System with Altec 604-8G drivers

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Re: Altec 604 8G drivers....Rocking Now..!!!

Hi,



I think you are misinterpreting/misunderstood what I have said in other posts . What I have said many times is that when building systems around vintage speakers/amps it is better to be sympathetic to the design philosophy and intent of the original designers.


The old Altecs were designed with the low damping factor tube amps with high Z.(not so sure about the 604G but the earlier ones certainly were).That is not to say you can't use SS amps with them, but SS amps with high damping factors and low Z don't sound right to me with these type of drivers. This is my opinion but then different strokes for different folks.:)

I am sure Manav has done his homework when he committed to Kanwar's design.:)

Regards
Rajiv

You only assume that they have such philosophy and intent, rather than more practical and realistic things like budgets and deadlines.

I find that's something of a cop out, particularly as an after the fact modder so many years later with the technology gap spanning the distance and the fact that you likely haven't the same budget or the same deadlines. You should be able to offer that much more, arguing only to the technology limits themselves for all of the hardware available before you.

It's a different argument conflating what yesteryear's technological capability was limited to versus the limits of modern technology. If you're speaking in terms of limits imposed by one over the other, then it's clear you're not being fair to one of them somewhere, and probably where it gets misrepresented.

Where misrepresentation happens is in the fear mongering tactic employed in calling into question how it responds instead with a low Z output with high damping. Surely there must be a system somewhere that doesn't respond as well to being driven in this completely conventional manner, we just haven't seen the proof of it today, and certainly not for this particular one. More important that we hold loyal to what we surmise their original farts smelled like at the time of the design.

But so long as we take the extended cop out of it all being totally subjective anyway, then what value would proof have in the argument either way.

In this way, audio _Engineering_ is little more involved than your typical haut couture show, with all of the esoteric and eccentric flavors, and all of the backroom dealings.
 
Re: Altec 604 8G drivers....Rocking Now..!!!

Hi,

Is that an obligation? Do you have any problem when someone tries the vintage driver with new technology. If yes then kindly tell us why and if No, then why are you forcing your preference with Altec 288 over 604s, You might be fanboy of Altec 288 but that doesn't mean you should indirectly ridicule Manav's decision.

Going by your posts, one can easily make out that you are not happy with Manav's decision.

Please read all my posts on this forum. I have never sought to force my opinions down someones throat,unlike others with a commercial interest. I will state my opinions and listening preferences openly. It is for members to accept them or reject them.

Is it a crime to state ones opinion/preference on this forum?

While the path Manav has taken is not the one I have taken to get music in my home,if Manav is happy with his decision and the sound he is getting from his system why should I be unhappy?


Guys... Guys... Guys... One has to hear this implementation to believe it!!

Let's not start a row! All if you are well intentioned.

And Rajiv is a old HFV buddy. We might not have met yet, but we have had enuff telecons, emergency advice sessions in call and more! I know him enough to not question his intentions. I know he means well. So let us not try and interpret too much by his posts.

All he is saying is that the Iyer altec driver has even more charm.

And I agree.


But I cannot see it being implemented in all it's glory in my tiny listening room.

So until I make several million more rupees as extra income I cannot move to home with a huge basement where I can put up the VOTT in its full glory!

But if the good lord will it, maybe in this lifetime I'll get there!


Till then this 604 implementation it is. And I doubt if it can bettered that easily.

Thanks Manav.

I agree the VOTT or for that matter any speaker that uses a bass horn, cannot be used in a small room like yours optimally, and the Altec 604 is the best compromise one can make if one wants the Altec sound..

BTW I don't prefer heavy plinths for the Garrards either. My preference is medium weight plinths suspended on squash balls.;)

Regards
Rajiv
 
Re: Altec 604 8G drivers....Rocking Now..!!!

Where misrepresentation happens is in the fear mongering tactic employed in calling into question how it responds instead with a low Z output with high damping. Surely there must be a system somewhere that doesn't respond as well to being driven in this completely conventional manner, we just haven't seen the proof of it today, and certainly not for this particular one. More important that we hold loyal to what we surmise their original farts smelled like at the time of the design.

But so long as we take the extended cop out of it all being totally subjective anyway, then what value would proof have in the argument either way.

In this way, audio _Engineering_ is little more involved than your typical haut couture show, with all of the esoteric and eccentric flavors, and all of the backroom dealings.


Nicely put. Am in total agreement with what u have written.
 
Re: Altec 604 8G drivers....Rocking Now..!!!

Presenting the views is Okay but presenting them with a knack of implanting a bug in other's mind is an art which is being displayed by certain characters in this thread. Its like no matter what you have, mine is still superior then ya.:eek:hyeah:
 
Re: Altec 604 8G drivers....Rocking Now..!!!

