Dubai HFV (Mini) Meet & Marantz CD 6003 vs. Emotiva ERC-1 CD Player Shootout

[santhosh]

Similar to Preamps and Integrated Amps, most AVRs provide more than one analog inputs for sources. For Eg: CD, DVD, TV, AUX1, AUX2 etc. To the best of my knowledge they are all the same internally and many AVRs allow you to change names of the Input too. For Eg: you may want to call your CD as Ipod Dock or Set Top Box. Irrespective of what input source we choose, the option to listen in Stereo or Direct mode will be available. Surround sound or Stereo processing is perfomed by the AVR depending on what mode we choose.

Digital Inputs (optical, digital coaxial or HDMI) only provide the required bandwidth for multichannel audio (DTS, Dolby) to pass from the source to the AVR/PreProc.

 

[venkatcr]

hmm Venkat - I think it may be an incorrect assumption. AFAIK, DSP can be done on analog inputs as well, for bass management and effects.

It is quiet possible, but I very much doubt it. Analogue connections are provided in an AVR giving the user the option to decide where the DSP and DAC is done. For example, if I feel my DVD player has better sound processing capabilities, I connect directly through analogue - if in this situation, the AVR just bypasses my instructions and reprocesses the data - I will very annoyed.

Bass management can be set even after the DSP by manipulating the frequency response of each speaker's output individually.

Cheers

 

[gobble]

Similar to Preamps and Integrated Amps, most AVRs provide more than one analog inputs for sources. For Eg: CD, DVD, TV, AUX1, AUX2 etc. To the best of my knowledge they are all the same internally and many AVRs allow you to change names of the Input too. For Eg: you may want to call your CD as Ipod Dock or Set Top Box. Irrespective of what input source we choose, the option to listen in Stereo or Direct mode will be available. Surround sound or Stereo processing is perfomed by the AVR depending on what mode we choose.

Digital Inputs (optical, digital coaxial or HDMI) only provide the required bandwidth for multichannel audio (DTS, Dolby) to pass from the source to the AVR/PreProc.

Yep, thats true. And is the term dvd-audio being taken literally for the DVD-A format or is it just a matter of usage here with Onkyo referring to connecting the DVD player?

regards

 

[odyssey]

I was not able to find out the output voltage of the Marantz as it is not mentioned in any of the spec sheets. The Emotiva does have variable gain, and I suspect it has circuitry to compensate for gain differences either within a song or between songs. The 7V is peak for handling extended dynamics.

I suspect the Marantz ouput will be around 2V rms. This needs to be confirmed.

Cheers

The variable gain to me translates to user controllable volume/gain. Is this what the Emotiva has? What was this set as? was volume controlled on this CDP during the audition?
On the circuitry to compensate for various recordings - do you know any other player that does this?

cheers

 

[subhash]

Im not sure why this is coming as such a surprise to many of you. I understand compared to yamaha/onkyo a marantz is considered superior is sq.

Emotiva's products are claimed to be highly audiophile centric and are designed keeping sq as first priority, many in their forums have compared the Emotiva cd player to cary/arcam range products and found it to be superior or at par.

do agree with you audiodelic , you are the one who introduced me to Emotiva.
The emotiva products have been compared to real hi end stuff costing 4-5 times the price and have found to be better and at times very close ,but when it comes to price to performance ratio the emotiva scores and they are truly Audiophile
With my recent experience with the Emotiva i wud blindly go for an Emotiva product anyday ( if only i had come across this company earlier :sad: wud have saved a lot of cash!! )
All Emotiva products claim to have been over engineered and they also do build power amps for Parasound (but the company will not reveal this , i came across this in one of the articles on Emotiva)

wud only say its not fair to comapre the only CDP from Emotiva (which they claim thier reference) with an 6003 Marantz ,something like the 11S1 or 7S1 wud be a close call , but the comparisison wud be better off with separates

 

[anm]

I think trying to compensate level on various parts of a recording is killing the music that was supposed to be.

