Int amp as an add on to AVR

Audio Video Cables Galore

pradski

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Hello again, sorry to bother I know lot of threads are there for this.

If amps are good for music then why are we spending a fortune on AVR's. Is it just for an upscale and couple of channels.(irritated, when 50k avr sounds sick)

AVR sounds terrible in stereo. I can't reproduce the real quality to you on text. I know my sound, even if i hear in tiniest waste speakers I can appreciate it. listen to lot of varieties.

Not happy with my sound, millions are missing in setup, having spent a fortune.

Dilemma is will an amp give me some relief. Max 20k.

Anybody who can help. Could you suggest what I can attempt.

Or should I start with a budget amp like craftel which venkat suggests.

or prakash has a collection (used )
1) Roksan Caspian - Made in England - 70 RMS per channel - 25K
2) Marantz PM 4001 - Silver colour - 9k
3) Nakamichi IA-3 - 9k
4) Marantz PM 6010 OSE - 10k

few ideas if you can pitch in for WF 9.6 FS.

Thanks.
 
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moserw

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Hello again, sorry to bother I know lot of threads are there for this.

If amps are good for music then why are we spending a fortune on AVR's. Is it just for an upscale and couple of channels.(irritated, when 50k avr sounds sick)

AVR sounds terrible in stereo. I can't reproduce the real quality to you on text. I know my sound, even if i hear in tiniest waste speakers I can appreciate it. listen to lot of varieties.

Not happy with my sound, millions are missing in setup, having spent a fortune.

Dilemma is will an amp give me some relief. Max 20k.

Anybody who can help. Could you suggest what I can attempt.

Or should I start with a budget amp like craftel which venkat suggests.

or prakash has a collection (used )
1) Roksan Caspian - Made in England - 70 RMS per channel - 25K
2) Marantz PM 4001 - Silver colour - 9k
3) Nakamichi IA-3 - 9k
4) Marantz PM 6010 OSE - 10k

few ideas if you can pitch in for WF 9.6 FS.

Thanks.

Hi pradski,

Looking at your setup it should provide with great sound. But I know from personal experience 2 channel music does not always sound great on a 5.1 system. What you can do is look to connect just 2 speakers i.e. front left and front right via stereo mode or "B speakers" configuration on your AVR. Don't know if your AVR has that option, but most do so check it out.

BTW, I understand you listen to a lot of Audio CDs right? Or is it mp3s from a system or anything else?
 

bazee

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Hi pradski

I am in same dilema. AVR vs Stereo Amp.
In one thread i had started earlier, venkat and others had a solution:
Connect a stereo amp to Pre Out of the AVR.
Unfortunately my AVR does not have a Pre out.
So I will have to change spk connection betwn AVR and AMp.
More suggestions are welcome

regards
 

silentsound

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Hi,

I'm in the same boat too. I'm feeding the front L&R preout from my Yam RXV-1500 thru an old NAD 2400 power amplifier to my MA RS6s. It sounds much better. In fact I've bi-amped using the spkr out from the avr to the spkr LF terminals & used the NAD's output to the HF terminals. But this way I've to make sure the LF/HF doesn't overshadow the other. This is one of the reason I'm looking for a SPL meter. This is a temporary measure till I upgrade to a good power amplifier.

Cheers,
SilentSound.
 

bazee

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hi

my amp Yamaha RXV-459 does not have a pre-out.
how can i add a stereo amp to it..

regards
 

venkatcr

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Pradski:

With a Denon 2309 and Marantz 5001 CDP, you shouldget good music. Denon is supposed to be a musical amp, for heaven's sake.

As Moser has said have you connected the CDP properly? And are you using the PURE DIRECT mode of the 2309. In this mode, the Denon will switch off all video circuitry and give you pure 2 channel audio.

Connected properly, the 2309 may actually give better sound than any of the old models you are looking at.

