Dubai HFV (Mini) Meet & Marantz CD 6003 vs. Emotiva ERC-1 CD Player Shootout

The only inference one can draw is how these two players will perform with these specific components in this particular room.

Quite possibly square_wave. But then, I would risk saying that most members' living rooms will closely resemble mine, possibly with the addition of a carpet. Keep in mind this is not a professional review but of a user. On the other hand, quite a few of the professional reviewers in stereophile and audioholics perform reviews in their home environments which I would say are quite normal (by North American standards) with very few acoustic treatments.

Reviewing cd players and inferring conclusions about them cannot be done this way.

Could you please explain how the reviews should be done, especially by an end user? esantosh posted a link where in an end user had done a very scientific review by measuring voltage outputs, frequency responses, error corrections etc but that was done over a period of 6 weeks time. I had mentioned in the review that it was subjective since I do not have the equipment or time to do any sort of technical reviews.


If you replicate this test in a reference grade two channel system in a well-treated room you will come to a different conclusion. Maybe the emotiva will still win but unless you do that, one can never say !

Again probably yes. But my listening environment does not contain reference grade equipment nor a treated room. I expect the CD player I purchase to perform well in my setup and in my environment. It is possible that a CD player that performs brilliantly in a reference level setup could fail miserably in my untreated room. But then I would never purchase such a CD player that cannot perform well in a normal environment simply because I do not have a treated environment nor do I intend to do acoustic treatments in my listening environment.

Also, if I may add, the term reference level is open ended as what one considers as reference level may well be considered as just mid-fi by another who owns much more expensive equipment! By the same analogy, while I consider my setup as mid-fi, I have seen members here with much more expensive setup mentioning theirs as mid-fi! Hi-fi is a path to infinity after all:)

1. A speaker with a rolled off top end can make a balanced cd player sound as if it is rolled off in the top end. In this setup, a bright cd player will win.

2. An amp which is having a tough time controlling the woofer in the lower frequencies (most AVRs fall into this category) can make a full range reference grade cd player sound boomy in the lows. A cd player with a rolled off low end will sound tight and nice in this setup.

Unfortunately the Diamond 10.7 has not been tested well enough to get the roll-off numbers. However, a German hi-fi site tested the 10.7 and found that the speakers are pretty linear except for a dip in 150 - 600 Hz which is usually midrange. And the site mentions that the dip in the mid range does not sound bad at all. Please see here: Wharfedale Diamond 10.7 review

Besides, if we were supposed to hear roll-offs, then we did not hear any roll-off in highs. Both the CD players did produce the highs. It's just that the soundstage created by the Emotiva was so much more better and clearer than the Marantz.

Neither of the CD players sounded boomy at all. Again I am not a professional reviewer but at no point did we feel that the Onkyo 876 had any problems producing required bass.

The frequency response of the Marantz starts from 2 Hz and the Emotiva starts from 0 Hz. However there are a few things to consider even before the low end roll-off. First,the frequency response of the speakers. The frequency response of Wharfedale Diamond 10.7 (which I own) is 30 Hz - 24 Khz. Secondly the human ability to hear anything below 30 Hz. If I am not wrong, humans cannot hear any frequency below 30 Hz and one can only feel it. Even to feel it, one requires a subwoofer that can actually go below 30 Hz in a controlled manner - very few subs can do that and they usually are expensive. I do not have such a subwoofer and hence my mentioning in the review that I did not use a subwoofer for testing.

And, most of us have our own roll-offs as we get older, i.e., our ability to hear the low-lows and high-highs reduces as we age. While I am in very early 30's, still we need to consider the factors I have stated above when we discuss about roll-offs and the ability of the stereo system to produce clean extreme lows & highs.

Bottom line is, while the CD players may perform differently in reference level system setup in an acoustically treated environment, all it matters to me and I dare say, a lot of members is how it performs in a typical listening environment. My living room is a typical listening environment. And while it is quite common to disrespect an AVR for it's stereo performance, I will post a comparison of the stereo performance of the 876 to a decent amp such as Marantz PM8003. Hopefully that comparison will settle it.
 
