UPS/Power conditioner for HIFI systems?

[ankitbhargava]

I think this will be at the cost of harmonics. For video this shouldn't matter. But if someone has excellent ears the harmonics may not give the best audio quality.

In reality, we should be holding the govt accountable. We pay for electricity apart from taxes. But that is a rant for another day and probably another thread.

Thankfully I use my system for watching Movies from OTA platforms and in my scenario probably a degraded audio because of Online UPS may be ignored

 

[mbhangui]

Thankfully I use my system for watching Movies from OTA platforms and in my scenario probably a degraded audio because of Online UPS may be ignored

You don't have high resolution audio in movies and what comes from OTA platforms. They are mostly sampled at 48 kHz.

For those who have expensive stereo sets, expensive ears, costly cables and what not, just mentioning that UPS may degrade sonic quality are the ones who may find a difference. For the rest of us it shouldn't matter.

 

[ZzZzZ]

After reading quite a bit and with due help of Google I found out a published paper by APC / Schneider about placement of external isolation transformer along with UPS. The paper is meant for datacentre power supplies but could still be applied to home use of isolation transformer along with UPS and it's placement in the circuit. This paper also highlights the older ups with inbuilt isolation transformer are of little use if any.

 

[ZzZzZ]

Another good product I found during my little research is this EuroControls EVP3PH - 3 Phase Voltage Protector - 63A - Adjustable Over/Under Voltage/Over Current/Voltage Asymmetry/Phase Sequence & Failure Protector - Auto Recovery Switch - Voltage & Amp Meter. This claims to cut off mains in case of overvoltage and undervoltage in less then 0.2 sec.

 

[ZzZzZ]

Third thing I found out that there exists 3 levels or types of surge protector which are meant to used as type 1 directly after the electric meter type 2 on individual switch board and type 3 on end appliance. The publication is by Siemens.

 

[ZzZzZ]

@Subbu68 and @mbhangui kindly give your valuable opinion. Thanks in advance.

 

[mbhangui]

@Subbu68 and @mbhangui kindly give your valuable opinion. Thanks in advance.

That thing will cost a bomb if fully implemented. I would just do the type 2. Can't do Type 1 for lightning protection unless I have my own independent Antilla or a humble bungalow in Timbuktu. But do you really require type 1? In a city multiple buildings have the lightning conductors. All of them provide path for the lightning surge to go to the ground. You really don't require a costly Type 1 installed for all flats at the ground floor distribution panel. These manufacturers and commercial interests !!! Kuch Bhi!!!. All these days I was under the impression that snake oil is used only by the Music HiFI industry.

TYPE 2 SPDs with blown MOV indicators


The type 2 you can buy even on amazon for less than Rs 3000 on an average as shown above. They use MOVs and also have indicator that light up when the MOV life is over. Some have a replaceable cartridge. Your belkin power strip has this MOV but without any indicator or replaceable MOV.

Here is a primer on surge protection https://www.electroindustry.cz/fs/f16e2b46-8ca1-11e7-844f-00155d092b27-phoenix-contact-2.pdf

I am no expert on this. But yes for protection you need Type1 followed by type2 and then type3 in close proximity with the equipment. The photovoltaic SPD mentioned in the PDF are for solar invertors. Type 1, 2, 3 are all UL classifications.

https://library.e.abb.com/public/719c42c53fc446be967b1ec8a2ce73ed/1SXU430108L0201%20SPD%20FAQs_DGT.pdf

Most of the surge that happen in your house are due to switching surge. The device that protect from this need 8/20 µs current impulse protection and this was the norm. Lightning requires faster 10/350 µs current impulse protection. But this thing is bit controversial as very little test data is available.


You will find these SPD employ MOV as the actual thing for surge protection. For lightning, they will use some other method like gas discharge tube. A MOV is a solid state, non-linear, voltage-limiting device typically composed of zinc oxide. MOVs are the protective component of choice for the majority of SPD manufacturers due to their excellent energy handling capabilities and performance. Gas tube “Crowbar technology” or a voltage switching-type component that has high initial impedance but changes quickly to a low value when a surge has exceeded its threshold. Gas tubes are known for their ability to handle high energy transients but have a slower response time. This type of technology can remain conductive with low follow currents even after a surge event has passed. Not recommended for DC applications.

There is some controversies regarding these SPDs. The 10/350 µs waveform made its debut in IEC 61312-1. Controversy surrounded it even before IEC 61312-1 was adopted. Attempts to forge a consensus for the 10/350 µs parameter in the 1995 TC 81 committee resulted in 78% of 18 voting countries voting in favor of the document. When the lightning parameter was reissued in IEC 61312-3:2000, the percentage dropped to 68% of 19 voting countries.

