HFV Mini Meet for Genelec Studio Monitors Demo @ Mahim, Mumbai

Thanks Joshua, you have given a fair idea of how things work from the studio/audio engineer/mixer point of view.

Also, the overwhelming fact of all of us being exposed to 'colouration' over a period of time is an inescapable.

I think we all are now well aware of most of the facts & topics discussed in this thread. The next meet related to this topic will be most interesting & enlightening for all of us
:)
 
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Sir,
I want to explain; Trust me I do !
However, I do not know how to ?
My skill set is rather limited;
I want to share but do not know how to pen it down.
It has to be experience, please do try to understand. You have to be there to know;;;

This is not 'objective' - It is 100 % subjective...

When you attend a Western Classical Concert - just to site an example - you will have the 1st violins & the 2nd violins & the violas & the violin cellos in the front row - left to right [more often than not = do not pounce on me - this is just an example]
Then the Obo / Clarinet / Picollo / Trumpet / French Horn / Tuba [again left to right] This is 2nd row.
Harp / Triangle / Timpany / Snare / Military Drum etc. [left to right] 3rd row.

Now when you listen to this on a high end audio set up - all the persons should have a holographic location in your listening room.
Front to Back & Left to Right !! Trust be this is very very difficult to get right.
In most cases - each person sits and plays on top of the other person - so wrong that is.....Now how do I make you understand this in writing ? You need to experience it in real life @ concert first & then on an audio set up.
The Military Drum / Triangle / Tympany etc. should play 10 to 15 feet from behind your speakers front baffle. Can this sound like sense to you ? All of you will get up / stand and abuse me - saying I talk 100 % crap - so unless I make you listen to it - how can I make you understand or believe it ???

If I ask you to describe Monalisa's Smile in a paragraph - can you do it ? You have to see the painting to understand what Leonardo do Vinci was trying to paint....to convey to you...

If I write about an Opus Red Wine - Can the taste get to your tongue ? Can your nose smell it ??? I am not so sure - you need to smell & taste the wine to know what I am talking about....

So, I do not know if the Mountain will come to Mohammad or the Prophet will go to the Mountain - but this is how I understand audio !! :licklips:

What ever you write about the Genelec HT Experience - can the forum members that did not attend, know or understand what Casino Royal was like ?? To your ears i.e. !! What was the feeling you got when you heard / saw the scene from the 007 movie ??

In short,

We need to meet more often, listen to music, drink wine & get more gyaan from you :D
I am sure most of us are ready to do so @ your convenience ;)
I for one am ready to 'go to the mountain' :lol:
 
Sir,
You need to go for live - un-amplified audio [music] concerts.
Listen to instruments & voice there. Step 1
Then visit few audio set ups. Step 2 [home visits]
This is the only way, some idea of what audio is will happen - imho...
 
Gentlemen, its quite interesting to read the diverse opinions and analysis of how and why active or passive loudspeakers sound the way they do. Some use the good old if you cant convince them, confuse them route and ofcourse as always, there are some good comments too. To me, almost everything relevant about electro-acoustics & amplifiers is already quite well known by the top R&D engineers and researchers in the premium loudspeaker industry. Its not that Genelec technologies are not known or understood by the other top R&D engineers, and likewise its not like the Genelec R&D team are ignorant about any of the technologies developed by other top R&D engineers as information about all premium technologies are somehow available to all the top R&D engineers in their specific fields. Its has to be the case where every loudspeaker manufacturer wants to build & market the best loudspeaker systems, but few can, for various reasons, which is why some loudspeakers have special features & technologies and some dont. Its mostly primarily related to the (funding + development + manufacturing + marketing + management) capabilities of the company and quite rarely due to lack of knowledge. There are other secondary factors too which are not essentially relevant to this discussion. Pandam used to be a loudspeaker manufacturer before, so we have operated these factors and know them well. We started with passive loudspeaker systems and tried to progress to active loudspeaker systems and there was no turning back for us when we developed an in-depth understanding of what are the advanced possibilities when you use certain technologies that can be properly applied mainly to active loudspeakers. Hope you are able to attend the seminar where Clifford & myself will try to present some interesting substantiated information when we have the opportunity. I am sure it will be great food for thought for some of you.

