Modern 15inch drivers vs Altecs & Tannoys

[Thad E Ginathom]

Very few modern drivers are made by Music Lovers, every thing has become a mass Market

Would you like hifi to be, once more, the preserve of the wealthy? Entry level? Ha! What entry level: if you are not rich, you don't get stereo sound. At all.

the Vintage( the popular ones) can produce the LF,Mid and the Hi freq in such a way that you are lost in its Musicality.

If any speaker doesn't do that then it is a failure.

 

[greenhorn]

Would you like hifi to be, once more, the preserve of the wealthy? Entry level? Ha! What entry level: if you are not rich, you don't get stereo sound. At all.

The problem with hi fi becoming affordable is that the bottom end of the market is more interested in things other than high fidelity. Looks, features, Surround, Eq modes, Mega Bass is what sells, and midrange is not exactly a priority. Hence sub sat systems becoming so popular.

 

[prem]

Tonality. Speed. Attack. Dynamics. Harmonics. Overtones. These are the qualities i look for in a system. I have heard overtones only on highly resolving systems. Hifi parameters like imaging, soundstage, etc automatically fall into place when you get the above qualities.

To me tonality is very critical and is the heart of the music production. The other qualities bring you closer to live sound. IME good vintage drivers have great tonality. But speed, dynamics, etc are a bit of a question mark. The newer drivers have these but suffer a bit in tonality. So both have their strengths. Getting either of these drivers to give you the qualities it does not possess is the real challenge when building a system

 

[Rajiv]

Hi,
Thought you all might find this interesting. It's from an interview with Laurence Dickie, who worked on the B&W Nautilus speakers and then founded Vivid Audio. I believe he's from the objective/scientific/measurement oriented camp.

Best system ever heard in you life?

After we had launched the G1 Giya in Seoul I was taken to visit a Mr Cheung who has one of the most impressive collections of Western Electric equipment in the world. He played me a cinema system with dual 18s on W-horns and twin 594 compression drivers on a multicell horn, all field coils and all driven by the original racks and a dCS front end. I have to admit I was blown away. The music was full of character but just came out and enveloped you. Truly amazing.


Mr.Dickie is talking about a system that was designed and built in the 1930's and 40's.

Mono and Stereo High-End Audio Magazine: Exclusive interview with Vivid Audio

Laurence Dickie




Regards
Rajiv

 

[prem]

Hi Rajiv

I too have heard a full blown WE system in HK. The best i have ever heard. But those speakers i think almost cost about a crore. And they are huge.

This gentleman has a DCS stack and vintage WE stuff. Marrying modern with vintage is a good approach to balance out each others deficiencies

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

The problem with hi fi becoming affordable is that the bottom end of the market is more interested in things other than high fidelity. Looks, features, Surround, Eq modes, Mega Bass is what sells, and midrange is not exactly a priority. Hence sub sat systems becoming so popular.

There is loads of entry-level hifi that has no bells and no whistles, just stereo sound. There has been for decades, and it does it at prices that, in previous decades were unimaginable.

If you must compare, then at least compare like with like.

The BBC monitors I heard were delightful, but I would not have taken them home, even if they had been available. They sounded sweet, but very light compared to modern bookshelves.

He played me a cinema system with dual 18s on W-horns and twin 594 compression drivers on a multicell horn... ... .../QUOTE]I wonder where one would find the like to compare like-with-like?

 

[prem]

I feel its not that old stuff cannot be recreated. But i am not sure in todays world there will be a huge audio market for 15 inchers and large horn systems.

Space is at a premium. Further the no of gadgets in a household has increased manifold. So obviously size becomes a crucial factor. Smaller the better. Bose caught on to this big time. I guess the challenge for manufacturers will be in trying to build small systems to sound big.

I would love to have horns at my place but there is no way i can accommodate them in my living room. I am sure most of us will have problems having a large speaker at home.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

But i am not sure in todays world there will be a huge audio market for 15 inchers and large horn systems.

There never was! Imagine how expensive the high end must have been when few could afford the low end!

I suppose the system that the father of a friend of mine had (early 70s when I saw it), two big tannoy speakers, Quad pre/power, must have been something quite special, although I did not know to appreciate it at the time. I also think that they did not have such a system just for enjoying music, but because his living room was also the performance side of the studio that was his profession.

(Of the other stuff behind the glass, I only now remember a disc cutting lathe. Sadly, I never saw it in action)

 

[Rajiv]

Hi,

He played me a cinema system with dual 18s on W-horns and twin 594 compression drivers on a multicell horn... ... ... I wonder where one would find the like to compare like-with-like?

Thad, you are welcome to listen to your favorite Mahler and The Incredible String Band on my Altecs.

The Altecs are the direct descendants of WE , but from a slightly later vintage (1940's).

Regards
Rajiv

 

[viren bakhshi]

Prem: Getting either of these drivers to give you the qualities it does not possess is the real challenge when building a system

If I can paraphrase that : getting a system to possess all those qualities is the real challenge.

In my opinion, the "vintage" drivers have no shortcomings. It's our usage of them that falls short. All drivers have bandwidth limitations, and are designed for a specific use. For example, the vintage drivers have short voice coils, not meant for large excursions. Why use them in designs that call for that. Put that driver in a well designed horn (which were the designs in those days), and, by golly, you'll get all the dynamics you want, and tone too boot.

Well, we should adapt those earlier designs to suit our present living environment. Reduce the scale - live with some limitations. But try and keep the essence of those designs alive - that of reproducing music!