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Hi Dilip,
I completely agree with you from an end-user perspective. I am sure the review is very pertinent to folks with similar gear and in typical living rooms.

My point was about the absolute truth when it comes to a review. Things change as you change gear and rooms. Especially as you move to more resolving gear. When you setup such gear in an ideal listening room paying attention to all aspects of setup....things will start sounding very different. Your conclusions too will change. I have seen this happen time and again. Hence my comments !

Enjoy the music ! :)
 
hi dilip

Glad you are happy with the 876 ,i very well hope that the issues of the 875 has been updated in the newer version/876
I have not stated problems in my 875 , i have noticed and made people know the shortcomings of the 875
.
I wud advice you not to go in for any product based on a review from a magazine ,its one mans opinion .he definetly will not have a particular unit with him for long to notice its shortcomings,instead user reviews are more helpful .

The SnV review of 875 outputting 180-190 watts /channel in stereo by the 875 seems to be blunderous!!!!! ,have done a side by side comparision of the 875 with a small sondyne integrated stereo amp @ 60 watts /channel @ 8 ohms (SA -102, dont remember its exact model no:) Being a small amp @ abt 60 watts /channel it still did outperform the AVR in all depts.
(comparing a 2 channel amp with an AVR is not fair, just letting u know bcoz of you having stated the SnV review)

I disliked the sound of the 875 in all modes (pure/direct/stereo/DSP etc etc) in the very first month of use ,
since then have always used external power amps for all channels .As you rightly said that my spkrs are power hungry ,and the duty of the 875 was only as a pre for HT only , so the question of listening to whatever levels doesnt arise at all as there is absolutely no load on the AVR

For me a product needs to deliver its best @ whatever levels when i do have the facility to drive them well enough, and this particular model failed even when there was not much of load on it,


I do believe the 9 series are better built
.

Hi Subhash,

I agree that professional reviewers do not own products and it is better to go with user reviews. That's why I checked the TX-SR875/876 owners thread in AVSForum before making my decision. Compared to the other Onkyo models, the number of reported problems in the 875/876 has been very less and the owners of these models seem to be a happy lot! On the other hand, reviews from technically inclined sites like S&V also help in the decision making process. Here's the S&V link to the 875 test results if you're interested:

Sound & Vision Magazine - Test Bench: Onkyo TX-SR875 A/V Receiver

The quality of sound as we perceive depends not just on the amp / receiver but also on the source and the speakers. It is possible that you did not like the combination of Onkyo with Jamo:) On the other hand, just yesterday one of our members kittu1977 purchased Jamo C405 speakers to pair it with the Onkyo TX-SR608 he purchased from me. Amp / speaker combinations are very personal, subject to the right notes heard by your ears and accepted by your heart I guess:)

I'm surprised your 875 goes into protection mode even while being used just as a pre. I know that you started a thread here about the issue, but did you try contacting Onkyo? What did they say about it?



Too late ... he already bought it!! :)

One has to be very lucky to hit the right gear in the very first attempt. Over time one decides about the shortcomings of the gear one owns and an upgrade become due ... :) When its new in the first year, one only soaks in what it provides before new light dawns upon the HiFi owner. Not that I have passed a verdict on the 876 but its the normal course of an audiophiles life ... :eek:hyeah:

So the timing of your suggestion is late by a few months and probably more "listenable" a year down the line .. he will probably be more receptive then ... ;)

Cheers

Gobble,

When Subhash saw that I was going to purchase the 876, he was kind enough to contact me via PM and caution me about the issue he had with his 875. We had an exchange over PM and it became clear to me that the 875 would not fit Subhash' needs. However, I also came to know about his 875 being used as a pre of late and yet it goes into protection mode. But then, the feedbackof owners of 875/876 in AVSForum was overwhelmingly positive hence I purchased it knowing all about Subhash' experience. Besides, I got it for a steal:)