Cheers
 

pradski

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There we go we have some more in our boat.

moser I play mp3 only in car not in set up.

bazee we have to wait for inputs from seniors.

silent sound you got something going there. I still have to research that.

Venkat, I know setup is supposed to be musical and it is in dolby prologic II.

Pure mode it just goes down so much, to be audible need to up the volume to -10db and above. I am sure my connections are correct.
Setup is more low freq oriented, higher mid and high freq are lacking. The synchrony of these are not present.
The crispness and brightness is lacking. Good for soft pop, instrumentals and vocal based music. (All my theory if any has different views welcome)
It is pleasant and very musical and has good WAF. (infact LAF & NAF, landlord and neighbour Ha ha )

At least I am learning what sound I am really looking for

Thanks everybody
 
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silentsound

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Hi,

I'm kinda thinking what Venkat may be thinking. In Pure Direct mode, volume set at -10 dB should be pretty loud. I think you should check the connection. Try changing the rca cables. Make sure the Right and Left are connected correctly. Lastly make sure the analog input is being used instead of any digital input.

Cheers,
SilentSound.
 

reignofchaos

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Pradski:

With a Denon 2309 and Marantz 5001 CDP, you shouldget good music. Denon is supposed to be a musical amp, for heaven's sake.

Couldn't disagree more with you. Denon AVRs are pretty ordinary as far as music is concerned. All they have is hard hitting dynamics but the top end is shrill and unrefined. Midrange clarity is pretty much non existent. In comparison the Marantz and HK AVRs do way way better. I think only the Yamahas and Onkyos are worse off for music.
 

venkatcr

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Couldn't disagree more with you. Denon AVRs are pretty ordinary as far as music is concerned. I think only the Yamahas and Onkyos are worse off for music.

ROC, though I very much respect your opinion, I must tell you of a experience I had just today. I spent a little time today listening to the Yamaha 663 connected to a Yamaha DVD Player and EPOS m12i stand mount speakers. I heard a couple of songs of Fleetwood Mac. I must say the combination sounded very nice even at low volumes. Yes, at high volumes the set up may sound a little bright with extra emphasis on low frequencies. But if connected to good speakers such the EPOS, the Yamaha 663 could be capable of passing itself off an AVR that can also play music quiet decently.

Cheers
 

moserw

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Couldn't disagree more with you. Denon AVRs are pretty ordinary as far as music is concerned. All they have is hard hitting dynamics but the top end is shrill and unrefined. Midrange clarity is pretty much non existent. In comparison the Marantz and HK AVRs do way way better. I think only the Yamahas and Onkyos are worse off for music.

Don't know about the Denon, but I will agree with you (albeit grudgingly since I do love my Onkyo). Music really does not rock on Onkyo/Yamaha, but movies sure do rock a whole lot better than others in the same league/category on the Onkyo/Yamaha. The problem is with outputting 2 channel music in a 5.1 HT system. DTS and 5.1 music though does sound heavenly on my Onkyo, only too bad there is very less of DTS and 5.1 music that is available.
 

hifipal4all

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Hi,

I'm in the same boat too. I'm feeding the front L&R preout from my Yam RXV-1500 thru an old NAD 2400 power amplifier to my MA RS6s. It sounds much better. In fact I've bi-amped using the spkr out from the avr to the spkr LF terminals & used the NAD's output to the HF terminals. But this way I've to make sure the LF/HF doesn't overshadow the other. This is one of the reason I'm looking for a SPL meter. This is a temporary measure till I upgrade to a good power amplifier.

Cheers,
SilentSound.