The variable gain to me translates to user controllable volume/gain. Is this what the Emotiva has? What was this set as? was volume controlled on this CDP during the audition?
On the circuitry to compensate for various recordings - do you know any other player that does this?

cheers

 

[venkatcr]

The variable gain to me translates to user controllable volume/gain. Is this what the Emotiva has? What was this set as? was volume controlled on this CDP during the audition? On the circuitry to compensate for various recordings - do you know any other player that does this?

No, the Emotiva does not have a volume knob. I would actually lost all my respect for the product if it had that. In terms of compensating for gain in the source, that is a just a wild guess on my part.

For all the people who kind of disbelieve something could beat a Marantz, here are a few points in favour of the Emotiva:

• Separate power supplies for each of the major sections: Transport, Display, Digital, Analog. Also too, each of those sections is shielded.
  
• Shielding of each section.
  
• The AD1955 DAC from Analog Devices supports 24 bit, 192 kHz samples and the Emotiva seems to use this effectively. In addition the chips capability to support HDCD decoding has also been used.
  
• Creation of signals using Burr Brown OPA2134 Op Amps in the analogue stage.

Cheers

 

[ajinkya]

It is quiet possible, but I very much doubt it. Analogue connections are provided in an AVR giving the user the option to decide where the DSP and DAC is done. For example, if I feel my DVD player has better sound processing capabilities, I connect directly through analogue - if in this situation, the AVR just bypasses my instructions and reprocesses the data - I will very annoyed. Bass management can be set even after the DSP by manipulating the frequency response of each speaker's output individually.
Cheers

Venkat,
AVRs do have the capability to process analog input signals as well. That is why we have a 'direct' mode to bypass all that. I have seen both a Denon and NAD being able to use the analog CD/DVD inputs and do Dolby Prologic processing on them. What you may be referring to are the 5.1 inputs to the AVR. In this case, you are right - the AVR acts as an amplifier and does not add anything to the signals.

I also agree with you that most AVRs do not differentiate between the analog inputs in terms of audio circuitry. They are all the same with different labels being given. So, the test comparison is still valid, in my opinion, as long as Onkyo has not mentioned that it treats the CD input differently.

 

[suri]

So, the test comparison is still valid, in my opinion, as long as Onkyo has not mentioned that it treats the CD input differently

the moot point is - does the onkyo treat the cd input differently?

if, as venkatcr says, the onkyo uses the same circuits to (process) and amplify both the signals which are input at cd and dvd analogue (inputs of the receiver), then the test comparison is valid.

else, the test needs to be repeated with both players supplying their outputs to a singular input on the receiver in turn (by thekinge).

another thing which has been troubling me-

- why would the manufacturers and purveyors of AV receivers give/specify particular names to the analogue inputs at the back of the receiver, if the said receiver treats all incoming signals in an identical manner-

they might as well label the inputs -

input 1,
input 2,
input 3,
input 4,
input 5,
input 6,
input 7,
input 8.

they should learn, of course, that there is no fooling the eagle-eyed on hifivision!

 

[sunder]

Reversing the connections, in my opinion is not really going to make any difference. Other than two independent RCA analogue connectors outside, I am sure they are both sent to the same audio circuitry inside. Mind you these are not digital connections, rather two analogue connections.

Even at home I use these two connections between multiple sources. In pure direct mode, they do not make any difference.

Regarding the soundstage being an effect of the amp, speakers or source, in this, case makes do difference. Since all other factors were the same, we can only conclude that the CD Player made a difference. Since it was able to centre the main singer/instruments perfectly, I suspect it was sending the data in a manner that enabled the amp and the speakers to create a larger soundstage. The Marantz was clearly limiting the sound stage and the speakers were very clearly 'visible' to me with my eyes closed. It was like two sound walls that were created to the left and right of the speakers, and the sound was not allowed to go out beyond that. When the Emotiva was playing, the walls just vanished.

The Emotiva has a variable output voltage stating from 1 V rms and going to 7 V rms. I suspect the player automatically compensates for gain loss in source.

