Pls Help..Home Theatre - 75K Budget

One other thing, what kind of a differnce can i expect when a driver is Kevlar and Paper.

This is an interesting question I have seen in HiFiVision after a long time. I was immediately tempted to do some research and here are my findings.

There is no such thing as the best material for cone. And a wide variety of materials are used. Do you know that Fostex makes some of the best drivers in the world, and some of their cones are made from banana pulp? Cone materials differ from each other in both mechanical and acoustical properties. Every material will involve some trade-off and compromises.

The three most important aspects of a material are its density, stiffness, and internal damping (also called lossiness). Designers use these materials to prevent a form of distortion called 'breakup'. This happens when the cone material starts flexing instead of moving as a perfect piston. Some of the better designed speakers have cones attached to sleeves on the outer edge that are stuck to the frame. This enables the cone to work more like a piston. Look at the speaker geometry below.

speaksergeometry0236207.jpg


How important are the materials used for cones? Various materials are used and advertised as the 'best'. Different cone materials have different mechanical and acoustical properties that result in various performance compromises, making them better or worse suited for various situations. Essentially the cone should be lightweight. A lighter cone will respond faster to transient signals and have less mass that would make the cone continue to move after the signal has ceased. Designers therefore search for materials that combine stiffness with low mass.

One can argue that the best material for woofers cones is magnesium, and for tweeters, beryllium. These are also the most expensive. Beryllium has a different problem as espoused by Steve Mowry in his thread - http://www.hifivision.com/speakers/4679-whole-truth-about-beryllium-diaphragms.html

But, the material by itself does not result in a better sound. It is how well the designer uses the mechanical and acoustical properties that makes the difference. In any case let us look at some of the materials used for speaker cones.

Paper
Paper has been used for a long time as speaker cones. It's biggest advantage is that it can be formed into any shape quite easily. Untreated paper, unfortunately, is sensitive to environmental conditions. If there is humidity in the air, the moisture content in the paper changes. This leads to a change in the mass of the paper. Though paper can be made stiff, it is usually not stiff enough to get extended frequencies. In addition, paper is not lossy enough to deliver a smooth roll off. Lastly paper is not easy to manufacture with accurate consistency. These will always be miniscule differences between two rolls of paper, leading to differences in their properties.

The moisture issues is handled by applying various surface treatment that make the paper impervious to moisture. Treatments include latex and PVA based coatings.

In spite of these shortcomings, a well engineered paper can deliver bandwidth and smoothness as any other material.

Polypropylene
This is a common plastic material used in speaker cones. Polypropylene is never used by itself, but in combination with some material such as carbon fibre or Kevlar. By it's inherent mechanical property, Polypropylene is well damped thereby enabling it to deliver smooth and extended sound. Polypropylene has other advantages - it is immune to moisture and is easy to manufacture with consistent mechanical properties. Polypropylene is preferred by researchers who undertake analysis of drive units in advanced laboratories.

Polypropylene has two disadvantages - One, it is not easy to bond with other materials, but this has been solved to a large extent by modern adhesives. Second, and more important, is the degradation that invariably happens in the material characteristic. Over time, Polypropylene, like all plastics, will stretch under stress. In addition the heat generated by the voice coil could also soften the material over time.

Polypropylene, though, is a popular choice for high performance systems largely because of their well-behaved high-frequency response and consistent performance.

Other plastics materials used include TPX, HD-A, and HD-I, Neoflex, and Bextrene. All these represent attempts at finding combinations of stiffness, lossiness, density, and sound velocity that are optimal for a given application. They generally have the same virtues and potential pitfalls as polypropylene.

Woven fibres
Carbon fibre, fibreglass, or Kevlar fibres are bonded together with epoxy or similar resins. These fibres generally have high tensile strength, and become stiff when bonded together. These cones can deliver a large bandwidth and can be made comfortably in 8 inch or ever larger sizes to cover a large frequency range. But the high level of stiffness could introduce harshness in the sound signature, particularly in higher frequencies. Various manufacturers (such as B&W) employ various design features such as honeycombed structures to perfect the sound delivery of these fibres. All these pushes up the cost of the cones and thus the drive itself.