End of the day, if Manav is 1 happy camper, who the hell are we to give sermons on what is right or what is wrong or for that matter advertise somebody Else's implementation of the same.

Life is short so let everyone of us enjoy the time we have left to the maximum & please ourselves with our passions than cribbing about my way is right & yours is wrong.

Enjoy the sunday with lots music & good company of like minded friends or family.

:cheers:
 
Re: Altec 604 8G drivers....Rocking Now..!!!

I feel Malvais choice of the drivers with active amplification, considering his listening preferences and the size of his room, is a good one.

Size of the room, apart from personal listening preferences, is a very important factor in deciding the speaker. I would love to have horns at my place. I have had several discussions with Viren on this. We had even finalised the drivers that would suit my listening preference. But at the end of the day, i am not sure horns will work in my room. So i guess one has to choose a speaker that is most likely to work in your room and float your boat.
 
Re: Altec 604 8G drivers....Rocking Now..!!!

Is that an obligation? Do you have any problem when someone tries the vintage driver with new technology. If yes then kindly tell us why and if No, then why are you forcing your preference with Altec 288 over 604s, You might be fanboy of Altec 288 but that doesn't mean you should indirectly ridicule Manav's decision.

Going by your posts, one can easily make out that you are not happy with Manav's decision.
Hi, if you read the posts again and in perspective, I don't think Rajiv mentioned any of his comments in a bad taste. For people like me, who have not yet seen so many vintage drivers in their various implementations, it is always good to learn from the ones who have. We listen to everything ourselves and then take the call. If we like something, that's the end of the story.

@ Rajiv - I have also listened to Viren Sir's implementation with the other Altec driver, in fact a couple of times but for very brief durations, but I found that it is a completely different flavor. However, I am not in a position to say whether I like it or not because we did not listen to so many genres of music as we did last evening at Manav's. I will definitely request Viren Sir again sometime soon to let me come for a listening session. But what I felt yesterday after listening to so many tracks at Manav's place, the music was really flowing. Honestly, I did not want to think about what amplifier was there, what part the DAC was playing, but the best part was the music just sounded so good. Whatever was played, I really enjoyed it. Viren Sir always says, the equipment should all just disappear from your mind when you are listening to music, and that is what exactly happened for me yesterday.
The only thing that I kept thinking about the speakers were, how I wish I could own such a pair. :)

@Manav - Thank you so much for being a wonderful host. Really was a great evening. I am glad I could meet so many people who care about their music so much.

Cheers !!
 
Re: Altec 604 8G drivers....Rocking Now..!!!

I feel Malvais choice of the drivers with active amplification, considering his listening preferences and the size of his room, is a good one.

With active processing of XO and amplification you have much better flexibility of tailoring the response of the system to one's liking. ;)


Size of the room, apart from personal listening preferences, is a very important factor in deciding the speaker. I would love to have horns at my place. I have had several discussions with Viren on this. We had even finalised the drivers that would suit my listening preference. But at the end of the day, i am not sure horns will work in my room. So i guess one has to choose a speaker that is most likely to work in your room and float your boat.

If you want Lata Mangeshkar's voice to sound to near perfect manner, go with Dual concentric horns just like coaxial drivers. The dual concentric horns yield very powerful imaging, ultimate vocal dynamism and wide sound stage.
 
Re: Altec 604 8G drivers....Rocking Now..!!!

Would request all the FM's who were present in the meet to present their views regarding the listening session at Malvai's place.


Would love to hear from you guys, likes & dislikes..... :)
 
Re: Altec 604 8G drivers....Rocking Now..!!!

Thanks Kanwar. What are dual concentric horns? Is there any link where i can read more about it?
 
Re: Altec 604 8G drivers....Rocking Now..!!!

Thanks Kanwar. What are dual concentric horns? Is there any link where i can read more about it?

One such horn is Synergy horn, its a point source horn but with multiple drivers.

hey can be made into 2 way or 3 way and require much less space. Their coverage spectrum is from Midbass to extended HF.

Multiple_entry_horn.png


sh96_specifications_3_03.png


The coherency and the phase remains intact in such horns.
 
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Re: Altec 604 8G drivers....Rocking Now..!!!

Cool. Thanks Kanwar. Will read about it
 
Re: Altec 604 8G drivers....Rocking Now..!!!

These horns are exceptionally fast and transients are explosive. The dynamics are amazing with clarity , detail and precision. A very evolving experience they present when listening at low volumes.
 
Re: Altec 604 8G drivers....Rocking Now..!!!

Guys......got back home last night after an enriching 5 hour session, listening to Manavs Altecs. It was a great evening and Manav being the perfect host made us all feel right at home.