Here is comparison of the specs

Marantz

* Frequency Range: 2Hz-20KHz
* (S/N: 111dB
* THD: 0.002%
* Channel Separation: 110dB
* DAC: Cirrus Logic

Emotiva

* Frequency response: 0-20Khz (+/- 0.1 db)
* S/N: >100dB (A weighted)
* THD: <0.01% 0dB 1KHz)
* Channel separation: >95dB - ref. 1kHz
* Output voltage: 1V rms (7V peak)
* DAC: Analog Devices

The differences in specs are small, but the Emotiva did seem to perform better. In complicated instrumental numbers, the Emotiva was clearly able to separate the instruments much better.

I know many of you are Marantz fans, but Emotiva seems to have done it's homework well.

Cheers

Dear Venkatji, Most of the stereo listeners trust a DAC and wish
to squeez out the essence of the recordings. IMHO, when we
evaluate a cdp we may give more importance on 'Transport'
to check for trouble free machanism, laser pick-up and jitter values.
It will be more helpful to decide that: is it reliable or not?
Thank you.
Regards,
sunder.

c

 

[ajinkya]

the moot point is - does the onkyo treat the cd input differently?

if, as venkatcr says, the onkyo uses the same circuits to (process) and amplify both the signals which are input at cd and dvd analogue (inputs of the receiver), then the test comparison is valid.

else, the test needs to be repeated with both players supplying their outputs to a singular input on the receiver in turn (by thekinge).

another thing which has been troubling me-

- why would the manufacturers and purveyors of AV receivers give/specify particular names to the analogue inputs at the back of the receiver, if the said receiver treats all incoming signals in an identical manner-

Suri,
Indeed many AVRs do have the option of arbitrarily labeling the inputs to what the user chooses. The Marantz SR6003 and similar models have this capability, as do some Denons. When the input is different, the manual mentions this explicitly, most of the time e.g. PM7001 CD input has larger RCA sockets and is mentioned as having a better buffer stage for CD inputs, in the manual.

 

[cooltoad]

Congrats, thekinge, hope u enjoy the emotiva for many many years and thanks Venkat for the review.

No, the Emotiva does not have a volume knob. I would actually lost all my respect for the product if it had that.

BTW, Would be interested to know why because my denon 510AE doesn't have volume control unlike Marantz CD5003 i was trying to get, so was disappointed for missing the function .Is it the best way to control the volume from the amp? Sorry for going OT, if i have.

 

[venkatcr]

IMHO, when we evaluate a cdp we may give more importance on 'Transport' to check for trouble free machanism, laser pick-up and jitter values. It will be more helpful to decide that: is it reliable or not?
Thank you.

Most CD manufacturers buy the transport mechanism that are made by companies such as Philips, Teac, Sony and others. The regular transport mechanism is a plastics tray that comes out on which you place the disc.

The Emotiva has gone against the traditional plastic tray mechanism and has designed and built a slot mechanism for itself. The only other company I know that did this is Cyrus.

Most slot mechanism such as those you see on cars have a pair of arms with rubber rollers at the end that grab the CD and pull it in. Invariably this rubber does come in contact with the side that holds the data, and CDs could get mildly scratched. Emotiva has, instead, used a magnetic mechanism that does not touch the data side at all. The CD is held in placed by mild magnets, and then placed inside a fixed tray inside. One the player recognises the CD is in place, the arms move aside for playing.

I do not have the information, but when a company takes so much effort, I am sure their laser pick up and jitter values will be good.

As I mentioned, the CD insertion and removal makes a racket. But if I know how the CD is being treated inside, I will certainly be happy as compared to what happens in cars.

Cheers

 

[gobble]

Most CD manufacturers buy the transport mechanism that are made by companies such as Philips, Teac, Sony and others. The regular transport mechanism is a plastics tray that comes out on which you place the disc.

The Emotiva has gone against the traditional plastic tray mechanism and has designed and built a slot mechanism for itself. The only other company I know that did this is Cyrus.