IEEE C62.41.2-2002 assessed the parameters of first-stroke lightning, including the 350 µs “time to 0.5 peak” defined in IEC 61312 documents, and made the following conclusion:

“The case for ‘high-energy’ surge requirements rests on a consensus based on limited data, a matter of some concern when comparing these ‘requirements’ with the field performance of SPDs designed on the basis of the standards of the IEEE C62 family.”

The following three areas of research prompted investigation:

• Who or what was the source of the 10/350 µs waveform?
• Upon what technical data was this waveform based?
• How well did the 10/350 µs waveform represent the parameters of a direct lightning strike?

https://www.ecmweb.com/archive/article/20887091/putting-10350-under-the-microscope

I have myself the following questions.

Do SPDs protect against direct lightning strikes? A direct lighting strike is the most powerful and difficult surge to protect against. Manufacturers of these SPD claim: Proper grounding and bonding of the electrical system and employing proper surge protection can protect sensitive equipment. An SPD with a higher single surge current rating will perform best against this type of event, if the unit is properly installed and the grounding system is adequate. The maximum single withstand surge current rating is defined in IEEE SPD Standard C62.62.

Is “response time” a valid specification? Response time specifications are not supported by any standards organizations overseeing surge protective devices. IEEE C62.62 standard test specification for SPDs specifically states it should not be used as a specification.

Are joule ratings a specification used for SPDs? In the past, some manufacturers have used joule ratings in their specifications. They are not considered a good indicator for SPD performance, nor are they recognized by any standards organizations.

I'm not the only one having these doubts about these expensive surge protectors catered to suppress the 10/350 µs impulse

Before 1995, most countries, including the United States, all use 8/20 waveform test surge protector, “international electrical standard” (IEC) also used the same way. But since then, in the IEC 61643 standard file, but to install in the building into the line is in the surge protector introduced a new “power system protection grade 1” test plan. In order to adapt to the IEC 61643 impact of pulse current (Iimp) requirement, testing institutions will have to test waveforms to 10/350. And this one change of so-called “theory” is: 10/350 of the waveform is more close to direct lightning, therefore, of the wave parameters in such a surge protector to on (IEC says the effectiveness of the SPD) use 10/350 waveform test than 8/20 waveform more appropriate.
However, after a lot of reliable in tracking after investigation, the test scheme IEEE think made similar changes don't have sufficient reason, therefore still stick with 8/20 waveform. But in reality, the introduction of the IEC “power system protection grade 1” test new scheme in the surge protector but caused chaos on the market: in some European manufacturers, at the instigation of, “power system level 1 surge protector” in the design, production in accordance with the 10/350 test for reference, the pulse vacuum tubes as protection components, and announced that the so-called “mainstream” a protector. They basis is simple: “since direct lightning of the wave can only use 10/350 of the pulse waveform kindness, so, ANSI/IEEE on 8/20 of the waveform test standard would not be sufficient to play the role of lightning protection directly.”

Comparative of 8/20 waveform and 10/350 - Electrical Equipment

In this paper, using Glushakow Dion Neri and Bruce white paper as the foundation, the white paper after the approval by the IEEE is determined for academic theoretical document. Before we start, this first pay close attention to the fact that DuoNian, the surge protector (also called transient...

engineering.electrical-equipment.org

 

[Analogous]

Now this is what we really need to worry about.
Apparently capacitors are the answer.

https://www.wired.com/story/sun-storm-end-civilization/?bxid=5eb655e7776621748a5914af&bxid=5eb655e7776621748a5914af&cndid=61041717&cndid=61041717&esrc=CarveLeft&esrc=CarveLeft&hasha=cc73f6bbaa650c8ce3460581fc46b409&hasha=cc73f6bbaa650c8ce3460581fc46b409&hashb=5135fe818f3dbc701bd11a0269ca27f841f85bf8&hashb=5135fe818f3dbc701bd11a0269ca27f841f85bf8&mbid=mbid%3DCRMWIR012019%0A%0A&mbid=mbid%3DCRMWIR012019%0A%0A&source=EDT_WIR_NEWSLETTER_0_BACKCHANNEL_ZZ&source=EDT_WIR_NEWSLETTER_0_BACKCHANNEL_ZZ&utm_brand=wired&utm_brand=wired&utm_campaign=aud-dev&utm_campaign=aud-dev&utm_content=WIR_Backchannel_062422&utm_content=WIR_Backchannel_062422&utm_mailing=WIR_Backchannel_062422&utm_mailing=WIR_Backchannel_062422&utm_medium=email&utm_medium=email&utm_source=nl&utm_source=nl&utm_term=WIR_Backchannel_ReadTime&utm_term=WIR_Backchannel_ReadTime

 

[sivag08]

Thankfully I use my system for watching Movies from OTA platforms and in my scenario probably a degraded audio because of Online UPS may be ignored

Hi Ankit,

How is your experience using the Online UPS.. I also use my HT 90% for streaming movies/series via OTT, like you. I am facing restart issues (at least once or twice a day) with my 2kva servo stab. Thought of considering other options and found out Online UPS could be functionally better than a Servo stabilizer.
Pls suggest if i can go ahead..

