Help needed with Room Acoustics (DIY or Ready to Use)

[elangoas]

The boom of the bass frequencies was clearly evident, which can be controlled to a reasonable level by reducing the Sub volume.

Just to get it clear, were you using subwoofer for stereo?

Music sounded totally lifeless and damped in spite of cranking the volume levels. Part of it is due to dynamic volume of Audessey eq which uses a compression to reduce the difference between high and low frequencies.

I don't know technically about Audyssey function.. But i used Audyssey Dynamic EQ & Volume together for movies and when TV channels thru STB.

Dynamic Vol helps when there is volume variation with source like STB.. Don't think it might work for stereo.. Try disabling Dynamic Vol when playing stereo..

There are preset aval in your AVR, Audyssey Movies/Reference & Audyssey Music/Flat.. (Manufacturer's use different names)

Try using one of these preset, by changing the values (0 db, 5db, 10db, 15db) and see it that helps.

From the net, your AVR has Audyssey Multi EQ XT variant, which is capable of a single subwoofer EQ down to 10Hz (or) the lowest Freq resp that your subwoofer is capable of producing in your room..

May be differnet placement might help, but then you will need to run the calibration again..

I tried using Audyssey Dynamic EQ & Vol on my AVR, but didn't like it for stereo as i didn't have a subwoofer then..

 

[drkrack]

Just to get it clear, were you using subwoofer for stereo?



I don't know technically about Audyssey function.. But i used Audyssey Dynamic EQ & Volume together for movies and when TV channels thru STB.

Dynamic Vol helps when there is volume variation with source like STB.. Don't think it might work for stereo.. Try disabling Dynamic Vol when playing stereo..

There are preset aval in your AVR, Audyssey Movies/Reference & Audyssey Music/Flat.. (Manufacturer's use different names)

Try using one of these preset, by changing the values (0 db, 5db, 10db, 15db) and see it that helps.

From the net, your AVR has Audyssey Multi EQ XT variant, which is capable of a single subwoofer EQ down to 10Hz (or) the lowest Freq resp that your subwoofer is capable of producing in your room..

May be differnet placement might help, but then you will need to run the calibration again..

I tried using Audyssey Dynamic EQ & Vol on my AVR, but didn't like it for stereo as i didn't have a subwoofer then..

Thanks for chipping in, The movies sound reasonably good, no issues with the movie sound.

The problem is with music listening with the AVR. It sounds pretty lifeless and dull, previously with Yamaha AVR it was overtly bright and harsh occasionally now the higher frequency response is abysmal. That's the basic reason I decided to go with room treatment instead of and before altering the electronics.

Audessey does a great job for movies, but it kills the audio dynamic range to smoothen the movie audio experience. It includes a part of room correction as well, which is a must for clear dialogue legibility for movies. Also it augments lower frequency sounds for a enhanced movie experience with emphasis on ambient sounds.

I've meddled with all the possible Audessey settings to get a desirable results for music listening but somehow it isn't satisfying enough. I've tried with Pure direct mode which disables any possible signal processing, but the music through AVR is lifeless. The music listening with or without SW, 2/2.1/5.1 Channels isn't up to the mark. All reverberation data using a smartphone apps is showing peak in high frequency range advising me to tackle the high frequency range. Even sound engineers who visited the site are of the opinion to add all around damping to reduce the Echo issues. Even I was initially thinking about HF absorption panels going by the suggestions.

But if you listen to the music here, the higher frequency range is already damped to the point that its ruining the fun of listening to the music. I'm worried if I go with sound engineers, REW or Smartphone reverberation assessment apps & add absorption panels, I may be left with a completely dead room. I'm not sure I'm missing the elephant (currently the treadmill) in the room. The large treadmill was one of the culprits contributing to this unique problem which I can handle now.

Now coming to the stereo amp, its much better than the AVR for music, but HF response leaves lots to be desired. Now after valuable suggestions from FM @sound_cycle I was able to find the culprits and reposition the speakers for a reasonably good experience. Again simulation of absorption panels behind the FS enhances the overall experience which is in accordance with reverberation data and sound engineer opinions. So I'm confused, should I leave it at this point or go ahead with acoustic treatment as suggested by professionals?

So my problem is not much with movies but with a reasonable experience for music listening. I've been trying to get REW working so it'll be easy for others to suggest accordingly.

 

[sound_cycle]

3. Unfortunately it was the humongous Treadmill I own, the real culprit. The thick rubber track and metal attenuated the high frequency response, which occurred only when it is folded up.

:thumbsup:

I'll be travelling this weekend but will re read the REW documentation once again, and we will try and set up a meet and measure session.

ciao
gr

 

[elangoas]

So I'm confused, should I leave it at this point or go ahead with acoustic treatment as suggested by professionals?

So my problem is not much with movies but with a reasonable experience for music listening. I've been trying to get REW working so it'll be easy for others to suggest accordingly.

The Quotation that you have received for treatment is significant.. I think it is almost equal or more than the total cost of the hi-fi equipment's you own..

I have no experience with room acoustics, i think you are attempting a scale of home studio..