You may be surprised, but I purchased the speaker package & 876 after 3 months of evaluation and I quite knew what I was buying and how long I will stick with it. This gear will stay with me for the next 2 - 3 years (stand infront of god and pray everyday to not to give into the seductress called temptation;)) and in that time, I will get myself acquinted with other speakers / amp and gradually decide what gear would go into my dedicated music / reading room when I build one:)
 
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Hi Subhash,

I agree that professional reviewers do not own products and it is better to go with user reviews. That's why I checked the TX-SR875/876 owners thread in AVSForum before making my decision. Compared to the other Onkyo models, the number of reported problems in the 875/876 has been very less and the owners of these models seem to be a happy lot! On the other hand, reviews from technically inclined sites like S&V also help in the decision making process. Here's the S&V link to the 875 test results if you're interested:

Sound & Vision Magazine - Test Bench: Onkyo TX-SR875 A/V Receiver

The quality of sound as we perceive depends not just on the amp / receiver but also on the source and the speakers. It is possible that you did not like the combination of Onkyo with Jamo:) On the other hand, just yesterday one of our members kittu1977 purchased Jamo C405 speakers to pair it with the Onkyo TX-SR608 he purchased from me. Amp / speaker combinations are very personal, subject to the right notes heard by your ears and accepted by your heart I guess:)

I'm surprised your 875 goes into protection mode even while being used just as a pre. I know that you started a thread here about the issue, but did you try contacting Onkyo? What did they say about it?





Gobble,

When Subhash saw that I was going to purchase the 876, he was kind enough to contact me via PM and caution me about the issue he had with his 875. We had an exchange over PM and it became clear to me that the 875 would not fit Subhash' needs. However, I also came to know about his 875 being used as a pre of late and yet it goes into protection mode. But then, the feedbackof owners of 875/876 in AVSForum was overwhelmingly positive hence I purchased it knowing all about Subhash' experience. Besides, I got it for a steal:)

You may be surprised, but I purchased the speaker package & 876 after 3 months of evaluation and I quite knew what I was buying and how long I will stick with it. This gear will stay with me for the next 2 - 3 years (kneel infront of god and pray everyday to not to give into the seductress called temptation;)) and in that time, I will get myself acquinted with other speakers / amp and gradually decide what gear would go into my dedicated music / reading room when I build one:)

Hmmm We all wish that, lets hope it does. Besides you have got a multifunction AVR not a 2 channel Hifi. Hence the utility and chances it will remain for 5 years is also there. But maybe (just maybe) you might start looking for a dedicated 2 channel stereo setup next year apart from the existing AVR....? ;) (Start saving my friend :D)

Cheers
 
Hmmm We all wish that, lets hope it does. Besides you have got a multifunction AVR not a 2 channel Hifi. Hence the utility and chances it will remain for 5 years is also there. But maybe (just maybe) you might start looking for a dedicated 2 channel stereo setup next year apart from the existing AVR....? ;) (Start saving my friend :D)

Cheers

One of the reasons why I sold the 608 and purchased 876 is because, besides the extra power, the 876 has 7.1 channel pre-outs. The AVR will surely stay with me for longer, but the dedicated stereo amp will get added hopefully few years down the lane. Initially I was planning on doing it by next year, but then I am quite happy with what I have now hence hopefully can wait few more years. Don't you tempt me now:p
 
One of the reasons why I sold the 608 and purchased 876 is because, besides the extra power, the 876 has 7.1 channel pre-outs. The AVR will surely stay with me for longer, but the dedicated stereo amp will get added hopefully few years down the lane. Initially I was planning on doing it by next year, but then I am quite happy with what I have now hence hopefully can wait few more years. Don't you tempt me now:p

No No dont indulge in mindless consumerism. I am strictly against that. Wait for the conviction that you absolutely need an upgrade :licklips: .. it will come sooner or later :D :eek:hyeah:;)

Cheers
 
Hi Dilip,
I completely agree with you from an end-user perspective. I am sure the review is very pertinent to folks with similar gear and in typical living rooms.

My point was about the absolute truth when it comes to a review. Things change as you change gear and rooms. Especially as you move to more resolving gear. When you setup such gear in an ideal listening room paying attention to all aspects of setup....things will start sounding very different. Your conclusions too will change. I have seen this happen time and again. Hence my comments !