Most slot mechanism such as those you see on cars have a pair of arms with rubber rollers at the end that grab the CD and pull it in. Invariably this rubber does come in contact with the side that holds the data, and CDs could get mildly scratched. Emotiva has, instead, used a magnetic mechanism that does not touch the data side at all. The CD is held in placed by mild magnets, and then placed inside a fixed tray inside. One the player recognises the CD is in place, the arms move aside for playing.

I do not have the information, but when a company takes so much effort, I am sure their laser pick up and jitter values will be good.

As I mentioned, the CD insertion and removal makes a racket. But if I know how the CD is being treated inside, I will certainly be happy as compared to what happens in cars.

Cheers

Yes I read about that and was quite impressed. I suppose that is what made the SQ of the Emotiva so "magnetic" and attractive? :licklips:

Cheers

 

[gobble]

the moot point is - does the onkyo treat the cd input differently?

if, as venkatcr says, the onkyo uses the same circuits to (process) and amplify both the signals which are input at cd and dvd analogue (inputs of the receiver), then the test comparison is valid.

else, the test needs to be repeated with both players supplying their outputs to a singular input on the receiver in turn (by thekinge).

another thing which has been troubling me-

- why would the manufacturers and purveyors of AV receivers give/specify particular names to the analogue inputs at the back of the receiver, if the said receiver treats all incoming signals in an identical manner-

they might as well label the inputs -

input 1,
input 2,
input 3,
input 4,
input 5,
input 6,
input 7,
input 8.

they should learn, of course, that there is no fooling the eagle-eyed on hifivision!

Suri

If every orifice in the human body had no name like left ear, right ear, mouth, nostril ..<Ahem!> etc etc ... how difficult it would be? Imagine explaining to a nurse (or doctor) - "I am having a sharp pain in orifice 6 of my body. Can you umm take a look and do something about it"? hyeah:


PS: The analogy ends there as all incoming signals are not dealt in the same manner!
Cheers

 

[suri]

Suri

If every orifice in the human body had no name like left ear, right ear, mouth, nostril ..<Ahem!> etc etc ... how difficult it would be? Imagine explaining to a nurse (or doctor) - "I am having a sharp pain in orifice 6 of my body" can you do something about it? hyeah:

Cheers

hehehehe!!!! - gobble -

if all the orifices in the human body had the same function - viz., providing pleasure!! - then it would have simplified matters -

the docs and nurses would be trained appropriately - " orifice no 5 = pain= a battery of 35 tests = an appropriate diagnosis = correct treatment.

the junior nurse might, however, make a mistake in her HOT hurry and instead of using her (physical) digit to examine the other end - might put in your orifice no.1 (mouth) - instead of no. 10 (a##s)

and you would mind that?

 

[anm]

that vol control on 5003 must be for headphone and not for line out.

@Venkat - why would you loose respect for a cdp if it had a volume control? I would respect it very much, if it applies volume control in the analog domain, may be as a passive pre.

Congrats, thekinge, hope u enjoy the emotiva for many many years and thanks Venkat for the review.



BTW, Would be interested to know why because my denon 510AE doesn't have volume control unlike Marantz CD5003 i was trying to get, so was disappointed for missing the function .Is it the best way to control the volume from the amp? Sorry for going OT, if i have.

 

[anm]

I just checked the manual. Output is 1V rms. It is capable of upto 7v peak.
There are no variable outputs, so there is no volume control

Coming back to the point - nokinge - would it be too much hassle for you to reserve the inputs on the avr and play the cdps again? At least all of us would be wiser in either case. I am sure emotiva will outperform even after that.

Venkat - I do not have any problems with marantz loosing. I am quite happy and just want to close the lingering doubts of possible differences.

 

[venkatcr]

Coming back to the point - nokinge - would it be too much hassle for you to reserve the inputs on the avr and play the cdps again? At least all of us would be wiser in either case. I am sure emotiva will outperform even after that.

Let TheKinge first publish a detailed report of our audition. After that, when he returns to Dubai, we can request him to listen to the same songs by switching both the players though the CD input.

Cheers

 

[subhash]

Theres 50 USD off on the ERC-1 only on the 4th of july