Time Aligned Interconnect Cables

bornfi

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Your desired answer was clearly addressed........ in Post #29 .......... above.

I was showing everyone the late Pierre Sprey's advice ...............from Mapleshade.

Paragraph three please.

Consider the magnitudes of these two signals. Which is most fragile.......and would be subject to the most subtle in transmission losses ???

Jeff

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Your two new Amps' ...... also make their AC cables, 114 1/14 inches long, 12 AWG, m22759/11/12, .... Apex Jr, Steve.
Thanks. Would you know if I use a long interconnect (XLR) of say 10 ft, would the degradation in signal be associated with power, dynamics, clarity or resolution?
 

Otpidus

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In the similar lines, if you were to choose between say, a 10ft speaker cable and 1ft interconnect (XLR) or 1ft speaker cable and 10 ft interconnect (XLR), what would you choose and why, if you could kindly explain? Basically, what I am trying to find out as to which option would be better in a setup consisting of a pair of monoblocks.
I am assuming you have a fully balanced chain. In that case 1ft or 10ft won’t have any perceivable difference. Since most of the noise is in the common mode form, and fully balanced chain is nearly immune to common mode noise, there won’t be a significant difference.

This is the reason why studios have fully balanced chain for recording.

If you have an unbalanced chain, you need to keep the interconnect short as it’s more vulnerable between the two.

Well yes. This has been known and solidly proven for at least 100 years. Now as you no doubt know, at RF frequencies, transmission line factors come into play and cable impedance becomes more critical. Still shorter is always better provided that is taken to consideration. But what is of question here is this 57&1/8in specific length, or multiples thereof. Your TV transmission theory is of some interest but keep in mind that every country has different RF spectrum allocations as well as different video formats, even in the an analog days. So this precise cable length is hardly universal in any case. The promoters of this theory have not been able to provide any peer reviewed scientific data to back up the claims.
As far as I know and remember correctly, TV and Radio Spectrum allocation varies very little from country to country. A radio or tv purchased from one country works perfectly in another country.

I agree with you that the lengths mentioned doesn't come with any explanation. That’s the precise reason why I tried to find an explanation for at-least one of the length.
 
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Hari Iyer

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Since you made this, I take your words that it sounds different and better in your system.


Since the Signal goes through multiple active components (Pre / power amps) including different circuit boards, Volume pots, RCA connectors & internal wiring, what is your opinion about time smearing happening during each of these and how to eliminate them ?
My entire setup from my source, to internal wiring, my volume potentiometer etc etc etc all use this time aligned wire. Also my speaker internal wiring use this time aligned wire :)-
 

rajan-

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My entire setup from my source, to internal wiring, my volume potentiometer etc etc etc all use this time aligned wire. Also my speaker internal wiring use this time aligned wire :)-
thats mighty impressive that you dont have a single PCB in the end-to-end signal path to contaminate / screwup time alignment.

and in a test you can differentiate if you replace just one interconnect cable (not speaker cable)

My preamplifier is a passive volume control. My digital source is a passive LPF based on audio transformers. All internal wiring of the device use this time aligned wires. My power amplifier use pure silver wires in the RCA to driver tube. The speaker internal wiring also use this time aligned wire.

I was able to remove all inductors and capacitors from my speaker crossover just by replacing the previous silver plated copper wire with my time aligned wire. You can imagine from this how much the HF gets attenuated with this wire. It has an effect of roll-off without any gain loss. Mind you I have used all 99+% pure wires with just air + silicon sleeve. When I measure impulse response of my speakers, at my sweet spot, i get zero time delay.
 
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Dr.Gary

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As far as I know and remember correctly, TV and Radio Spectrum allocation varies very little from country to country. A radio or tv purchased from one country works perfectly in another country.

I agree with you that the lengths mentioned doesn't come with any explanation. That’s the precise reason why I tried to find an explanation for at-least one of the length.
I thought that the issue of length (57" vs 114"), as it pertains to loudspeaker cables, was sonic accuracy, not noise pickup. If so, then the subject of this thread has gotten seriously derailed by noise considerations what, in my opinion, have no relevance whatsoever. .
 

RtoR King

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As far as I know and remember correctly, TV and Radio Spectrum allocation varies very little from country to country. A radio or tv purchased from one country works perfectly in another country.