Hello SS,

I am 100% sure that even if you replace your NAD 2400 with a good power amplifier, you will never get a good stereo sound that you expect. The reason is .... generally, the 2 channel PREAMP section of any A/VReceiver is not as good as a dedicated stereo preamplifier. One of my friend has the same NAD 2400 power amplifier with matching NAD preamplifier (I forgot the preamp model number ... again this is also a 4 digit model number) and the sound is just great. So, the weak link is the preamp and nothing to do with your power amplifier. In your case, I suggest you buy a dedicated stereo preamplifier (NAD) or any other brand which matches your power amplifier and have your stereo setup separately. Only pain that you have to take is, you have to keep switching between your stereo & AVR since you are using the MA-RS6 as fronts in your AVR. Alternatively, you can buy a pair of budget tower speakers (20K price bracket) and use it for the fronts in your AVR and use your MA-RS6 for your stereo setup.

Generally, If an AVR is used just for watching movies, then it is not necessary that an expensive speakers should be used for fronts. Well if the AVR is used for both Movies & Music then it makes sense to use expenesive speakers for fronts.

Cheers,
Ramesh
 

bazee

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Insteas of buying new front spks, we can run a extra pair of wires to spks with banana plugs and just change the plugs for listening to AVR/Amplifier.

regards
 

thevortex

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Its amazing how many people have the same problem and thanks to Pradski everybody is going to get something out of this thread. So, thanks to Pradski first up is due:)

Well, I am in the same boat as well. My Marantz AVR is pretty musical. I have listened extensively to the Yamaha VX663 with many speakers including the EPOS M12.2. It is competent but it is not a match for Marantz amplifers. Even a PM4001 connected to the speakers performed better than the Yamaha for music. The key word here is music.

I am looking at a solution for an integrated amp and CD player combo. Fortunately the Marantz offers 7.1 pre-out connections so that is covered. I am looking around for choices on the amp-CDP combo. So would love to hear what experts have to say on this thread.

Venkat, I agree with RDB to an extent. I have auditioned the Yamaha and Denon a lot with different speakers - KEF, DynAudio, EPOS, PSB, Energy, Klipsch etc. And in every case I found the Marantz - even a couple of rungs lower than the Denon/Yamaha in operation outperformed these for music. As for the Onkyo, my audition on the SR505 was the biggest disappointment among all my auditions. The sound of that AVR was absolutely lifeless - nothing in it whatsoever. The funny thing (not so funny at that time:)) was that I was seriously looking at the Onkyo SR505 as my amp to start off. I had got my speakers and had taken them for testing to the Onkyo showroom and was completely flabbergasted at the lack of any life whatsoever in the receiver.

I had just listened to the same speakers sing with a Yamaha, a Marantz integrated and a Primare integrated an hour or two back. And I simply could not believe the difference. More than night and day.

Coming back to Pradski's original post, I wonder how -10 DB does not provide listenable sound levels. I am pretty sure there is some setting wrong there. Pradski - could you check your receiver's speaker input settings - where you set the speakers' distance from the receiver and the volume level adjustment you want for each speaker.

If you have used any automatic calibration method, I would encourage you to do the settings manually. I have done all my settings manually (did not have a choice:)) and am very satisfied with it. At -10 DB even MP3s should sound full bodied (to an extent) and room filling. Especially considering the Diamond 9.6's high sensitivity (90, if I am not mistaken). Yes, this should be true even in Pure Direct.

I have one other thing to add. I have noticed how Pure Direct produces a couple of dbs lower sound than other modes. It is immediately apparent when you switch from stereo or any one of the surround or DSP modes. But give Pure Direct some time. When the amp warms up - 15 minutes or so - Pure Direct gives that missing acoustic touch to vocals and instruments that the other modes never do, irrespective of volume levels. Initially I too dismissed the Pure Direct as being too weak but the thing is instead of fiddling with the controls and volumes if we give Pure Direct a bit of time, the music grows on you. For everything but hard hitting bass, Pure Direct makes for the best music listening.