If you can download the paper (Application of Negative Impedance Amplifiers to Loudspeaker Systems) by Werner & Carrell (1958) from the AES E-Library, there you can start to have an understanding of how complex the mated Genelec driver + amplifier design are, where both are sophisticatedly tailored for each other. The G speaker will have a different performance on a standard amplifier & the G amplifier could oscillate & burn out of you try to play it on a different speaker. But when used the way they are designed to be used, the performance is outstanding and the superb results are hard to ignore.

Another thing that caught my attention is lots of emotional words generalizing that studio loudspeaker monitors might be dry, cold, un-musical, un-natural, colored, sharp, bright, course, rough and lack spacing, layering, darkness, front to back, tone etc. If you take all the studio loudspeaker monitor brands mentioned in this thread, the bits and pieces in found in all these brands cover almost the entire spectrum of crossover types, internal & external amplifier types, driver types, waveguide types, enclosure types and speaker system sizes that correspond to what makes up most stages of most kinds of good home hifi loudspeaker systems. It would be interesting to be enlightened as to what parts or stages of a 'studio loudspeaker monitor' suddenly deteriorates all the things those emotional words describe.

Another thing that caught my attention is the perception of how only home passive hifi loudspeaker systems can reproduce the front to back depth & layering in all music played on them, but active studio monitors cannot. I fail to understand how this front to back depth & layering phenomenon is always obtained from all music on passive hifi speakers and not on any studio active loudspeaker monitors. How does the recording / mix engineer hear the front to back depth & layering in the studio and work on it while recording / mixing if his active studio monitors cannot reproduce it? You will agree that the recording / mix engineer has to put in some amount work on the front to back depth & layering during the recording / mixing process to get it into the final audio track if your passive hifi speakers have to reproduce it. Can anyone enlighten me about how this process goes and how it is achieved? I have spent a lot of time with many great studio engineers from various kinds of premium studios and extensively discussed recording and mixing techniques with them and find that they rarely use spatial miking kits or special processors for front to back depth & layering. Discrete close miking for each instrument not only does away with microphone proximity effect problems, but also greatly improves the signal to noise ratio of the recording and allows each individual instrument to directly feed to the mixing console allowing accurate level, tone control & processing to all the instruments individually in the mix. All this is not possible when a single spatial microphone kit is used to mike the entire orchestra. When discrete microphones are used on each instrument, front to back depth & layering of the entire orchestra is lost with this technique. So again, can anyone enlighten me about how this is achieved in the studios, for all music to be reproduced with front to back depth & layering from all passive hifi loudspeaker systems?
 
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Discrete close miking for each instrument not only does away with microphone proximity effect problems, but also greatly improves the signal to noise ratio of the recording and allows each individual instrument to directly feed to the mixing console allowing accurate level, tone control & processing to all the instruments individually in the mix. All this is not possible when a single spatial microphone kit is used to mike the entire orchestra. When discrete microphones are used on each instrument, front to back depth & layering of the entire orchestra is lost with this technique. So again, can anyone enlighten me about how this is achieved in the studios, for all music to be reproduced with front to back depth & layering from all passive hifi loudspeaker systems?

This is something I've always been curious about! Personally, the one thing I most enjoy when listening to music at home is this layering and depth. I'd love to know how it is achieved if a multi-mike setup is used for recording.
 
In short,

We need to meet more often, listen to music, drink wine & get more gyaan from you :D
I am sure most of us are ready to do so @ your convenience ;)
I for one am ready to 'go to the mountain' :lol:

I told you I am coming with you this time...
I am ready to share the load - you understand music..i try to understand wine or single malt !!!:eek:hyeah::eek:hyeah:: :beer::cheers:
 
what was the room size in which you had the demo? Which one are the largish bookshelves -
genelac05.jpg
 
This is something I've always been curious about! Personally, the one thing I most enjoy when listening to music at home is this layering and depth. I'd love to know how it is achieved if a multi-mike setup is used for recording.
It's amazing to think that the whole stereo thing is a kind of illusion. Because our ears receive a similar balance of signals that they would get from hearing an instrument in the middle of a stage, our brains believe that it is there! Wonderful! I have no idea how the illusion of depth gets added to that. It may be that our brains have as much to do with it as the equipment, but it maybe that some equipment helps our brains more than others?

It may be that having a good, practical knowledge of the layout of an orchestra helps too.
 