Enjoy the music ! :)

Hi square_wave,

What I have posted is the "absolute truth" in my setup. While we would love to have separate acoustically treated rooms for music, at least I can't afford it at the moment. Quite possibly I may upgrade my gear as the years go by and build a separate room for my stereo setup but by then, the very existance of CD players would be in doubt thanks to the advent of HTPC and network compatible hi-fi equipment. So at that point in time, we will be discussing only about the performance of DACs possibly!

I look at it like this: As I mentioned in my previous post, the Onkyo 876 is an above average amp (will post the comparison to an integrated amp) and the Wharfedale Diamond 10.7 are pretty good speakers for stereo music. If the Emotiva could perform so well in a normal environment with such mid-fi gear, one can only imagine how well it will perform with more resolving gear and in an acoustically treated room.

Yep, I am quite enjoying the music:)

Once I add the Tacima mains conditioner and some vibration dampeners, I am all set for the next few years:)

-thekinge

Edit: You had mentioned earlier that CD player reviews cannot be done the way Venkatcr & I did. Could you please explain how it should be done? If your test approach is something useful and something that I could do in my setup, I would be happy to do the extra tests and post the results.
 
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No No dont indulge in mindless consumerism. I am strictly against that. Wait for the conviction that you absolutely need an upgrade :licklips: .. it will come sooner or later :D :eek:hyeah:;)

Cheers

Example for antonym: gobble's avatar and this post:D
 
Initially I was planning on doing it by next year, but then I am quite happy with what I have now hence hopefully can wait few more years
Just a matter of time, the upgraditis bug will bite you. This has been a record month for me. Ever since I joined HFV, this is my first month, where I have not spent more than 10k INR on AV equipment. This month, technically I have spent only 2.8k (Chord Carnival speaker cables from Malvai) so far. There is still another week to go, there is no telling what will happen:eek:hyeah:.

EDIT: Hint: Emotiva is running what they are calling a sale-a-bration, you may want to average out your recent spend on Emotiva when there was no sale:D. BTW, Subhash is getting two big daddy mono blocks:licklips:.

No No dont indulge in mindless consumerism. I am strictly against that. Wait for the conviction that you absolutely need an upgrade :licklips: .. it will come sooner or later :D :eek:hyeah:;)
:lol:
 
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Hi square_wave,

What I have posted is the "absolute truth" in my setup. While we would love to have separate acoustically treated rooms for music, at least I can't afford it at the moment. Quite possibly I may upgrade my gear as the years go by and build a separate room for my stereo setup but by then, the very existance of CD players would be in doubt thanks to the advent of HTPC and network compatible hi-fi equipment. So at that point in time, we will be discussing only about the performance of DACs possibly!

I look at it like this: As I mentioned in my previous post, the Onkyo 876 is an above average amp (will post the comparison to an integrated amp) and the Wharfedale Diamond 10.7 are pretty good speakers for stereo music. If the Emotiva could perform so well in a normal environment with such mid-fi gear, one can only imagine how well it will perform with more resolving gear and in an acoustically treated room.

Yep, I am quite enjoying the music:)

Once I add the Tacima mains conditioner and some vibration dampeners, I am all set for the next few years:)

-thekinge

Edit: You had mentioned earlier that CD player reviews cannot be done the way Venkatcr & I did. Could you please explain how it should be done? If your test approach is something useful and something that I could do in my setup, I would be happy to do the extra tests and post the results.

Dear Dilip,

When you review any gear, for the review to be truthful in an absolute sense not subjective sense, the associated gear and setup and environment needs to be as resolving and ideal as possible. No professional reviewer will review a cd player with an AVR (even if it the top end model). The speakers will need to be as resolving and revealing as possible. Even in such a setup, the belief systems of the reviewer and certain tonal/voicing aspects of the loudspeaker will creep in. The key is to keep all subjective aspects as minimal as possible.
The belief that if a gear performs nice in a budget system hence it will sound even nicer in a higher end system is wrong ! You may actually start hearing the problems build into a budget gear in a higher end system. A systems ability to create music is a function of system matching. Sometimes two wrongs can make something sound okay ! Remove one wrong and you will hear something very shocking! You may need to combine two rights to make the correct synergy !

