage. Keeping them closer than eq. Triangle kills the seperation.
I agree that it can vary by speakers. If I chart waterfall graph, the high frequency roll off is not exactly same as midrange on varying off axisWhat if one is not married
I just attached some random profile view from internet just for reference. The highs tend to roll off in a different way when compared to mids in off axis. And the base notes don't care about off axis at all. This is what I meant the change in Imaging.
Attachments
Off-axis rolloff of highs is natural. The directivity os getting affected here and because of that the mids and highs are not able to keep directional cues offaxis. This can be reduced by minor toeing and listening closer to the speakers
sachinchavan 15865
Well-Known Member
This is how one imagined soundstage gets created in the recording. (However, I’ve also felt that mono tracks also have their own charm).
Also, as I watched the video I wondered what if the software was more visually controllable? The panning done by moving the track around the screen than by percentages, for example. Or volume by increasing the size by pinching out etc. That’d be more fun and intuitive!
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