Got a chance to meet the other senior, more experienced and knowledgeable members of the forum and it was a pleasure to meet them all in person.

Now about the Music and the Altecs.

The Massive Altecs in the huge Cabinet look absolutely stunning in real life and the sheer simplicity of the design and the neat woodwork and natural teak wood finish is breathtaking.

We played many genres of music ranging from Jazz to Ghazals , and it was as if the floodgates of a dam had been opened and the white water was flowing downstream effortlessly towards you and engulfing you with its sheer energy. That is how the sound was....flowing,wholesome,organic lifelike....natural ...i could go on and on.

But then iam not an audiophile and the adjectives i use to describe the sound may not comply with the standards of an Audiophile dictionary. I loved what i heard. (Period)

That said.....we played some tracks through Youtube and lot of regular and non audiophile stuff and the speakers just handled all of it effortlessly...that is what a speaker is intended to do.

Played this track through You tube cover of "Rich Girl" by the "Lake Street Dive" which i was really familiar with. If the voice of Rachael Price hits you like a whiff of fresh air and you hear the individual twangs of the Upright Bass of Bridget Kearney coming to you like lil pressure waves and the trumpet of Mike Olson and the drums get your feet tapping..........+1 to your system too.

Lake Street Dive - Rich Girl (Live @Pickathon 2013) - YouTube.


and this one too if you're having a boring Sunday.

Lake Street Dive - "Stop Your Crying" - YouTube.

Kudos to Manav and Kanwar for challenging the paradigms and creating something magical which i could only have imagined in my dreams.

Cheers.
Harry.

Have a Rocking Sunday.
 
Re: Altec 604 8G drivers....Rocking Now..!!!

Hi,



I think you are misinterpreting/misunderstood what I have said in other posts . What I have said many times is that when building systems around vintage speakers/amps it is better to be sympathetic to the design philosophy and intent of the original designers.


The old Altecs were designed with the low damping factor tube amps with high Z.(not so sure about the 604G but the earlier ones certainly were).That is not to say you can't use SS amps with them, but SS amps with high damping factors and low Z don't sound right to me with these type of drivers. This is my opinion but then different strokes for different folks.:)

I am sure Manav has done his homework when he committed to Kanwar's design.:)

Regards
Rajiv


What is being sympathetic to the design philosophy ??

Are we still using dial phones?
Drive Ambassador?
Suffer from polio ?
In music too a large chuck of listners are listning Heavy Metal , Hip Hop ,EDM and Dubstep - which were not in 50's?


So why reliance on old technology when you are NOT bound with constraints ....


Unfortunately even in our engineering college you are taught to follow the book ( ask one of the victim - that's me :eek:hyeah::eek:hyeah: - by the way to save the world never worked in engineering!!)

May times it is said Think Different - unlearn or break the mould ... but person who breaks the mould is actively discouraged.

so why one should not reinterpret the past designs. Unless someone thinks and someone DOES - that is not possible.

There are always perceptions that something is NOT possible , something MUST be done in particular way

Simon Newcomb a Canadian-American astronomer and mathematician said that flying machines are NOT possible .(In 1903).( Ref - Wikipedia -

In the October 22, 1903, issue of The Independent, Newcomb made the well-known remark that "May not our mechanicians . . . be ultimately forced to admit that aerial flight is one of the great class of problems with which man can never cope, and give up all attempts to grapple with it?",[11] completed by the motivation that even if a man flew he could not stop. "Once he slackens his speed, down he begins to fall. Once he stops, he falls as a dead mass." He had no concept of an airfoil. His "aeroplane" was an inclined "thin flat board". He therefore concluded that it could never carry the weight of a man.
He may be having his own hypothesis.

Thankfully two fools may not have gone through this . They believed in themselves - and was working on something .

On December 17, 1903 Wright brother flew first successful plane.

:eek:hyeah::eek:hyeah::eek:hyeah::eek:hyeah::eek:hyeah:
 
Re: Altec 604 8G drivers....Rocking Now..!!!

Guys......got back home last night after an enriching 5 hour session, listening to Manavs Altecs. It was a great evening and Manav being the perfect host made us all feel right at home.

Got a chance to meet the other senior, more experienced and knowledgeable members of the forum and it was a pleasure to meet them all in person.

Now about the Music and the Altecs.

The Massive Altecs in the huge Cabinet look absolutely stunning in real life and the sheer simplicity of the design and the neat woodwork and natural teak wood finish is breathtaking.

We played many genres of music ranging from Jazz to Ghazals , and it was as if the floodgates of a dam had been opened and the white water was flowing downstream effortlessly towards you and engulfing you with its sheer energy. That is how the sound was....flowing,wholesome,organic lifelike....natural ...i could go on and on.