Thanks, Siva.

 

[ankitbhargava]

Hi Ankit,

How is your experience using the Online UPS.. I also use my HT 90% for streaming movies/series via OTT, like you. I am facing restart issues (at least once or twice a day) with my 2kva servo stab. Thought of considering other options and found out Online UPS could be functionally better than a Servo stabilizer.
Pls suggest if i can go ahead..

Thanks, Siva.

Hello Siva
From all the discussion around this topic, I realised that Online UPS (Double conversion) is the option which can take care of lot of power related potential troubles. I have recently only installed one and took out the Servo Stab from Power Chain.

I would recommend that you go for it if you also have problems like frequent Power Outage and Voltage Fluctuations.

 

[sivag08]

Hello Siva
From all the discussion around this topic, I realised that Online UPS (Double conversion) is the option which can take care of lot of power related potential troubles. I have recently only installed one and took out the Servo Stab from Power Chain.

I would recommend that you go for it if you also have problems like frequent Power Outage and Voltage Fluctuations.

Thanks a lot for your quick response, mate!

for handing power outage I have an Inverter with 150ah batteries which I've got it connected to the entire household, except for heavy items like AC, geyser obviously..
Pain point is - i am facing extreme fluctuations and low voltage issues (dips down to 130v, at times) time and again which makes the AVR to get restart randomly though connected to a 2kva Servo, thus beating the purpose.
When i checked up for a solution, I've had 2 options:
1. to go with an Online UPS (cost effective),
2. get a Static voltage stabilizer for 1kva & connect HT system OR get a 5kva and connect to the entire household barring heavy items (super expensive).

I am kinda confused on choosing one, but leaning towards to the OnlineUPS slowly.
Ppl told me that there would not be any delay in the response time wrt to an Online UPS, so it could potentially stop the random restart issue against the servo which is comparatively slower to respond to fluctuations.

Is this claim true..? Have you faced any such incidents/issues?

 

[ankitbhargava]

Thanks a lot for your quick response, mate!

for handing power outage I have an Inverter with 150ah batteries which I've got it connected to the entire household, except for heavy items like AC, geyser obviously..
Pain point is - i am facing extreme fluctuations and low voltage issues (dips down to 130v, at times) time and again which makes the AVR to get restart randomly though connected to a 2kva Servo, thus beating the purpose.
When i checked up for a solution, I've had 2 options:
1. to go with an Online UPS (cost effective),
2. get a Static voltage stabilizer for 1kva & connect HT system OR get a 5kva and connect to the entire household barring heavy items (super expensive).

I am kinda confused on choosing one, but leaning towards to the OnlineUPS slowly.
Ppl told me that there would not be any delay in the response time wrt to an Online UPS, so it could potentially stop the random restart issue against the servo which is comparatively slower to respond to fluctuations.

Is this claim true..? Have you faced any such incidents/issues?

Originally my Power Chain had a 3KVA inverter mostly powering AV equipment > Wall Outlet > Servo Stab > Power distribution box > Equipment.
With above I had damages in AVR, Projector and Power Amp.
Clearly this wasn't the solution for me while I am still trying to figure out exact issue with power supply at my Home. Apparently the frequent Power outages, unknown surges and continuous voltage fluctuation could be the cause. This is why I decided for Online UPS. I am also installing Voltage protector including SPD at Meter Level. Hope this helps

 

[sivag08]

Originally my Power Chain had a 3KVA inverter mostly powering AV equipment > Wall Outlet > Servo Stab > Power distribution box > Equipment.
With above I had damages in AVR, Projector and Power Amp.
Clearly this wasn't the solution for me while I am still trying to figure out exact issue with power supply at my Home. Apparently the frequent Power outages, unknown surges and continuous voltage fluctuation could be the cause. This is why I decided for Online UPS. I am also installing Voltage protector including SPD at Meter Level. Hope this helps

Fair enough.. Thanks mate!

In case of an online UPS, would you recommend/suggest any particular brand..?!

