Modern 15inch drivers vs Altecs & Tannoys

i dont think this discussion is really about vintage drivers and modern drivers but more of well designed/manufactured drivers and compromised drivers

There were both of these in the past and both of these exist now as well.

In vintage, only the good ones survive because no one bothers about the others.

But i do believe the greatest innovations in drivers happened in the past while today it is more of material science which is improving.
 
Magnets have nothing to do with tone & timbre.

THREAD ...... "Modern 15inch drivers vs Altecs & Tannoys"
This discussion should focus more on vintage alnico vs modern ferrite & neo magnets. There are many misconception on this. Especially that alnico sounds better than ferrite & neo.

:D really? Wow, all these morons buying vintage gear. Ever hear a comparison with the same driver using different magnet types? Trick question eh? Go figure. Do not ask me for explanations, I am too dumb:D
 
People keep forgetting the main question whenever these topics are brought up.

What is the goal? And how do we measure if we have achieved it?

Is it subjective? Or is it objective?

An objective goal can be achieved, a subjective one is harder to gauge as one simply relies on a person's opinions which are colored by extreme bias as is evident by all the vintage lovers blindly supporting their choice. Most vintage lovers are closed minded, elderly and not quite open to the idea of science but one needs to remember that the "greats" of years past relied on science (of the time) to create what they did. They did not simply put together random parts and listened and said "this is good, lets sell it". They designed the equipment with whatever knowledge they possessed. It may not have been as advanced as the science of today but it was science none the less. To those who simply overlook the value of science, I ask would you be conversing on this forum today if it were not for science? Would all of us not be living in caves worrying about our next meal?

If we are lords of the earth, we owe it our understanding of the universe and the laws that govern it, science so to speak.

That said vintage drivers are very different than older drivers. In those days power was not cheap or plentiful, if one wanted to go loud a horn was a necessity further a well designed horn requires size. Today people want smaller cabinets thus eliminating the use of horns and some that may pop up tend to be undersized hence achieving less than stellar results. Also a lot of people tend to try their hand at audio design where simulation tools are available to aide in design, these people lack the experience and knowledge required to produce a fine design though it may be a decent design.

Let us focus on LF, today in the pro world space is an issue. Power however is much cheaper and easily supplied. This leads to the use of vented alignments which typically offer the most measured SPL for a given volume of space. The trade off is you use more power and more drivers but using large horns is typically not an option in pro audio these days due to limited space, especially when transporting the equipment. Also handling massive horns is a problem, stacking 40x double 18 vented cabinets is easier than trying to move fewer but massive horns, especially a horn designed to actually do 30Hz well outdoors. There are still horns out there that do this but they are not close to the ideal of horn theory which requires more size.

Now, since we use a lot of vented cabinets what does that mean? Typically a driver for a front loaded horn requires a strong motor and not as much excursion or power handling, the cone tends to be lighter due to the low Qes/Qts but needs to take the pressures of the horn. A ideal driver for a vented alignment needs to have a lot more excursion, more power handling and a bit weaker motor and a resultant heavy cone. As someone in the industry once told me "Modern drivers designed for vented alignments tend to have a lot of gunk in them to make them durable". I would like to add, not all modern drivers are solely designed for vented alignments or suffer these problems least someone quickly crucify modern drivers.

The vented cabinet of the same size as the horn using double the drivers and more power will go louder, and lower but it won't sound and feel like a horn. Why? Because nothing sounds and feels like a well designed front loaded horn, in any part of the frequency range. I am not quite sure what horns do to be honest in terms of quantifiable measurements, but they do something right, so very right.

The magic people speak of is not in the drivers so to speak, but rather due to an era which demanded the use of horns and in the horns lies the magic which used appropriate drivers using the technology of yesteryear, modern technology will be far superior to these vintage designs in both design and drivers when appropriate modern drivers are used (or even custom made drivers for a specific design as horns are picky about the drivers used). In such a modern design executed by a talented designer given enough space, the results WILL be nothing short of extra ordinary especially when coupled with a acoustically treated space and optimized DSP.