Regards,
Viren

 

[prem]

Yes Viren. The challenge is in putting the system together. And as you rightly mentioned using the right cabinet design and crossover to maximise the benefits of a vintage driver

 

[rajagopal_j]

IME good vintage drivers have great tonality. But speed, dynamics, etc are a bit of a question mark.

Prem, probably you haven't heard the vintage drivers is the right system. IME the vintage drivers are very fast and are accurate. One of my test tracks is a Chesky recording of a percussion bit. I am yet to listen to another system which gives the tonality, speed, attack with the dynamics as the Altec 416. Most recently in an audition of ATC EL150 driven by Goldmund electronics here in Chennai last month, the ATC was no where near the vintage drivers. IME vintages are unmatched by modern systems, but my experience obviously does not cover all modern drivers. I am still auditioning and waiting for a modern systems which will cost less than 2 Lacs (for speakers alone) which sound like these vintages.

In my opinion, the "vintage" drivers have no shortcomings.

Put that driver in a well designed horn (which were the designs in those days), and, by golly, you'll get all the dynamics you want, and tone too boot.

+1. I believe you need to put it in more effort when it comes to a vintage driver, not only in the speaker design but also matching equipment and if you believe in them then the cables as well, to extract the best out of them than what you will when using modern drivers. The end results are just amazing. Hearing is believing!

For example, the vintage drivers have short voice coils, not meant for large excursions. Why use them in designs that call for that.

The theory makes sense, but you discover something new only when you push the limits of theory. You will be amazed at the sound of these drivers when put on an open baffle, which calls for large excursions.

 

[prem]

Rajagopal, I use Lowther myself which is a vintage design.

 

[kanwar]

The theory makes sense, but you discover something new only when you push the limits of theory. You will be amazed at the sound of these drivers when put on an open baffle, which calls for large excursions.

Pushing a driver with small excursion capability into large excursions in an open baffle[If that really happens in your case] point towards 3 main things:

1. The driver when driven to extremes of its linear excursion range enters into non-linear region and gives you certain harmonic distortion, but there is high possibility that this distortion sounds very 'Magical' to your ears, hence you like it.

2. Your source material doesn't goes much lower into subharmonic LF range, in otherwords it remains well above 35-40hz and you don't encounter anything around 20hz hence nothing to fear about over-excursion, hence no bad influence in sound.

3. Your amplifier power is not much which can drive the drivers into over-excursion. For example you cannot push a 50W driver into over-excursion with a 10-40W amp, if kept well below clipping.

 

[rajagopal_j]

1. The driver when driven to extremes of its linear excursion range enters into non-linear region and gives you certain harmonic distortion, but there is high possibility that this distortion sounds very 'Magical' to your ears, hence you like it.

There is hardly any excursion, infact the cone hardly moves, so there is no question of distortion due to extreme excursion.
But lets assume what you are saying is happening, still isn't that what we want from whatever Hifi systems we choose? It has to sound magical to our ears, if accuracy is your magic then go for that. End of the day you want to feel good when you listen to it.

2. Your source material doesn't goes much lower into subharmonic LF range, in otherwords it remains well above 35-40hz and you don't encounter anything around 20hz hence nothing to fear about over-excursion, hence no bad influence in sound.

Quite possible. Being a percussionist, I do listen to a lot of percussion tracks. I am sure there are some notes around 40Hz there probably is not much music info below that and I am good with it. Except pipe organs and few bass guitar tracks there are not many real world instruments which go below 40Hz. For someone who has a need that requires it to go below 40Hz then this is not a design for them. The drivers are quite capable much below 40Hz, these are the drivers which were running in just about every movie theatre in the 80s and 90s.

3. Your amplifier power is not much which can drive the drivers into over-excursion. For example you cannot push a 50W driver into over-excursion with a 10-40W amp, if kept well below clipping.

Well the altecs 416 is rated for continuous power of 30W, my LF amps are rated 15W per channel and I hardly move past 25% volume, and that itself is so lound you cannot sit in the room. I have been upto 50% and still haven't seen much excursion or distortion from the drivers.

 

[rajagopal_j]

Rajagopal, I use Lowther myself which is a vintage design.

All the more reason why you will know what I am saying. The lowthers are one of the most difficult drivers to match with speaker design and electronic equipment. They are quite unforgiving. When you get everything right, they have some amazing depth and clarity not found in modern design drivers.

I have a close friend here in Chennai who has really old Lowthers i think PM4s but i am not sure about the model, he swears by them. He had them in their original lowther back loaded horn cabinets made of walnut wood, driven by a Decware amp. It is one of the best sounding speakers I have heard. About 3 weeks back he made Voigt pipes for them which sound different and amazing.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Thad, you are welcome to listen to your favorite Mahler and The Incredible String Band on my Altecs.

I am looking forward to hearing Capt Rajesh's Tannoys, when he builds the cabinets for them, but some time and distance will be involved in that. Your Altecs are a lot closer, and also I know you have a treasure store of hifi, and I'd be very happy to take up that offer. Let's set up a session

 

[Rajiv]

Hi,

Let's set up a session

Thad, how about this weekend? When would it be convinent for you?

Regards
Rajiv

 

[SIDEWINDER18X]

One is the extension. Other is the speed and dynamics. In this regard modern drivers may be better. The older ones may have better tone and timbre though. It boils down to personal preference.

Magnets have nothing to do with tone & timbre.

THREAD ...... "Modern 15inch drivers vs Altecs & Tannoys"
This discussion should focus more on vintage alnico vs modern ferrite & neo magnets. There are many misconception on this. Especially that alnico sounds better than ferrite & neo.

 

[keith_correa]

What about shorting rings in these "vintage" drivers? Anyone know what the difference is between the ones used in the old vs the new?