There are various aspects build into consumer audio to make it sound nice with budget equipment. It is a combination of the marketing team and design team which makes these decisions.

But I want to reiterate the fact from an end user perspective the review is applicable to all who own the same gear in a similar room ! No arguments here.

Believe me, you are not set for a few years with you current gear. When you are ready for it, upgraditis will affect you. You will change. I can already see the signs !:) Cd player comparison test! Vibration control! Power conditioning! I can bet on this....

Cheers !
 
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Dear Dilip,

When you review any gear, for the review to be truthful in an absolute sense not subjective sense, the associated gear and setup and environment needs to be as resolving and ideal as possible. No professional reviewer will review a cd player with an AVR (even if it the top end model). The speakers will need to be as resolving and revealing as possible. Even in such a setup, the belief systems of the reviewer and certain tonal/voicing aspects of the loudspeaker will creep in. The key is to keep all subjective aspects as minimal as possible.
The belief that if a gear performs nice in a budget system hence it will sound even nicer in a higher end system is wrong ! You may actually start hearing the problems build into a budget gear in a higher end system. A systems ability to create music is a function of system matching. Sometimes two wrongs can make something sound okay ! Remove one wrong and you will hear something very shocking! You may need to combine two rights to make the correct synergy !

There are various aspects build into consumer audio to make it sound nice with budget equipment. It is a combination of the marketing team and design team which makes these decisions.

But I want to reiterate the fact from an end user perspective the review is applicable to all who own the same gear in a similar room ! No arguments here.

Believe me, you are not set for a few years with you current gear. When you are ready for it, upgraditis will affect you. You will change. I can already see the signs !:) Cd player comparison test! Vibration control! Power conditioning! You will not stay with wharfedales and AVRs for too long ! I can bet on this....

Cheers !

Hi Square_Wave,

If you read most of the professional reveiws, they don't even mention what gear they used for testing the CD player - they just go on and on about the notes and "new sounds" they heard. The exceptions to this are the likes of audioholics and S&V. Though my review is detailed, I did mention that we did not use any measuring tools to actually measure frquency responses, roll-offs etc. I also mentioned the complete setup so that members know in which environment the CD player was tested. And ofcourse it was a subjective review since I belong to the "subjectivist" camp:)

Also, let me reiterate, the 876 would perform comparably to any decent stereo integrated amp like Marantz. Am not saying this because I own the 876, but because I had auditioned both the Marantz PM 6003/8003 and then the Onkyo (all with Wharfedale Diamond speakers) and I liked the audio quality of Onkyo 876. This is against common wisdom, but then, I will also post a scientific comparison between both (taken from professional reviews).

I agree that when move up the chain and into better quality equipment, there will be a difference in sound quality -no debate about that. However there are very few reviews for both CD players where one has taken the effort to test it thoroughly in a high-end setup and post a review that is very detailed. Except for the Emotiva, where the link posted by esantosh is very detailed. But the reviewer compared it to a Technics 5 CD changer and not a Marantz.

Upgraditis'eh;) It will bite me sooner or later, but I am going to enjoy the honeymoon with my current setup and get to know about better systems. Pray that I will wait for at least 2 years:)

Btw I just noticed that you had built your speakers yourself. Hats off to you for that!
 
Just a matter of time, the upgraditis bug will bite you. This has been a record month for me. Ever since I joined HFV, this is my first month, where I have not spent more than 10k INR on AV equipment. This month, technically I have spent only 2.8k (Chord Carnival speaker cables from Malvai) so far. There is still another week to go, there is no telling what will happen:eek:hyeah:.

EDIT: Hint: Emotiva is running what they are calling a sale-a-bration, you may want to average out your recent spend on Emotiva when there was no sale:D. BTW, Subhash is getting two big daddy mono blocks:licklips:.