When people speak of the magic and awe inspired by old Western Electrics, I full believe what they say. It is not because it is vintage. It is because they used a large horn resulting in a less compromised solution as per the science of horn theory using drivers that were made for such designs. All science, no magic.

One last note to add, coming full circle, subjectivity is vague. People like distortion and so on but this does not mean they should not, simply that they should realize it is distortion they prefer as that enables them to achieve the flavor they like by understanding their preferences. It is not accurate but the listener perceives the reproduction to be accurate to his or her experience of music. Whether one chases subjectively based "accuracy" or actual measured accuracy, I am sure I speak for all here that we all love music. Be it whatever flavor on whatever system, we are here to further our knowledge of the reproduction of our music, our way, whatever that may be.
 
Prem, probably you haven't heard the vintage drivers is the right system. IME the vintage drivers are very fast and are accurate. One of my test tracks is a Chesky recording of a percussion bit. I am yet to listen to another system which gives the tonality, speed, attack with the dynamics as the Altec 416. Most recently in an audition of ATC EL150 driven by Goldmund electronics here in Chennai last month, the ATC was no where near the vintage drivers. IME vintages are unmatched by modern systems, but my experience obviously does not cover all modern drivers. I am still auditioning and waiting for a modern systems which will cost less than 2 Lacs (for speakers alone) which sound like these vintages.



+1. I believe you need to put it in more effort when it comes to a vintage driver, not only in the speaker design but also matching equipment and if you believe in them then the cables as well, to extract the best out of them than what you will when using modern drivers. The end results are just amazing. Hearing is believing!



The theory makes sense, but you discover something new only when you push the limits of theory. You will be amazed at the sound of these drivers when put on an open baffle, which calls for large excursions.

after reviewing various woofers for his" beyond the Ariel" project and inputs from various DIYers Lynn opted for GPA Altec for this speakers
 
People keep forgetting the main question whenever these topics are brought up.

What is the goal? And how do we measure if we have achieved it?

Is it subjective? Or is it objective?

An objective goal can be achieved, a subjective one is harder to gauge as one simply relies on a person's opinions which are colored by extreme bias as is evident by all the vintage lovers blindly supporting their choice. Most vintage lovers are closed minded, elderly and not quite open to the idea of science but one needs to remember that the "greats" of years past relied on science (of the time) to create what they did. They did not simply put together random parts and listened and said "this is good, lets sell it". They designed the equipment with whatever knowledge they possessed. It may not have been as advanced as the science of today but it was science none the less. To those who simply overlook the value of science, I ask would you be conversing on this forum today if it were not for science? Would all of us not be living in caves worrying about our next meal?

If we are lords of the earth, we owe it our understanding of the universe and the laws that govern it, science so to speak.

That said vintage drivers are very different than older drivers. In those days power was not cheap or plentiful, if one wanted to go loud a horn was a necessity further a well designed horn requires size. Today people want smaller cabinets thus eliminating the use of horns and some that may pop up tend to be undersized hence achieving less than stellar results. Also a lot of people tend to try their hand at audio design where simulation tools are available to aide in design, these people lack the experience and knowledge required to produce a fine design though it may be a decent design.

Let us focus on LF, today in the pro world space is an issue. Power however is much cheaper and easily supplied. This leads to the use of vented alignments which typically offer the most measured SPL for a given volume of space. The trade off is you use more power and more drivers but using large horns is typically not an option in pro audio these days due to limited space, especially when transporting the equipment. Also handling massive horns is a problem, stacking 40x double 18 vented cabinets is easier than trying to move fewer but massive horns, especially a horn designed to actually do 30Hz well outdoors. There are still horns out there that do this but they are not close to the ideal of horn theory which requires more size.