I agree with you that the lengths mentioned doesn't come with any explanation. That’s the precise reason why I tried to find an explanation for at-least one of the length.
Actually the frequencies are different enough to where TVs from different countries continents do not work. Perhaps the key word here is continents, not countries. For example, Mexico, Canada and the USA are the same. Same for some European countries. But video formats, especially analog color encoding systems were quite different. NTSC, PAL, SECAM with variants. Even in the digital age we have differences. Europe is mostly DVB whereas as North America is 8VSB - totally incompatible for OTA RF reception. While the 50/60 hz frame rate differences still remains, current digital technology can easily accept most any video format over HDMI. Broadcast engineering is my field of electronics.

I was able to remove all inductors and capacitors from my speaker crossover just by replacing the previous silver plated copper wire with my time aligned wire. You can imagine from this how much the HF gets attenuated with this wire. It has an effect of roll-off without any gain loss. Mind you I have used all 99+% pure wires with just air + silicon sleeve. When I measure impulse response of my speakers, at my sweetspot, i get zero time delay.
Did you measure this electrically and acoustically? I find it hard to accept that typical speaker crossover capacitors and inductors can be replaced with reasonable lengths of any hookup wire. For example a common 8ohm tweeter capacitor value is 5-8uf. It would take a lot of interconnect or hookup wire capacitance to simulate that. Same for the Woofer inductors.

Also rolloff is still gain loss. It's just gain loss at a specific frequency band. That' what filters (speaker crossovers) do.

You need to be especially careful with tweeters. If too much low end signal is present it can easily burn out the voice coil. No tweeter can take much more than a few watts below say 1khz no matter what the spec sheet says. Barring burnout, excessive LF on a tweeter will cause considerable HF distortion.
 

Otpidus

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I thought that the issue of length (57" vs 114"), as it pertains to loudspeaker cables, was sonic accuracy, not noise pickup. If so, then the subject of this thread has gotten seriously derailed by noise considerations what, in my opinion, have no relevance whatsoever. .
If preserving analog waveform from external noise is not an integral part of sonic accuracy then my apologies for derailing the thread.
 

Hari Iyer

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Did you measure this electrically and acoustically? I find it hard to accept that typical speaker crossover capacitors and inductors can be replaced with reasonable lengths of any hookup wire. For example a common 8ohm tweeter capacitor value is 5-8uf. It would take a lot of interconnect or hookup wire capacitance to simulate that. Same for the Woofer inductors.

Also rolloff is still gain loss. It's just gain loss at a specific frequency band. That' what filters (speaker crossovers) do.

You need to be especially careful with tweeters. If too much low end signal is present it can easily burn out the voice coil. No tweeter can take much more than a few watts below say 1khz no matter what the spec sheet says. Barring burnout, excessive LF on a tweeter will cause considerable HF distortion.
Inductors have been removed from woofer and midrange. I am getting the same flat response with the TA wire as I was getting from SP copper wire + inductors. The wire resistance of inductors can cause attenuation of 1/2 to 1db in pass band too, which is not happening in my TA wire. I have restored my first order filter in my tweeter from second order using this TA wired which gives me better dynamics.
 

Dr.Gary

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If preserving analog waveform from external noise is not an integral part of sonic accuracy then my apologies for derailing the thread.
It all depends on how you define sonic accuracy. For example, the fact that there is smoke in a room has nothing whatsoever to do with the accuracy of the reproduced picture that is displayed on the tv screen.
 

alpha1

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@Hari Iyer what about the identical path lengths of left and right cables? How are you ensuring that the difference between the two is within nano meters?
Same way, what about the distance between the drivers and the ear? How do you ensure that the lengths are identical within tolerance of micrometers?
You would agree that any mismatch in the above two will produce a far dramatic effect than the smearing caused by difference in speed of different frequencies.
 

sachinchavan 15865

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There’s a clear statemate in this discussion.

On one side, despite being given scientific explanations by multiple members, the OP/creator Hari is not willing to question his contention of frequencies travelling at different speeds within cables (and therefore needing time alignment). His supporters too, instead of proving the contention scientifically, are demanding auditioning which won’t help settle the issue as even if the performance of the cables is superlative, it doesn’t prove the hypothesis as that performance can be due to numerous other factors done well.

