HFV Mini Meet for Genelec Studio Monitors Demo @ Mahim, Mumbai

[bhagwan]

So Binoy, what you mean to say is that people in general like coloured sound??? When something is more natural, its bad????

I think we need to have these 'doubts' cleared first. And yes, I know that this topic is highly subjective, but then we must try to get some answers to what is what, don't you think???

Need of the hour is experts who are part of the audio industry to help us gain insight to this subject & impart information/knowledge on it.

Otherwise this discussion has no end to it

:clapping:

Excellent Question;

It is easy to ask & difficult to answer.
However, I will try.

Audio is a very 'subjective' thing - imho i.e.

So, what is neutral to me - may not be neutral to you.

We all base our analysis on what we have been exposed to.
So, If I listen to music in a particular environment & under certain conditions - that becomes a 'default' for me.
Some other people listen with a different set of defaults & hence what they thing & perceive to be 'default' may be different.

Therefore in this world - there are so many audio equipment manufacturers - each one is subscribing to a different audio philosophy.

more later...

 

[bhagwan]

By the way - 'bhagwan' 100 % likes 'coloured' sound !!
I hate 'neutral' sound.

 

[denom]

Santy, Joshua & the others who could not make it,

Do not feel bad, another meet in the 'works', this time will be held on a sunday for the convenience of all. Also the next meet will be a proper seminar with focus on 2 channel & HT with gyaan shared on what actually happens behind the scenes too. Expect the duration of this one to be a full day affair:licklips:

Now to 'fix' a convenient date for all interested

 

[denom]

@denom: next time listen to this tiny speakers playing Extreme's "Warheads". The intro which is a panned helicopter sound can be heard even behind you. They image like crazy.

If anyone is in the market for very revealing computer speakers and not too bothered about lower freq extension, these are the speakers for you. Will set you back by about 40K-ish. Another 40K-ish will buy you the matching subs.

Sad that work held me up and I could not attend this great meet.

:lol: this 'helicopter sound' has been reference material as far as hard rock is concerned, been advised this by many good people such as yourself

As for the 6010's you are 100% correct. Pocket Rockets indeed:licklips:

As for computer speakers, the Tube is more than sufficient:clapping:
Genelec 6000A-Tube
Best part is ideal for people on the go, as its so compact & easy to carry, even has its own carrying pouch designed for it!

 

[denom]

By the way - 'bhagwan' 100 % likes 'coloured' sound !!
I hate 'neutral' sound.

Yes, I have managed to figure this out a while back - actually after listening to your 'deadly' 2 channel set-up with the ML subs

 

[binoymehra]

So Binoy, what you mean to say is that people in general like coloured sound??? When something is more natural, its bad????

I think we need to have these 'doubts' cleared first. And yes, I know that this topic is highly subjective, but then we must try to get some answers to what is what, don't you think???

Need of the hour is experts who are part of the audio industry to help us gain insight to this subject & impart information/knowledge on it.

Otherwise this discussion has no end to it

No sir I did nt mean that . The point that Actives are giving you true sound and Passive speakers driven by outside amp will give more colored sound than an active speakers with built in amp is not correct. What I said was with my own experience . These mid priced speakers from Focal, KRK , Adam etc are good for the value but unless you go quite high end of the level of ATC actives, PMC actives or Tannoy actives as referred above by Bhagwan , the amp inside the speakers are not of that quality and not that well built amp (cost considerations) like arcam , bryston , naim etc and there are some kind of electrical/mechanical effect on the sound which makes them dry and little cold. If you want to listen natural sound listen to studio monitors Harbeth passive monitors , Klein Hummel passive monitor (now discontinued), ATC passives, accoustic energy AE22 . Natural does nt mean cold , and dryish by the way.A flute sounding on the face with sharp edges can not be said to be natural.

 

[bhagwan]

Yes, I have managed to figure this out a while back - actually after listening to your 'deadly' 2 channel set-up with the ML subs

Sir,

So you know what is neutral & what is coloured !!

That is great !
I am on the 'coloured' side of the fence !!

Originally Posted by bhagwan
By the way - 'bhagwan' 100 % likes 'coloured' sound !!
I hate 'neutral' sound.