Woven fabrics, unlike, Polypropylene, will not lose their mechanical or acoustical properties over time. They are also impervious to moisture and heat, and are thus preferred for long life of the drivers.

Metal
Aluminium alloys and magnesium alloys are popular materials used for metal cones. Unfortunately, metals cones have the lowest internal damping and thus exhibit high peaks in high frequencies around 5KHz and above. Other than this singular breakup, metals behave well and are being increasingly used for cones.

Once you understand the basic characteristics of the materials used in a driver, you will find it easy to look out for specific sound signature. Ask the dealer for details on the materials used for the cones. For example, if an aluminium metal is used, look for sharp peaks in high frequencies. If it is a woven fabric, look for harshness in high frequencies. If it is paper look for how well the driver can cover a broad frequency range - play different music that cover both low and very high frequencies.

Best of luck in your audition.

Cheers
 
There are few glitches in this approach. You may end up with a system that you get bored of in next 6 months.
You get another demo of a different system post purchase and suddenly you may realize you have got an inferior system at almost the same price point, or not too much difference.
Upgrade bug can bite you if you keep on coming to this site, or AV mags.

Speakers are the most important component - and if done right, you may not need to replace them for 10-15 or even 25 years.
So instead of buying at one go and keeping it for 5 years, another approach is buy over next 2-3 years, as and when budget allows, and build a system that lasts much longer.

regards

this is a one time investment, will not touch this for about 5 years
 
This is an interesting question I have seen in HiFiVision after a long time. I was immediately tempted to do some research and here are my findings.

Best of luck in your audition.

Cheers
Hi Venkat,

Thank you so much for this information. The reason why i asked this question was to understand the kind of difference i would experience between the Wharfedale Diamond 9 series and Wharfedale Vardus series, the main difference is the material used, Vardus is Paper and obviously the lower priced one compared to the Diamond series Kevlar.

Vardus does seem to be priced well, which happens to be within my budget.

I was planning to pick up the Jamo S506, members of the forum in various threads made me realise i could do better for 85K.

I have seen a few of your threads in other topics as well.

Many have benefitted from it too. :)

Have you heard the Vardus series?

Thanks in advance.

Regards,
Jacob Inasu
 
Hi! I am a newbie audio-lover, and new to this forum (a very good one!), and guess what, I am putting together a Home Theater. Thought I would share what I have gleaned so far.

I have capped my budget at 60K.

AVR - I am pretty much sold on the Marantz 4002. About 22K. Apart from the glowing reviews (amazon et al), it is also 7.1 & HDMI capable.

Speakers

Funda 1 - Sub-woofer probably the most critical. One with dedicated amp is better. Downward firing is better (my Physicist brother told me so :); but I don't know why, yet).
Funda 2 - Midranges next - correspond closest to human voice range, & hence critical - select music that (a) have a lot of voice & midrange action &(b) you know very well (that u have probably heard thousands of times; for me it would be "Stairway to Heaven", many Floyd and Tull numbers)

Option 1 - Jamo s 406 package. 28K
Option 2 - Marantz LS 6000 package. 32K
Option 3 - Mission 30i Cinema package, with an option of replacing two of the speakers with m34 towers. 35K
Option 4 - Paradigm CT-70 package, with an option of replacing two of the speakers with Paradigm Esprit towers. 35K

I have sat through a demo of 1,3 & 4. Frankly, I could not tell the difference! They all sound good! I am planning to go back with my own selection of audio and video - music I know by heart, and some movie scenes. I am requesting the forum for suggestions on good audio/video selections that are particularly suited to highlight aspects of the audio system playing (apart from what I know well).

My reading on the net seems to peg options 3&4 as bluer-blood audiophile equipment. The only concern I can think of - what about support/repairs etc?

My Drawing or living room is a 19'*11' space, but L-shaped - opens at one side to a dining area and passage. I need to see what all I can do (without any major civil work) to reduce any distortion/dilution. Just starting my research here.

Hope to post again after some learning and auditions.
 
Hi,

I would say remove Jamo 406 from your list. They dont sound good. I haven't listened to paradigms.

Mission is a good option in your list. Kindly try to audition and decide. Mission you would get at better cost if you are getting it from mumbai vijay sales.