Anyways, just my 2 cents..try to get Wharfedale diamonds (or) some speaker that are warm to your room as home demo before you decide to do room acoustics..

 

[sound_cycle]

try to get Wharfedale diamonds (or) some speaker that are warm to your room as home demo before you decide to do room acoustics..

Very curious.

Could you please explain what is a "warm" speaker and why should that be done before "room acoustics".

Please remember also that this discussion is talking about lack of upper mids and highs at the listening position in that room.

ciao
gr

 

[drkrack]

The Quotation that you have received for treatment is significant.. I think it is almost equal or more than the total cost of the hi-fi equipment's you own..

I have no experience with room acoustics, i think you are attempting a scale of home studio..

Anyways, just my 2 cents..try to get Wharfedale diamonds (or) some speaker that are warm to your room as home demo before you decide to do room acoustics..

Yeah that costs a lot I know, but its mostly one time investment & it clearly states my autonomy on the room for this purpose [emoji23] [emoji23]. I have been saving for the purpose for quite a while now, since I have decided to go for only front and back walls instead of the sidewalls the overall cost is reduced to 80k now. I'll go with just matching wallpapers for the sidewalls. Will add diffusers to the sidewalls later if required.

Wharfedale and MAs sound more British laid back , my last speakers were Diamond series, I did A&B comparison with Polks at home before selling them off. Polks were much detailed and bright as compared to wharfdales. I'd rather pick Dali or Klipsch if I need still brighter speakers, though I'm not a bass head in true sense but I do love the stereo music with a added subwoofer. The current problem is a disparity between measurements, professional opinions vs actual hearing experience. So to go ahead or not is the issue & I will have to decide sooner.

 

[manoj.p]

Can you post layout and pics of your room?

 

[elangoas]

Very curious.

Could you please explain what is a "warm" speaker and why should that be done before "room acoustics".

A speaker that is easy on the ears for prolonged listening.

Please remember also that this discussion is talking about lack of upper mids and highs at the listening position in that room. ciao gr

Perfect. The suggestion to try an other speaker was to see if that reduces the harshness before the room treatment.

 

[sound_cycle]

A speaker that is easy on the ears for prolonged listening

If his speakers sound good after rearrangement/ treatment/black magic (and they will) will they qualify

Perfect. The suggestion to try an other speaker was to see if that reduces the harshness before the room treatment.

There is NO harshness, none apparent when I listened at any rate

ciao
gr

 

[elangoas]

If his speakers sound good after rearrangement/ treatment/black magic (and they will) will they qualify

If it benefits the OP, then fine.

There is NO harshness, none apparent when I listened at any rate ciao gr

The description by the OP gave that impression

 

[drkrack]

Can you post layout and pics of your room?

It is in the first post, including the measurements.

There is NO harshness, none apparent when I listened at any rate

ciao
gr

It is reasonably harsh now, after just rearranging the treadmill and speakers positioning, you're all the more welcome to reassess, I've pmed you. I repeated fresh Audessey corrections after rearranging the speakers and furniture positions.

You were right, about the impression ; this combo shouldn't be sounding so dull. We were missing something basic, pushing the treadmill and FS to the back near to their respective walls, changed the scenario completely. The acoustic treatment guys would've succeeded in improving the SQ after covering the 70% room with panels (which would have reduced reverberation) & rearranging the speakers ; means by default, Not with any thoughtful application of their acoustic acumen.

If it benefits the OP, then fine.



The description by the OP gave that impression

I personally don't like very bright sound signature, I usually meddle with manual Graphical EQ settings after I run Audessey, save it as default recommended settings. I believe any AVR can be tweaked to one's own listening preferences. I kept it at default Audessey recommend settings when @Sound_cycle visited my place so that its easier to decide.

@Sound_cycle totally squashes the acoustic differences in character of all audio electronics (that some brand is warm, harsh, musical etc) in general with reasonable authority and proper explanation - one of the myth I firmly believed before meeting him, I thank him for that..

 

[elangoas]

I repeated fresh Audessey corrections after rearranging the speakers and furniture positions.

Great.. Could you share the current settings here.

I see that you have positioned the subwoofer in one corner of the room.. Given that you room is longish, you seem to have no issues with bass..

But from recent reading, the best position for a single subwoofer is either to measure the response(If possible) and place it (or) do the crawl method..

I personally don't like very bright sound signature, I usually meddle with manual Graphical EQ settings after I run Audessey, save it as default recommended settings. I believe any AVR can be tweaked to one's own listening preferences. I kept it at default Audessey recommend settings when @Sound_cycle visited my place so that its easier to decide

.

In general, it is recommended that Audyssey settings (Levels, distance) not be tweaked, with raising the Crossover being the exception.

When you try to alter it to your liking, i think it offset's the Equalization that Audyssey (Dynamic EQ) is designed to recreate in your room.

@Sound_cycle totally squashes the acoustic differences in character of all audio electronics (that some brand is warm, harsh, musical etc) in general with reasonable authority and proper explanation - one of the myth I firmly believed before meeting him, I thank him for that..