And on the other hand, members on the other side of the argumenhbare repeating the same contention/logic in different words, leading us nowhere further. Worse, some members are questioning in ways that can sound condescending/sarcastic to the OP who, as most of us older members know, is a competent speaker builder with high quality products that some other members are using and deserves respect even if he were wrong on this particular point.

Unless there’s any newer theoretical/empirical proof that can be presented beyond what’s already on the thread, it’d just keep going in circles.

Or for being sarcastic at the right time. :)

Sarcastic comments are clearly against the forum rules. Here are some extracts from the forum rules thread:

Do's
  • Be Polite.
Dont's
  • Don't be unpleasant or disruptive.
    [*]Don't post irrelevant content not related to the topic.
    [*]Don't make sarcastic comments and/or snide remarks.
Source:
Thread 'Adherence to forum rules'
https://www.hifivision.com/threads/adherence-to-forum-rules.55475/
 

jls001

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@Hari Iyer what about the identical path lengths of left and right cables? How are you ensuring that the difference between the two is within nano meters?
Same way, what about the distance between the drivers and the ear? How do you ensure that the lengths are identical within tolerance of micrometers?
You would agree that any mismatch in the above two will produce a far dramatic effect than the smearing caused by difference in speed of different frequencies.
Micrometric and nanometric accuracy is not required for making a simple interconnect cable. You are probably being pedantic but do try and realise what tiny units of measurement micro and nano meters are. Your demand/expectation is plainly unrealistic and unreasonable. For home use, audio cables are usually specified/measured in feet or meter so even a millimeter or two here and there don't matter that much.
 

Hiten

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This thread needs humor and then closure. :p

We all should be good Audio Homies.
Dont be mutated in to Audio Zombies.

HF getting ahead is against the odds.
No need to form any squabble squads.

Trumpets dont come ahead of drums.
Both reach speaker when signal comes.

Hundreds of studios across the globe
Cables of few meters do easily cope.

If anyone is saying Studios are not pros.
are doomed to listen first highs than lows.

here is link to studio monitor console inside LINK.

All members are my friends so dont feel personal.
Regards
 

mbhangui

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This thread needs humor and then closure. :p

We all should be good Audio Homies.
Dont be mutated in to Audio Zombies.

HF getting ahead is against the odds.
No need to form any squabble squads.

Trumpets dont come ahead of drums.
Both reach speaker when signal comes.

Hundreds of studios across the globe
Cables of few meters do easily cope.

If anyone is saying Studios are not pros.
are doomed to listen first highs than lows.

here is link to studio monitor console inside LINK.

All members are my friends so dont feel personal.
Regards
Superb :D :D :D
 

Hari Iyer

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The cables to which you refer may well be magical in terms of their subjective sonic performance, but that is not because of any alleged HF/MF/LF time alignment. That is because the velocity of wave propagation in a cable that has metal conductors is frequency independent. In other words, the time that it takes for an audio signal to travel from one end of the cable to the other end is the same regardless of the frequency of the audio signal. .
You are wrong.
 

RtoR King

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You are wrong.
Then can you show us some test data to validate what you hear? Nobody but you can hear exactly what you hear - or what anybody else hears for that matter. So we need to repeatable measurements so that others may experience the same results. That's how science works.

Dr Gary may in fact be wrong based solely on what you may hear. But he is far from wrong based on established and universally accepted scientific and engineering knowledge.
 

surfatwork

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Here is a thought: maybe the scientific explanation is not perfect but the outcome (sound quality) is still good.
I am sure the cables sound fantastic in the OP's system playing in his room. If the scientific explanation was only imperfect, I am sure we would all have pitched in to try and figure out the right explanation. But when someone argues that the moon is made of cheese, it's difficult to take things forward.
 

aeroash

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But when someone argues that the moon is made of cheese, it's difficult to take things forward.
This goes both ways. At least the objective side is presenting an explanation.

The OP has three choices, and he's made two of these:
1) It sounds good to me, and I do not have a scientific explanation or data to back it up - Fair enough
2) I'll regurgitate something with no scientific basis - Pseudoscience
3) Tell someone they're wrong and give no explanation as to why - Haughtiness
 
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