Kudos to Manav and Kanwar for challenging the paradigms and creating something magical which i could only have imagined in my dreams.

Cheers.
Harry.

Have a Rocking Sunday.

Thank You Harry...... :)
 
Re: Altec 604 8G drivers....Rocking Now..!!!

Harry we must do a listening session with purely our kind of music with a couple of chilled beers in hand. Will make a plan in another week!

Meanwhile, I will let the burn-in process continue.
 
Re: Altec 604 8G drivers....Rocking Now..!!!

The 15 inch drivers working superbly in a small room with fantastic tight bass really opened my eyes and have very clearly showed the limitations of my bookshelves...

The finish of the speaker cabinet was very impressive and the size intimidating...
As the others have mentioned, we played a variety of music from Phil Collins, Jobim, Chris Rea, Jagjit Singh, youtube videos etc. For me the standout was the ability to play the low frequencies which I thought was just right and the details it brought out even from the youtube videos....The big cabinet makes the bass sound tight and deep and the mids nice and clear with all the details....The higher frequencies I felt were a little recessed but since they were played for only 60 hours, I think they will open out a bit more....

Cannot understand why the driver size has shrunk over the years as the 15 incher clearly showed what we are missing...Size and placements should not be an issue as Manav's listening room is quite small and there was no boom at all...


Manav, thanks for a wonderful evening and hearty congratulations.

Kanwar: superb job...my congratulations to you...
 
Re: Altec 604 8G drivers....Rocking Now..!!!

The 15 inch drivers working superbly in a small room with fantastic tight bass really opened my eyes and have very clearly showed the limitations of my bookshelves...

The finish of the speaker cabinet was very impressive and the size intimidating...
As the others have mentioned, we played a variety of music from Phil Collins, Jobim, Chris Rea, Jagjit Singh, youtube videos etc. For me the standout was the ability to play the low frequencies which I thought was just right and the details it brought out even from the youtube videos....The big cabinet makes the bass sound tight and deep and the mids nice and clear with all the details....The higher frequencies I felt were a little recessed but since they were played for only 60 hours, I think they will open out a bit more....

Cannot understand why the driver size has shrunk over the years as the 15 incher clearly showed what we are missing...Size and placements should not be an issue as Manav's listening room is quite small and there was no boom at all...


Manav, thanks for a wonderful evening and hearty congratulations.

Kanwar: superb job...my congratulations to you...

Thank You Rahul,

The bigger cones are naturally good at Lower Octaves, hence the result is a league apart from the smaller ones. Some people think bigger drivers need bigger rooms which is not correct. Only in case of certain horns you need a big space for them to breathe in. Bigger drivers make you enjoy the Bass with much better and fuller tones.
 
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Re: Altec 604 8G drivers....Rocking Now..!!!

Yep, it is Sunday afternoon, i could see from this post..:cheers::cheers:;) I too waiting for my friends to arrive.. See you guys..:p

What is being sympathetic to the design philosophy ??

Are we still using dial phones?
Drive Ambassador?
Suffer from polio ?
In music too a large chuck of listners are listning Heavy Metal , Hip Hop ,EDM and Dubstep - which were not in 50's?


So why reliance on old technology when you are NOT bound with constraints ....


Unfortunately even in our engineering college you are taught to follow the book ( ask one of the victim - that's me :eek:hyeah::eek:hyeah: - by the way to save the world never worked in engineering!!)

May times it is said Think Different - unlearn or break the mould ... but person who breaks the mould is actively discouraged.

so why one should not reinterpret the past designs. Unless someone thinks and someone DOES - that is not possible.

There are always perceptions that something is NOT possible , something MUST be done in particular way

Simon Newcomb a Canadian-American astronomer and mathematician said that flying machines are NOT possible .(In 1903).( Ref - Wikipedia -

In the October 22, 1903, issue of The Independent, Newcomb made the well-known remark that "May not our mechanicians . . . be ultimately forced to admit that aerial flight is one of the great class of problems with which man can never cope, and give up all attempts to grapple with it?",[11] completed by the motivation that even if a man flew he could not stop. "Once he slackens his speed, down he begins to fall. Once he stops, he falls as a dead mass." He had no concept of an airfoil. His "aeroplane" was an inclined "thin flat board". He therefore concluded that it could never carry the weight of a man.
He may be having his own hypothesis.

Thankfully two fools may not have gone through this . They believed in themselves - and was working on something .

On December 17, 1903 Wright brother flew first successful plane.

:eek:hyeah::eek:hyeah::eek:hyeah::eek:hyeah::eek:hyeah:
 
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