 

[kratu]

Originally my Power Chain had a 3KVA inverter mostly powering AV equipment > Wall Outlet > Servo Stab > Power distribution box > Equipment.
With above I had damages in AVR, Projector and Power Amp.
Clearly this wasn't the solution for me while I am still trying to figure out exact issue with power supply at my Home. Apparently the frequent Power outages, unknown surges and continuous voltage fluctuation could be the cause. This is why I decided for Online UPS. I am also installing Voltage protector including SPD at Meter Level. Hope this helps

I see that you have Luminous LD3000T Double conversion UPS. Few questions. Does it have any noise (fan or mechanical hum)? That would be a deal breaker. One of the drawbacks with UPS with inbuilt battery is that it has to replaced once it finishes its life cycle. Probably, one with external battery is easy to replace. Is the usual Line Interactive UPS good enough? Does this have any protection mechanism agains voltage fluctuations/surges?

Also, for my use, LD1000T (1KVa) is good enough, I guess.

 

[ankitbhargava]

Fair enough.. Thanks mate!

In case of an online UPS, would you recommend/suggest any particular brand..?!

Luminous LD series, 2000T or 3000T

I see that you have Luminous LD3000T Double conversion UPS. Few questions. Does it have any noise (fan or mechanical hum)? That would be a deal breaker. One of the drawbacks with UPS with inbuilt battery is that it has to replaced once it finishes its life cycle. Probably, one with external battery is easy to replace. Is the usual Line Interactive UPS good enough? Does this have any protection mechanism agains voltage fluctuations/surges?

Also, for my use, LD1000T (1KVa) is good enough, I guess.

It has a loud fan noise, I only power it on while using HT setup. Its placed outside Room so while watching Movies I don't get to hear any noise.
Yes I am aware that battery would need replacement in 2 years max. However these are not costly battery as such. No, there is no inbuilt. protection from surges. Am getting this installed today for Over/Under voltage and surges.

https://www.amazon.in/gp/product/B07WNZ5DSK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[kratu]

Luminous LD series, 2000T or 3000T

It has a loud fan noise, I only power it on while using HT setup. Its placed outside Room so while watching Movies I don't get to hear any noise.
Yes I am aware that battery would need replacement in 2 years max. However these are not costly battery as such. No, there is no inbuilt. protection from surges. Am getting this installed today for Over/Under voltage and surges.

https://www.amazon.in/gp/product/B07WNZ5DSK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Okay, the presence of fan noise and the fact that it won't protect from surges could be an issue. I understand that you are adding a surge protection at the mains.

 

[kratu]

Folks, upon further exploration, I found few pointers. Audioquest Niagara 1200 and SurgeX series. Both of them have non-sacrificial power protection, EMI/RF filters and auto cutoff in case of power fluctuation. These aren't cheap. I don't mind paying for them if they are worth it. And, if there aren't any cheaper alternatives.

Rontek seems to be more affordable. Anyone could share their thoughts on these?

 

[Musicforsalvation]

Folks, upon further exploration, I found few pointers. Audioquest Niagara 1200 and SurgeX series. Both of them have non-sacrificial power protection, EMI/RF filters and auto cutoff in case of power fluctuation. These aren't cheap. I don't mind paying for them if they are worth it. And, if there aren't any cheaper alternatives.

Rontek seems to be more affordable. Anyone could share their thoughts on these?

If you are having severe power outages in your area then only go for online UPS but if you are looking for protection from surges, spikes, voltage fluctuations then there is no better option than a static stabilizer. I went on to study this gentleman's experience on https://www.hifivision.com/threads/my-journey-on-securing-my-ht-gear.86672/ alongwith my own research I decided that this is the way to go. have booked a similar 5 KVA system with the same manufacturer. Will take delivery at a later stage.

 

[lingamkrishnan]

Luminous LD series, 2000T or 3000T

It has a loud fan noise, I only power it on while using HT setup. Its placed outside Room so while watching Movies I don't get to hear any noise.
Yes I am aware that battery would need replacement in 2 years max. However these are not costly battery as such. No, there is no inbuilt. protection from surges. Am getting this installed today for Over/Under voltage and surges.

https://www.amazon.in/gp/product/B07WNZ5DSK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Hello Ankit,

This particular model has inbuilt isolation transformer..right? , do we still need Voltage surge protector?

 

[ankitbhargava]

Hello Ankit,

This particular model has inbuilt isolation transformer..right? , do we still need Voltage surge protector?

hello
Yes it has an isolation transformer.
Just to be on safer side and also on suggestion of other expert FMs, I am getting this device installed at Meter level for Over/Under Voltage , over current , surge and leakage protection.