Now, since we use a lot of vented cabinets what does that mean? Typically a driver for a front loaded horn requires a strong motor and not as much excursion or power handling, the cone tends to be lighter due to the low Qes/Qts but needs to take the pressures of the horn. A ideal driver for a vented alignment needs to have a lot more excursion, more power handling and a bit weaker motor and a resultant heavy cone. As someone in the industry once told me "Modern drivers designed for vented alignments tend to have a lot of gunk in them to make them durable". I would like to add, not all modern drivers are solely designed for vented alignments or suffer these problems least someone quickly crucify modern drivers.

The vented cabinet of the same size as the horn using double the drivers and more power will go louder, and lower but it won't sound and feel like a horn. Why? Because nothing sounds and feels like a well designed front loaded horn, in any part of the frequency range. I am not quite sure what horns do to be honest in terms of quantifiable measurements, but they do something right, so very right.

The magic people speak of is not in the drivers so to speak, but rather due to an era which demanded the use of horns and in the horns lies the magic which used appropriate drivers using the technology of yesteryear, modern technology will be far superior to these vintage designs in both design and drivers when appropriate modern drivers are used (or even custom made drivers for a specific design as horns are picky about the drivers used). In such a modern design executed by a talented designer given enough space, the results WILL be nothing short of extra ordinary especially when coupled with a acoustically treated space and optimized DSP.

When people speak of the magic and awe inspired by old Western Electrics, I full believe what they say. It is not because it is vintage. It is because they used a large horn resulting in a less compromised solution as per the science of horn theory using drivers that were made for such designs. All science, no magic.

One last note to add, coming full circle, subjectivity is vague. People like distortion and so on but this does not mean they should not, simply that they should realize it is distortion they prefer as that enables them to achieve the flavor they like by understanding their preferences. It is not accurate but the listener perceives the reproduction to be accurate to his or her experience of music. Whether one chases subjectively based "accuracy" or actual measured accuracy, I am sure I speak for all here that we all love music. Be it whatever flavor on whatever system, we are here to further our knowledge of the reproduction of our music, our way, whatever that may be.

Very close. However there is still one issue. Vintage driver with low Qt and new driver with low Qt, both designed for horns, still sound very different even with 1 watt input(negligible distortion). :confused:
 
When it comes to compression drivers, the preferred one for Lynn Olson and his team appears to be the new Radian Neo 745 BE. Also he recommends use of Raal Lazy ribbon. None of this stuff is vintage. They are all modern designs. Radian is as modern as you can get. Neodynamium magnet with beryllium diaphgram.

Le Cleach has very clearly said his preference is TAD 4001.
 
When it comes to compression drivers, the preferred one for Lynn Olson and his team appears to be the new Radian Neo 745 BE. Also he recommends use of Raal Lazy ribbon. None of this stuff is vintage. They are all modern designs. Radian is as modern as you can get. Neodynamium magnet with beryllium diaphgram.

Le Cleach has very clearly said his preference is TAD 4001.

Hello Prem,

Are you sure that radian neo 745 is available with BE diaphram, because sometime back they were not able to obtain Radian with BE and Lynn & coT were also trying to get Altec 288 with BE diaphram,i do not know if they have got it or not.

regards

mekr
 
Hi Mekr

Yes Radian 745 is available with Be diaphragm. I do not know about Altec 288
 
Very close. However there is still one issue. Vintage driver with low Qt and new driver with low Qt, both designed for horns, still sound very different even with 1 watt input(negligible distortion). :confused:

I am not an expert in driver/speaker design but I can tell you that one does not simply look at Qts alone when choosing a driver for a specific application.

Have a look and compare this -

http://www.greatplainsaudio.com/downloads/416_8C.pdf

With these modern drivers which have a similar Qts -

0010 15ND930 - LF Transducers - Neodymium 15ND930 : Eighteen Sound - professional loudspeakers

RCF - MB15N401


Notably the differences in Xmax,Power handling,Vas and Fs. Unfortunately the old Altecs don't have BL,Cms,Mms or Le listed. Details on the size of the coil and the length and the gap might also be interesting as well as proper measurements of response and THD.