Thanks,
Prakash.
 
prakasse, I agree. I listened to demos of Jamo 406 and Paradigm (Esprit Floorstanders with Paradigm cinema 70 CT), and Paradigm was a superior experience. They seem to fill the space with music, more full-bodied ... I don't know how else to put it.
 
The Denon 1909, Onkyo 606, Yamaha 663 are good choices for an AVR.


Next step up the ladder would be to assemble a 5.1 using speakers from companies such as Wharfedale, Mission, AE, Canton etc. These would push you speaker prices itself to around 75 -80 K. So that is out of question.


Cheers

Hi Venkat,

I recently found out that using just the 2 FS and Sub Woofer we can get Virtual Surround SOund through AVR.

Please suggest which would be best for VSS within the price range of 35K to 40K. And also speakers and subwoofer for the remaining 45K.

I would like to explore this option as well, if you have any direction on this please let me know.

This way i would be able to invest wisely and long term.

Read that speakers would be around longer than my AVR, so it would be great if you could help out on this.

Thanks in advance.

Regards,
Jacob Inasu
 
I recently found out that using just the 2 FS and Sub Woofer we can get Virtual Surround SOund through AVR.

Well that's a misconception IMHO. Lot's of people do feel that a quality 2.0/2.1 setup is better than a mediocre 5.1/7.1 setup (which I don't really agree with), but at your budget its not even going to be a mediocre 5.1/7.1 setup, it's going to be much better.

At around 50K a Philips soundbar will be a virtual 5.1 in fact and while its pretty good, its just not 5.1/7.1 so you can imagine what a 2.0/2.1 setup will be like.

Please do consider going with a 5.1 package with BS/satellites for now and adding 2 FS later on to make it 7.1. You are really not going to get surround sound FX with a 2.0/2.1 setup no matter how good it will be. Better to have such a setup (and the best that money can buy) to listen to CCR. But to watch Arnie in Terminator (T2 was my intro to a HT setup way back in 1992) a 5.1/7.1 setup is absolutely essential IMHO. Please don't be or let others convince you otherwise.
 
Now that you have read/heard a lot of opinions on AVR, speakers, it is time to do a little bit of thinking and confirm your personal options, which will help you in making a decision.

a) Is there a change in your budget now? what is the max that you can afford for the whole setup (AVR, Speakers, cables, interconnects etc.)?
b) Decide on which AVR you want to buy and get reliable quotes from local dealers and set aside that amount after haggling on the price.
c) Set aside 10% of your (total) budget for cables, ICs.
d) The rest is for speakers (ain't it easy to guess? :lol:).

You have to then decide on one of these:
1) If you can/plan-to spend more money down the line and music is your priority, get a 2.0 FS or 2.1 BS+sub as per the price of speakers you want to buy. A decent 2.0/2.1 music setup will also give you decent movie experience which you can live with in the short-term, till you upgrade to a 5.1/7.1.
2) If you can/plan-to spend more money down the line and HT/movies is your immediate priority, or if you are not sure about future plans, get a 5.1 set now. Ensure that your speaker series has BS/FS in the line up which could be bought spearately at a later date.

Generally, you can get ~80% VFM with ~20% effort in the decision making process, whereas if you want to get 100% VFM, you need to spend the rest of 80% effort also. It's your call.
 
Hello All,

Thank you so much for all your valued inputs.

Yesterday i was at Total Sound to check out Mission speakers. Reading a lot about them on the forum and also across the globe.

Total sound is not a very big place. I was looking at auditioning the m35i which rather requires lots of room to be able to perform best.

After listening to it, i felt that the Bass was way too much compared to the high notes. But the speakers were placed very close to each other, only about 3 ft from each other and also close to the back wall.

Help me here please.. Do you think the bass was heavy because it was close to each other and the back wall. Also Azmath(the owner) was dead against the Missions and was pushing WHDs 9.6.

He quoted the same rates from both m35i and 9.6, i am more than confused now:eek:. Anyone knows a place where i can audition Missions again in Bangalore.

If anyone has these in Bangalore as their home setup, would be more than willing to drop by to check them out. If its ok with them.