Well said Prashant.

BTW, do let us know if you have any plans for a visit to Bangalore where we can have an opportunity to audition any of your equipment. I am sure some of us here would welcome the opportunity you gave our Bombay friends.
 
Well said Prashant.

BTW, do let us know if you have any plans for a visit to Bangalore where we can have an opportunity to audition any of your equipment. I am sure some of us here would welcome the opportunity you gave our Bombay friends.

And Chennai! And Chennai! :yahoo:

So... When's the roadshow? :)
 
Hi Thad,

Had inquired with the Chennai Meet Organisers regarding this, but its too tight a fit for that to happen during this meet. The Genelec team wants to give a full day seminar on their products & lot of studio related aspects will also be discussed. So probably the Chennai Members have to fix a date for that in the near future for that to happen.

Meanwhile the Mumbai HFV Gang is going to benefit 1st, probably during the beginning of next month :)

Bangalore HFV gang can be next in line for the same followed by any other cities that might be interested.... ;) (PS: you know whom to contact:eek:hyeah:)

Want all of us on HFV to benefit from gaining knowledge when its been so generously offered by the good folk @ Genelec.

:licklips:
 
And Chennai! And Chennai! :yahoo:

So... When's the roadshow? :)

Hi Thad,

Had inquired with the Chennai Meet Organisers regarding this, but its too tight a fit for that to happen during this meet. The Genelec team wants to give a full day seminar on their products & lot of studio related aspects will also be discussed. So probably the Chennai Members have to fix a date for that in the near future for that to happen.

:licklips:

Thanks Denom,,We had discussion on this above yesterday, Yes it will be an tight fit for this meet and for sure it can be kept in the next month.

Regards
 
what was the room size in which you had the demo? Which one are the largish bookshelves

The raw room size would be approx 10x14x24 feet HxWxL
The speaker on the floor stand is the three-way triamp DSP 8260A with a coaxial midrange-tweeter driver
 
This is something I've always been curious about! Personally, the one thing I most enjoy when listening to music at home is this layering and depth. I'd love to know how it is achieved if a multi-mike setup is used for recording.

This is what I have been given to understand by the recording engineers I have discussed the subject with

Spatial miking (MS STEREO) is one way to capture the entire space including the depth. This is easily reproduced on all hifi speakers as well as all studio monitors. But spatial miking (MS STEREO) is generally possible for a solo, duo or trio performance where all the musicians are close to the Mid-Side Stereo Microphone Kit. Spatial miking is rarely used in most studios. You can find a lot of info on MS Stereo technique on the web

In normal studio recordings, each instrument may be recorded one at a time, track by track, mostly with close miking, in a process that may be done over days, weeks or months in the same studio or in many studios or locations. For most studio music recordings and large orchestras, discrete close miking is preferred for reasons described in my previous post. Since each mic is dedicated to each individual instrument, the entire band or orchestra depth cannot captured using this method. Then once all the instruments are recorded on individual tracks, then they are processed and mixed down to stereo or surround. In this process the engineer can process depth if he so desires with special processors. But this is a very delicate process and can go terribly wrong upsetting the phase of the entire mix if not handled properly. So special processing for depth is very rarely done
 
Well said Prashant.

BTW, do let us know if you have any plans for a visit to Bangalore where we can have an opportunity to audition any of your equipment. I am sure some of us here would welcome the opportunity you gave our Bombay friends.

Hey :) I am flying to Bangalore tonight and will be there for about a week. Would love to meet up with you guys if you'll are free

I would love to participate in any meet in Bangalore, Chennai, etc. or even organize seminars and demos for HiFiVision Members whenever possible. Lets plan something soon
 
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Don't you mean ... picture of a Genelec with, err, some guy in the background? :lol:

The purse is empty. I really doubt I'd ever be one of your customers, but I can promise to be a sincere and enthusiastic listener if and when that Chennai seminar happens --- and who knows what planted seeds might grow into :D
 
BTW, do let us know if you have any plans for a visit to Bangalore where we can have an opportunity to audition any of your equipment. I am sure some of us here would welcome the opportunity you gave our Bombay friends.

And Chennai! And Chennai!

Had inquired with the Chennai Meet Organisers regarding this, but its too tight a fit for that to happen during this meet.

Hmm, Denom let the cat out of the bag already.
 
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