I would venture a guess that the coil diameter was small, the gap short, the length of the coil small and the Mms light as well as BL relatively low as needed for the assumed light cone. I would also guess that the Cms is very high. Le seems to be a bit of a question mark for me but at least decent I would think. Given the low Q I can only assume the BL^2/Re is highish for the light cone.

I emphasize again that I don't know what the missing parameters are, just making an educated guess. Please do have a look and draw your own informed conclusions.

To add, we need measurements to understand what was happening. As before choosing the right driver for a specific horn design is important when attempting to have a "refined" design.
 
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Very close. However there is still one issue. Vintage driver with low Qt and new driver with low Qt, both designed for horns, still sound very different even with 1 watt input(negligible distortion). :confused:

Off course it sounds different. As posted above, there will be lots of different parameters and that makes the difference. Also, you are comparing an "old" driver with new. Even if someone manufactures the vintage driver now with same exact specifications, it will still sound different. Why? Because one is used/lying around for 40 some years and probably lots of material properties are changed and deviated from specification vs new. Even two drivers from different manufacturing batch can be sounding different because some specs difference.

I am not saying the vintage sound is bad or good or anything. When we listen to any speakers, we listen to its sound as a whole combined with distortion. Distortion becomes part of the experience and it can be pleasing or distracting depending where we come from. An example would be vinyl. Many people like the high frequency roll-off, hiss, noise of vinyl and it becomes part of the experience. You take that out and music sounds artificial and without warmth to them.
 
Hi,

The early designers were music listeners. They had an ear for music, which governed how their designs came out. So, we should learn from them. Not copy them blindly, for there are always improvements to be made, but learn. But if in doubt about what to do, be assured that the "vintage" designs were built for music!

Quoting Lynn Olson

The old guys may have been limited to slide rules, mathematical tables, and nomograms, but they knew their physics, and the devices they designed reflect that. It didn't hurt that the Bell Labs/Western Electric/Altec engineering staff had Stokowski as an on-call musical consultant, or the BBC Research Labs had access to a superb in-house symphony orchestra.

Regards
Rajiv
 
I don't know why a certain subset of "audiophiles" wants to pretend that science never sullied the greatest of hifi designs, or that it is some recent element that has contaminated the field.

Imagine being an engineer or designer in the days when stereo itself it was young and new ground was being broken in acoustic reproduction! All deeply scientific stuff --- as it is today.

However, Rajiv made the point in conversation, today, about the high-fidelity world of "then" being much more closely allied to classical music and acoustic instruments. That (and Jazz, I suppose) was what the elite that bought hifi were buying it for. And that is what the engineers were listening to.

Now the market for stereo equipment is huge by comparison, but the listeners to quality acoustic music are still a minority.

I can believe that maybe this not only makes a difference in the experience of the designers, but probably also influences what their employers tell them to produce.

~
 
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I don't know why a certain subset of "audiophiles" wants to pretend that science never sullied the greatest of hifi designs, or that it is some recent element that has contaminated the field.

Imagine being an engineer or designer in the days when stereo itself it was young and new ground was being broken in acoustic reproduction! All deeply scientific stuff --- as it is today.

However, Rajiv made the point in conversation, today, about the high-fidelity world of "then" being much more closely allied to classical music and acoustic instruments. That (and Jazz, I suppose) was what the elite that bought hifi were buying it for.

Now the market for stereo equipment is huge by comparison, but the listeners to quality acoustic music are still a minority.

I can believe that maybe this not only makes a difference in the experience of the designers, but probably also influences what their employers tell them to produce.


Thad, this is might be a much more philosophical discussion. :)
Fact is that there is very little fundamental research today compared to what was in the past. Today focus is more on smaller/ cheaper. Eg More is perhaps being spent on getting a higher powered battery than on social/ environmental etc etc !
I was in a discussion with one of the directors of Fraunhofer institute last year and she was bemoaning the state of fundamental research today. They are trying to jump start this a little bit more by offering financial incentives to anyone in the world.
I guess the problem is focus and breakdown into super specialization rather than large picture. Even if you look at medicine no one goes to a general physician who looks at the body overall as a system but those who splice and dice and the urologist and nephrologist each feel the problem pertains to their area !
Again this is not a bad thing as we know more, have better options but so we do lose focus regarding the big picture

Maybe this is the same with audio ?
 