Anyhow this has been my experience with my Marantz AVR. Am keenly looking forward to opinions from experts regarding addition of an integrated amp/CD Player combo.
 

venkatcr

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Pradski, Bazee, Silentsound, and Vortex,

You guys have reached a level where you have to take a hard decision. Any AVR can only go so far with music. If you had read my postings, I have been maintaining this all along. As I have said, an AVR is made for movies, not for music. Yes, the manufacturers do go to some extent including separate circuitry, pure direct, stereo etc to try to optimise for music also. But they certainly will not allow the main task - movies - to be compromised. Here is some of what you guys can do.

1. Spend a little time (and money), and try to get the best out of your existing system for music. Some of what you can do is to look at better interconnects, better speaker cables, speaker positioning, toeing in etc. None of this will go waste as you always use them in any system.

2. If some of you are using DVD Player for music, please switch to a good CDP. As I have said many times, even a CA 340C will sound better than an universal DVD Player.

3. The DAC could be an issue. See if you could borrow a good DAC and insert it in the chain.

4. Borrow a pair of musical bookshelf speakers and see if that improves thr sound.

5. If none of this works, you may have to go in for a separate CDP and 2 channel amp. But this means an additional 50 to 60 thousand.

For those in Chennai, maybe I can visit your place, and see if I can help you optimise the existing system.

Cheers
 

pradski

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Vortex, thanks

my mistake about -10db audible levels. I had set it to decent levels. Now I have entered deep and increased all the levels of volume and master volume. ultimately what I want to say is speakers do not produce the certain sound even at -10db. But if you go on incresing they come in to action. In a way I feel they need more power.
Whatever we say AVR s fail in delivering the quality of music in stereo mode. Hence since my yam time I had got used multichannel music. they were compensating the missing.

I have a feeling the best denon avr for wf 9.6 will be 2809.



Editing, since moment I finished the post saw venkat's post.

Venkat we have done all those still I think there is a problem. Maybe we should seriously think of amp.

You are all welcome to audition my system in Mysore when you are on a holiday. You know mysore is a tourist place.

Thanks
 
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thevortex

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Venkat,

Thats so nice of you to offer to visit the Chennaiites. I was meaning to invite you for an opinion but did not know if I could:).

I will certainly plan something soon and send it out to you to see if it suits your schedule.

Thank you.
 

unleash_me

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I myself have answered this a million times here:rolleyes:, this time however am just plain lazy to type! So here it is - taken straight out of What HiFi forum! I have done this at some point; have done the some configurations to at least half a dozen lazy friends of mine! Trust me it??s worth the effort.

------------
Connect your front left and right speakers to the outputs of the stereo amp ONLY, and the front channel preouts of the Denon to a spare input on the stereo amp.

Select that input, set the volume on the stereo amp to a level you can easily remember - 10 or 12 o'clock will be fine - and then use the receiver's set-up system to balance up the level of the front L/R channels with that of the centre speaker.

Then when you want to watch surround stuff you just choose the input to which the receiver is connected, and set the stereo amp's volume control to the predetermined setting - the receiver's volume control then takes over level setting for the whole system.

When listening to music sources, you use the stereo amp as normal, and the receiver plays no part whatsoever.
------------

Invest in a good 2 channel amp. Do not compromise on music with an AVR, unless of course you are going for the big daddys out there ?? read Lexicon, Arcam, or the cream of the rest.

Hope this should solve your problems!
 

pradski

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I would like to clarify about my post. -10db what I mentioned is a little exaggeration. Now after some days and setting changes with lot of advice. Sound is good. Maybe break in or change of settings. Since all are new I don't know. Some of my posts may have been misleading to some, sorry boys.

The problem is hardly I can listen to the system. All these days my neighbor had given for a boys hostel. They were noisy and I could blast.

Now he has made it a paying guest house and all these girls have moved in since last night. I wonder what is my fate. ( in terms of music I am thinking )
 

venkatcr

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Now he has made it a paying guest house and all these girls have moved in since last night. I wonder what is my fate. ( in terms of music I am thinking )

Whatever your fate in terms of music, your other fate is moving in the right direction, and coming nearer you, eh? :):):)

Cheers
 
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