 

[denom]

No sir I did nt mean that . The point that Actives are giving you true sound and Passive speakers driven by outside amp will give more colored sound than an active speakers with built in amp is not correct. What I said was with my own experience . These mid priced speakers from Focal, KRK , Adam etc are good for the value but unless you go quite high end of the level of ATC actives, PMC actives or Tannoy actives as referred above by Bhagwan , the amp inside the speakers are not of that quality and not that well built amp (cost considerations) like arcam , bryston , naim etc and there are some kind of electrical/mechanical effect on the sound which makes them dry and little cold. If you want to listen natural sound listen to studio monitors Harbeth passive monitors , Klein Hummel passive monitor (now discontinued), ATC passives, accoustic energy AE22 . Natural does nt mean cold , and dryish by the way.A flute sounding on the face with sharp edges can not be said to be natural.

I get your point but how does one get a chance to listen to the 'high end' speakers that you have mentioned??? All very good to say but without getting the opportunity to listen to these, its all 'in the air' talk.
Yes, dry sound is not natural but then this dry sound again can be interpreted in different ways by different people. Again the subjective angle comes into the picture. With the passives, yet again you need specific amps to bring the best out of them & next come the cables, which again will be an 'experiment' by itself. Not to forget the high costs especially of the brands you have mentioned.
With actives you are killing quite a few birds with 1 stone, almost certainly eliminate the 'cables issue' completely + the amp/speaker synergy issues. Now whether they sound dry/wet is another story altogether
So, we can continue to go on & on.....
Binoy, can you come to the next meet??? Would be most glad to have you amongst ourselves & discuss the topic at hand in the presence of an expert. What say???

 

[denom]

Sir,

So you know what is neutral & what is coloured !!

That is great !
I am on the 'coloured' side of the fence !!

Yes, forgot to add, it included your cars audio set-ups too

PS: Your fence is coloured but your profile pic is in black & white hyeah:

Just kidding - Shanti,

Shanti rakho kyunki Silence is bliss:lol:

 

[bhagwan]

PS: Your fence is coloured but your profile pic is in black & white hyeah:

Just kidding - Shanti,

Shanti rakho kyunki Silence is bliss:lol:

Sir,
I apologise, but none of what you wrote here - I have followed.
Please do shed some light - I request you....Thanks.

 

[bhagwan]

With actives you are killing quite a few birds with 1 stone, almost certainly eliminate the 'cables issue' completely + the amp/speaker synergy issues. Now whether they sound dry/wet is another story altogether

Yes;
With the Active Monitor a lot of issues get 'solved'
However, the main issue is are they 'solved' in a manner that 'suits' your individual taste ?

Hence, I always suggest for HT use Active Speakers - since the emphasis is on Video & not on audio - so critical listening is not as important.
HT needs to create SPL & Sound Effects & offer Distortion Free Sound - that Active Monitors can do.

For Music & 2 channel - the set of 'important parameters' [from my point of view] is very different.
Spacing / Layering / Darkness / Front to Back / Tone etc. are issues that come into play - most of this an Active Monitor cannot even start to do for you !!! They are 'alien' terms to the world of AM's [Active Monitors] !!!

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Oh... My... God...

Until I saw the pics, I had imagined that you guys might have listened to the computer/home-studio/pro-monitoring/larger-speakers-surround setups: now I see a room full of the (?-) entire range?

Wow.

Bhagwan,

For Music & 2 channel - the set of 'important parameters' [from my point of view] is very different.
Spacing / Layering / Darkness / Front to Back / Tone etc. are issues that come into play - most of this an Active Monitor cannot even start to do for you !!! They are 'alien' terms to the world of AM's [Active Monitors] !!!

How, then, does it work for the engineer who is getting his mix or mastering right in the studio? If he is not hearing this stuff, and getting it right, then surely, whatever equipment we listen to his work on, we will not be able to hear it either?

BTW... by pure coincidence I've seen a couple of music-related news items in past few days, and, after reading this thread it really stood out that the speakers in the pictures were, in both instances, ...Genelec!

.

 

[bhagwan]

Oh... My... God...

Until I saw the pics, I had imagined that you guys might have listened to the computer/home-studio/pro-monitoring/larger-speakers-surround setups: now I see a room full of the (?-) entire range?

Wow.