And the conversations that go on on a forum like Gearslutz are very different to those that go on on a forum like hfv. (Well, mostly, at least).

There are still engineers recording orchestras, folk music, and other acoustic genres, and long may there be, but fifty-or-so years ago, there were no engineers recording electric guitars, rock, and even purely electronic music, and there were no hifi customers checking that it would sound good on the speakers they were about to buy. Surely the changes have changed the hifi product?

arj, I can look back (although I don't like to ;) ) on the damage that a certain lady (huh!) prime minister did to my mother country. Funding was cut, educational and research facilities had to have projects with foreseeable commercial benefits. Academic carnage. Then, in Industry, one has the increasing focus on this quarter's results, rather than long-term benefits, for themselves, or for anybody else.
 
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I don't know why a certain subset of "audiophiles" wants to pretend that science never sullied the greatest of hifi designs, or that it is some recent element that has contaminated the field.

They are 'Worried Wells' :D

However, Rajiv made the point in conversation, today, about the high-fidelity world of "then" being much more closely allied to classical music and acoustic instruments. That (and Jazz, I suppose) was what the elite that bought hifi were buying it for.

Pro-audio is always designed by keeping in mind the needs of the following:

1. Musicians performing on the stage/concert
2. Recording engineers who actually record the music in studio or live
3. Singers performing on the stage/concert
4. Sound equipment Hirers
5. Live performing artists such as DJ's etc.

Whether its a mixer, microphone, speaker, amplifier, etc it is always tested in the field prior to its launch as a product in pro-audio industry.

For example You cannot expect a mixing console designed by a design engineer to work well and gets successful unless a studio recording engineer/s performs his "usual exercise" on it and give a green signal in the pre-sample run. Pro-audio products which are designed by respected designers are field-tested in their respective areas and feedback is always taken in order to further improve the performance. Live performance tests are a normal thing in this whether its an active speaker as studio monitor or large sound reinforcement power amplifier. Real world field tests are required by nature.

Once i had visited a microphone/speaker manufacturer in China, the factory not only had a proper Anechoic chamber but also had a small band of young artists along with musicians to perform and with dedicated listeners among them were psychoacoustic experts. They first tested the product with measurements and then tried it on real world basis with people skilled in the art to get required feedback. If you guys think that modern drivers/speakers in pro-audio industry are just designed as set of commercial products without any testing with real world human hearing/usage/ergonomics then you are grossly wrong living with such a misconception.
 
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Hi,



Thad, this is might be a much more philosophical discussion.
Fact is that there is very little fundamental research today compared to what was in the past. Today focus is more on smaller/ cheaper. Eg More is perhaps being spent on getting a higher powered battery than on social/ environmental etc etc !................

Art Dudley in Stereophile.

Domestic audio is based on two simple processes: transforming movement into electricity and electricity back into movement. Easy peasy.
Audio engineers have been doing those things for ages. Have they improved their craft to the same extent as the people who, over the same period of time, earned their livings making, say, automobiles and pharmaceuticals? I don't know. But if it were possible to spend an entire day driving a new car from 50 years ago, treating diabetes and erectile dysfunction with the treatments that were available 50 years ago, and listening to 50-year-old records on 50-year-old playback gear, the answer might seem more clear.

Actually, I was just kidding about the answer not being clear in the first place: Compared to the advancements achieved by their colleagues in other fields, audio engineers might as well have spent the past 50 years stripping the leaves off branches and dipping them into termite hills.

Certain new developments have been worthwhile. Hats off to everyone who makes low-friction tonearm bearings, transformers that resist saturation, and other marvels that eluded our elders. Modern capacitors work wonders in some applications, as do modern resistors. Silicon diodes, rectifiers, and regulators are useful. The KT120 is a nice tube. Modern plastics and adhesives have made possible some excellent panel-type loudspeakers. Through the miracle of science, we can now safely and effectively wash 80 years' worth of records.