C'mon you guys, let me first repair the big hole in my wallet;)

It all started out innocently for me - I was looking for a decent 2.1 speaker / soundbar for my LCD TV whose sound quality was pathetic. Then I came across HFV,my ambitions soared to buying a full HT, then a HT / music combo, then an AVR which can pull both stereo/HT duties decently and then already an upgrade to an AVR which has pre-outs for future upgrades, then a dedicated CD player!

And now mains conditioning and vibration control...I'm already a member of the HFV spender's club;)

I knew Subhash would buy the mono blocks from Emotiva..it was only a matter of time:eek:hyeah:
 
C'mon you guys, let me first repair the big hole in my wallet;)

It all started out innocently for me - I was looking for a decent 2.1 speaker / soundbar for my LCD TV whose sound quality was pathetic. Then I came across HFV,my ambitions soared to buying a full HT, then a HT / music combo, then an AVR which can pull both stereo/HT duties decently and then already an upgrade to an AVR which has pre-outs for future upgrades, then a dedicated CD player!

And now mains conditioning and vibration control...I'm already a member of the HFV spender's club;)

I knew Subhash would buy the mono blocks from Emotiva..it was only a matter of time:eek:hyeah:


Chill guys ! Else TheKinge will require to be stuck onto a dozen vibrapods to control his trembling rage ... :eek:hyeah:

Cheers
 
Hi Dilip,
I completely agree with your thought process !
I did not build the speakers myself. It was done by acoustic portrait in Bangalore. I understand everything that went into the recipe and its results without getting my hands dirty. This is the second one from the designer who is a good friend. The first one was a Vifa driver based model called the MS 301.
I have owned wharfedale speakers some 6 years back. The 8.4 and 8.2s. Half of my friends own the newer wharfedales in their HT/Music systems. I am very used to their sound. Used to drive them with a Japanese stereo receiver, then came a Japanese stereo amp, then Nads (owned or checked out almost all models from Nad).
Have fun !
 
Hi Dilip,
I completely agree with your thought process !
I did not build the speakers myself. It was done by acoustic portrait in Bangalore. I understand everything that went into the recipe and its results without getting my hands dirty. This is the second one from the designer who is a good friend. The first one was a Vifa driver based model called the MS 301.
I have owned wharfedale speakers some 6 years back. The 8.4 and 8.2s. Half of my friends own the newer wharfedales in their HT/Music systems. I am very used to their sound. Used to drive them with a Japanese stereo receiver, then came a Japanese stereo amp, then Nads (owned or checked out almost all models from Nad).
Have fun !

Hi Square_wave,

Thanks for letting me know.

It's not very common to have a debate without it becoming a completely off-topic thai kick-boxing match at some point, so thanks again for staying on topic and for an engaging & useful discussion:)

-thekinge
 
It does Subhash. Do you want to create a new thread for this test?

hi dhilip

its good that the ps3 outputs DTS HD MA , v cud definetly try out the test

i have done an extensive search on the 875 in all forums ,its only on one canadian forum that a guy experienced the same issues as mine ,but unfortunetly @ times this link doesnt seem to open , you cud chk it out in my other thread on page 9, based on the facts of the canadian thread am sure the 875 was underbuilt with weak capacitors which had to be replaced to overcome the existing isuues they had

I need to chk if they have been rectified this issue in the newer models.

lets continue this in the other thread ,it cud be great to know the results

lets take it forward here
http://www.hifivision.com/sorround-amplifiers-receivers/6749-onkyo-avr875-reasons-875-go-into-protection-mode-10.html
 
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Hi Square_wave,

Thanks for letting me know.

It's not very common to have a debate without it becoming a completely off-topic thai kick-boxing match at some point, so thanks again for staying on topic and for an engaging & useful discussion:)

-thekinge

Was a pleasure talking to you Dilip. ;)
 
was waiting for some 'thai kick boxing', alas turned to be a damp squib :(

just kidding guys :D

you 2 have shown the way to the others on how to go about a meaningful discussion, kudos to both of you for your good behaviour!!!
 
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