Sir,
We went to the D & D's place.
He supplies Genelec to the Indian Market - so he must keep the entire range - well not all - but has 60 % of it in stock & on demo !! Correct way to do Audio imho !!
:clapping:

 

[bhagwan]

How, then, does it work for the engineer who is getting his mix or mastering right in the studio? If he is not hearing this stuff, and getting it right, then surely, whatever equipment we listen to his work on, we will not be able to hear it either?

Respected Sir,
Excellent inference;
Ideal observation - you are spot on;
How ?

Have you even noticed that out of your entire collection of 100 CD's [let us assume that you have 100 CD's] only 3 or 4 are recorded well & sound good ?
This is with regards the sound reproduction & not the musical content ?

In our Audiophile world - there is a very old joke that does the rounds - the quality of music is inversely proportional to the quality of the recording.....

Most of the music is made for 'film' & it has to be played in a movie theatre - HT environment - DTS / etc.
Rest is played on Radio - FM [all know what that can play - frequency wise - the rest play it on a mobile phone or on mp3 etc. So SQ is never important !!

They [sound recording engineers] will give to you what you can use / understand etc. They know that the number of Audiophiles are few & far between - so they do not bother - will talk of this in person when we meet - audiophile home visit - I need to make you & other forum members understand this by explaination in person & make them experience it !!

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Nice response!

Perhaps this is one of the few good points about my not having taken much interest in "contemporary" Western music for a few decades! People tell me that, as this time has passed, the audio compressor has taken over.

Western classical music, which I also haven't bought any of for quite a while, is, I think, more likely to be well recorded.

Carnatic music, which has been my main focus for last few years --- could probably mostly have been mixed on the built-in speaker of a cheap cassette player. Except that misuse of the knobs proves they actually had a mixing desk!

We digress

 

[denom]

Respected Sir,
Excellent inference;
Ideal observation - you are spot on;
How ?

Have you even noticed that out of your entire collection of 100 CD's [let us assume that you have 100 CD's] only 3 or 4 are recorded well & sound good ?
This is with regards the sound reproduction & not the musical content ?

In our Audiophile world - there is a very old joke that does the rounds - the quality of music is inversely proportional to the quality of the recording.....

Most of the music is made for 'film' & it has to be played in a movie theatre - HT environment - DTS / etc.
Rest is played on Radio - FM [all know what that can play - frequency wise - the rest play it on a mobile phone or on mp3 etc. So SQ is never important !!

They [sound recording engineers] will give to you what you can use / understand etc. They know that the number of Audiophiles are few & far between - so they do not bother - will talk of this in person when we meet - audiophile home visit - I need to make you & other forum members understand this by explaination in person & make them experience it !!

Bhagwan,
please understand that not all on the forum can physically come down to mumbai & get your 'face to face' explanation & gyaan from you. Kindly, therefore elaborate through the forum for their 'benefit' - Thanks in ADvance If not, then you may by all means travel all over India for 'face to face' meets Like the old saying 'If the mountain won't come to Mohammed, then Mohammed must go to the mountain ' :lol:

 

[denom]

Yes;
With the Active Monitor a lot of issues get 'solved'
However, the main issue is are they 'solved' in a manner that 'suits' your individual taste ?

Hence, I always suggest for HT use Active Speakers - since the emphasis is on Video & not on audio - so critical listening is not as important.
HT needs to create SPL & Sound Effects & offer Distortion Free Sound - that Active Monitors can do.

For Music & 2 channel - the set of 'important parameters' [from my point of view] is very different.
Spacing / Layering / Darkness / Front to Back / Tone etc. are issues that come into play - most of this an Active Monitor cannot even start to do for you !!! They are 'alien' terms to the world of AM's [Active Monitors] !!!

Hence the old adage's apply here - This topic is HIGHLY SUBJECTIVE /
YMMV / One mans meat.... / Etc....