I was impressed with the Jamo S606 & 506 HCS 3. Many in the forum suggested against 506, would i be making a mistake if went in for missions than jamo 606.

Thank you in advance.

Regards,
Jacob Inasu
 
Hello All,



Help me here please.. Do you think the bass was heavy because it was close to each other and the back wall. Also Azmath(the owner) was dead against the Missions and was pushing WHDs 9.6.


Regards,
Jacob Inasu

Total sound is no more mission dealer.. He is trying to clear off his stocks. This might be one of the reason.

Since mission and wharfedale are both now owned by IAG company they are now in the process of having different distributors for mission and wharfedale.

But believe in your ears and purchase the one you like.

Thanks,
Prakash.
 
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Total sound is no more mission dealer.. He is trying to clear off his stocks. This might be one of the reason.

Since mission and wharfedale are both now owned by IAG company they are now in the process of having different distributors for mission and wharfedale.

But believe in your ears and purchase the one you like.

Thanks,
Prakash.

Hey,

Thanks for your response.

Just couldnt link the point though. If one is clearing off stock, he shoul dbe more than happy to push sales for Missions right. Whereas he was not pushing sales on Missions. That gets me very confused.

Really need to speak to someone who has these are home.

Dont know if Jamo S606 is better or Mission m35i. Really need some inputs on these. Both these are good speakers in the forum. Missions not many people own these.

Regards,
Jacob Inasu
 
Hey,

If one is clearing off stock, he shoul dbe more than happy to push sales for Missions right. Whereas he was not pushing sales on Missions. That gets me very confused.

Regards,
Jacob Inasu

He is a primary dealer of wharfedale and he would be more than happy to sell and promote wharfedales than missions[he is not a mission distributor].

But how does it matter? Kindly audition both and go for the one which you like the most.

Thanks,
Prakash.
 
hi,
I picked up a good home theatre some tym back it's a mixture of the yamaha Rx v-440 5.1channel amp,JVC dvd player,space sub,two custom made 60watt RMS per channel front tower speakers which stand around 6feet tall that are truely unbeatable for the price I got them for and tannoy surround speakers...really really happy with the performance,if u like to check it out and hav a feel to how they sound u can e mail me at [email protected] yea and they'll definately be available for the money ur willing to spend....
 
hi,
I picked up a good home theatre some tym back it's a mixture of the yamaha Rx v-440 5.1channel amp,JVC dvd player,space sub,two custom made 60watt RMS per channel front tower speakers which stand around 6feet tall that are truely unbeatable for the price I got them for and tannoy surround speakers...really really happy with the performance,if u like to check it out and hav a feel to how they sound u can e mail me at [email protected] yea and they'll definately be available for the money ur willing to spend....

CAn u post pictures of custom made speakers? How much did it cost u?
 
QUOTE]



Hi Everyone,
I have blank quoted you all just so that this message reaches you.

Anyway, I have narrowed my search to these 2 speaker systems.

Key Points to consider:
1. 70% Video( High action movies with a lot of blasts and fast cars) & 30% Audio (l would listen to Eagles, Richie and it should double up at times to party - Club, trance, hip hop etc)
2. Budget 1L Max (5.1 + Cables + AVR + DVD Player)- Had to increase this.
3. Floor Standers
4. Good warranty and Service
5. Room Size - 19*11 ft
6. Future proof

Shortlisted Speakers and their costs:
1. Jamo S606 HCS 3(S606+S602+S60 Cen) with Sub 250 + Yamaha 663 + Cables from Jamo itself - Grand Total of Rs.98800
2. Mission (m35i + M3dsi + M3C2i + M3as) + Yamaha 663 + Cables - Grand Total of Rs. 99000
3. Mission (m34i + M3dsi + M3C2i + M3as) + Yamaha 663 + Cables - Grand Total of Rs. 93000

Please help me select on these - i would take your reasoning to pay advance for any of the above system this coming Saturday.

663 is a 7.1 channel AVR, looking at option of Bi Amping the front 2 towers. Is this a good idea. I read in another post that this is possible.

All other quotes i have recieved are above my budget.

Really looking forward to your help guys. Thank you.

Regards,
Jacob Inasu

 
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