But it seems the majority of engineers in today's audio industry put their greatest efforts behind the least worthy ideas. Complex cables and their integral "correction" systems. Systems that propagate soundwaves from behind and around the listener. Wireless this, remote that, gold-plated this, carbon-fiber that. Products in all categories that can scarcely be moved, let alone lifted, let alone afforded, simply because sheer bulk is the only way their inventors could imagine to make the things better. And, of course, ever-more-powerful amplifiers, as would be required to drive the industry's ever-less-drivable loudspeakers. God help us.

Remarkably, there remains, in the mainstream of perfectionist audio, a sticky film of reverence for Quad ESL speakers and Garrard 301 turntables that could nauseate at 20 paceslike hearing the members of Styx or Queensryche declare their love of Johnny Burnette and Gene Vincent. This seems especially true of the amplifier makers: "Marantz 8B? Greatest amp ever, and a profound influence on our work." Sure. That explains the Mercedes S-class prices, the ridiculously thick laser-cut faceplates, the complex, heavily regulated circuitry, and the output-power ratings that reach into the hundreds of watts and beyond.

That last one is especially hard for me to swallow.

The sounding board
For 18 years I've reported on that strange corner of the world where people insist on playing records through low-power amplifiers and high-efficiency loudspeakerswhich, of course, is how the thing was done at the dawn of domestic audio. Ever the aspiring John Reed, I became a convert to the cause I covered: Thus I've not only spent a cat's age writing about scores of flea-watt amps and sensitive speakers, I've boughtand occasionally builta goodly number of the things for myself.

Over time, I've become more unshakably convinced that this is the best approach for a record lover such as I, who values tone, touch, and musical flow over all else. (There are a lot of other all elses, from which you and every other listener are free to choose.) That conviction led to my purchase, last year, of a crazy, hulking pair of Altec 846A Valencia loudspeakers. Before their arrival, I had never enjoyed such a high and wild level of system responsiveness in my home.

This choice of words is not casual, but rather is inspired by my visit last year, while preparing an article for The Fretboard Journal, to the shop of renowned luthier Dana Bourgeois. He is among the handful of luthiers who spurred the return, to the steel-string guitar industry, of the voicing techniques once popular in factories before the 1940s and '50s: techniques that were abandoned in an effort to streamline production and to produce guitars that were more durable.

Bourgeois begins by considering the manner in which the instrument will be usedthe player's touch and picking style, the gauge of strings that he or she prefers, the desired degree of loudness, and so forthand selects for the top a pair of spruce boards of the precise degree of required stiffness. Bourgeois and his co-workers then brace the top; tap it at various different nodal points, listening for a particular tone; slightly thin the braces; then re-tap, re-listen, and re-thin until the desired tones are achieved. After the top is attached to the body but before its binding is attached, the luthier flexes the top and, if the desired flexibility is not observed, he or she gradually thins its periphery. Finally, after the top has been trimmed, a luthier trained in the procedure taps the bridge to ensure that the top is pushing back to just the right extent.

This method of matching the instrumentwhich is, of course, an acoustical source, amplifier, and loudspeaker all in oneto the player is so natural, so reliably right, that one wonders why it should be done any other way.

At roughly the time when the larger guitar companies abandoned the notion of voicing their instruments, the leaders of the domestic audio industry decided that, in their quest for flatter frequency response, greater frequency extension, and more "precise" stereo imaging, they would be better off designing their loudspeakers to be unresponsivethat is, to perform less efficiently at transforming electricity into movement, which is the single most important thing a loudspeaker does.

How then, you might wonder, would the consumer drive such an unresponsive loudspeaker? By buying a much more powerful amplifier, of coursebecause, thanks to Our Friend the Transistor, power is cheap. Besides, all competently designed amps sound the same. Right?..............................

....................



Regards
Rajiv
 
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