 

[Pandamaudio]

Thank you HiFiVision members for visiting my Genelec showroom and reviewing our loudspeakers. It was a pleasure for us to present the Genelec technologies and demonstrate everything here. You were all impressive guys that had interesting questions and attention for the details. Its overwhelming to read the response and opinions you have posted online and a big huge thanks for being so kind in your posts. A special thanks all the HiFiVision members who painstakingly organized the meet and got the group together at the showroom. We look forward to your next visit soon

 

[bhagwan]

Bhagwan,
please understand that not all on the forum can physically come down to mumbai & get your 'face to face' explanation & gyaan from you. Kindly, therefore elaborate through the forum for their 'benefit' - Thanks in ADvance If not, then you may by all means travel all over India for 'face to face' meets Like the old saying 'If the mountain won't come to Mohammed, then Mohammed must go to the mountain ' :lol:

Sir,
I want to explain; Trust me I do !
However, I do not know how to ?
My skill set is rather limited;
I want to share but do not know how to pen it down.
It has to be experience, please do try to understand. You have to be there to know;;;

This is not 'objective' - It is 100 % subjective...

When you attend a Western Classical Concert - just to site an example - you will have the 1st violins & the 2nd violins & the violas & the violin cellos in the front row - left to right [more often than not = do not pounce on me - this is just an example]
Then the Obo / Clarinet / Picollo / Trumpet / French Horn / Tuba [again left to right] This is 2nd row.
Harp / Triangle / Timpany / Snare / Military Drum etc. [left to right] 3rd row.

Now when you listen to this on a high end audio set up - all the persons should have a holographic location in your listening room.
Front to Back & Left to Right !! Trust be this is very very difficult to get right.
In most cases - each person sits and plays on top of the other person - so wrong that is.....Now how do I make you understand this in writing ? You need to experience it in real life @ concert first & then on an audio set up.
The Military Drum / Triangle / Tympany etc. should play 10 to 15 feet from behind your speakers front baffle. Can this sound like sense to you ? All of you will get up / stand and abuse me - saying I talk 100 % crap - so unless I make you listen to it - how can I make you understand or believe it ???

If I ask you to describe Monalisa's Smile in a paragraph - can you do it ? You have to see the painting to understand what Leonardo do Vinci was trying to paint....to convey to you...

If I write about an Opus Red Wine - Can the taste get to your tongue ? Can your nose smell it ??? I am not so sure - you need to smell & taste the wine to know what I am talking about....

So, I do not know if the Mountain will come to Mohammad or the Prophet will go to the Mountain - but this is how I understand audio !! :licklips:

What ever you write about the Genelec HT Experience - can the forum members that did not attend, know or understand what Casino Royal was like ?? To your ears i.e. !! What was the feeling you got when you heard / saw the scene from the 007 movie ??

 

[jls001]

To try and answer denom's query about studio monitors being neutral, yes studio speakers strive to be as neutral as possible. There is a simple for this: when an audio engineer puts together layers of voice, musical instruments, and the effects on each layer, he needs to be able to know that the levels he decides to set for each layer is balanced so that when it is played back from a playback system, the mix should sound well balanced without any frequency component(s) getting lost in the mix, or any frequency component gaining prominence against the intention of the audio engineer.

It is essentially an instrument, and like any good instrument it is expected to give accurate readings. Of course there are level meters and such to assist an engineer but that's mostly to avoid overshooting levels that can lead to distortions.

Now, the question of whether studio monitors sound dry and unmusical compared to home speakers, is something that arises because most audio enthusiasts are first used to listening to home audio systems, which invariably have colourations compared to good studio monitors. If one's experience of audio began with well-balanced studio monitors, probably home speakers would not sound right.

And there is the extreme school which believes that one should use a bad monitor to mix so that if one can get it right on that bad monitor, it will sound right on most speakers. The famous/infamous Yamaha MSP10 was a subject of such extreme thought amongst mix engineers.

Another extreme school among audio engineers who mix for radio promos and commercials is to test the final mix on a tiny speaker like the speakers that come on older computer monitors. The philosophy being that if it sounds ok on such teenyweeny speakers they will sound right on radios whose size and fidelity isn't much higher than a computer monitor's inbuilt speakers.

Also this simple test was surprisingly good at catching if a channel (or a layer, to go by previous terminology) is in or out of phase. This is a very important test. Let's say a voiceover in a commercial is inadvertantly mixed out of phase, then that voice would be heard as being low, very low, or not there depending on how out of phase it has been mixed with respect to the rest of the mix.

Large and well equipped studios have large floorstanders to listen to the final mix from afar (as opposed to near field listening for monitors).

Personally I find listening to studio monitors a bit boring. I would rather listen to home audio systems, despite the added auphonies.