Great.. He has better understanding, while most of us believe that the Amp+Speaker chain contributes to most of the sound.. Off-late, reading on subwoofers, i understand positioning the speakers + Acoustics + EQ also helps to a greater extent.

Given my limited experience with room acoustics and positioning the speaker, i would be keen to take cues from this thread..

 

[drkrack]

Great.. Could you share the current settings here.

I see that you have positioned the subwoofer in one corner of the room.. Given that you room is longish, you seem to have no issues with bass..

But from recent reading, the best position for a single subwoofer is either to measure the response(If possible) and place it (or) do the crawl method..

.

In general, it is recommended that Audyssey settings (Levels, distance) not be tweaked, with raising the Crossover being the exception.

When you try to alter it to your liking, i think it offset's the Equalization that Audyssey (Dynamic EQ) is designed to recreate in your room.



Great.. He has better understanding, while most of us believe that the Amp+Speaker chain contributes to most of the sound.. Off-late, reading on subwoofers, i understand positioning the speakers + Acoustics + EQ also helps to a greater extent.

Given my limited experience with room acoustics and positioning the speaker, i would be keen to take cues from this thread..

The Audessey settings recommended settings have been more or less same irrespective of the furniture readjustments..

Levels : FS in minus 4 - 5 range, center in Minus 2.5 - 3 range, SW in minus 12, and for Surrounds its around zero.

I increase all levels by +3 to bring them near to zero, that shouldn't be affecting inter speaker differences as all will be raised. Eg FS with Minus 5 will become Minus 2 & Surrounds with zero will become Plus 3 & SW will be minus 9 & so on...

Distances : is nearly same as the physical distance, I keep it unchanged.

Surrounds : cinema EQ - on (i keep it off for stereo listening)
Audessey EQ - Reference, 0db and Medium.
(I either change to off or LR bypass, 0db same and Light or Off for music listening)

Mostly I switch off Audessey eq for music listening because it makes it life less. Once I disable Audessey & MultiEQ etc, I gain access to tone control and manual Graphical EQ settings. I love vocals and guitar to be prominent, I don't bother HF sounds much so my manual EQ settings resemble much like Live EQ setting on Winamp etc. I know what sounds I like and I get the desired effect irrespective of the AVR brand.

I have two subwoofers currently at diagonally opposite corners in the room. I generally use one SW and keep it below 30% for listening to music. It gets quite boomy even if I keep the SW levels at 50% which I do when I'm watching movies where in both the SW will be used. I don't have much liberty with the SW positioning in the room and I don't intend to change it. Cross over setting is 80hz.

I kept it at default Audessey recommend settings when @Sound_cycle visited my place so it would be easier for us to evaluate room acoustics

 

[elangoas]

The Audessey settings recommended settings have been more or less same irrespective of the furniture readjustments..

Levels : FS in minus 4 - 5 range, center in Minus 2.5 - 3 range, SW in minus 12, and for Surrounds its around zero.

I increase all levels by +3 to bring them near to zero, that shouldn't be affecting inter speaker differences as all will be raised. Eg FS with Minus 5 will become Minus 2 & Surrounds with zero will become Plus 3 & SW will be minus 9 & so on...

Distances : is nearly same as the physical distance, I keep it unchanged.

Why are you attempting to get it to zero? The induvidual speaker level settings are with respect to each speaker SPL from your primary listening position..

Raising it by +3db, you are setting a higher SPL than what Audyssey sets.. Though you have evenly raised it to +3db, it should be same, but i suspect this might impact when you listen to movies..

Surrounds : cinema EQ - on (i keep it off for stereo listening)

Does this mean the EQ is not applied to the fronts & surrounds?

Audessey EQ - Reference, 0db and Medium.
(I either change to off or LR bypass, 0db same and Light or Off for music listening)

Hope you have tried using the other values -5, -10, -15db.. From what i have read, at 0db, Audyssey is trying to create a reference volume in your room used, which is same as studio SPL when movie mix is created..

Since music (It doesn't speficy multichannel (or) stereo) doesn't use the same a movie SPL, there is an offset provided in values -5, -10, -15db.. Whill reduce the SPL..

Mostly I switch off Audessey eq for music listening because it makes it life less. Once I disable Audessey & MultiEQ etc, I gain access to tone control and manual Graphical EQ settings. I love vocals and guitar to be prominent, I don't bother HF sounds much so my manual EQ settings resemble much like Live EQ setting on Winamp etc. I know what sounds I like and I get the desired effect irrespective of the AVR brand.

Here are images quoted from other forum, where there is a comparison between products and presets..

Dirac seems to be one of the best with near perfect flat reponse, followed by Audyssey XT32.. Audyssey XT and XT32 seem to have same curve for movie/music, just the resolution filters being different.. Audyssey Flat is almost identical to Dirac with no difference bet 100Hz - 10Khz..

So without tweaking the speaker levels, try using Audyssey FLAT by using reducing the db values each time..

Her is an image of Dynamic EQ settings and what it does to subwoofer with different values..

I have two subwoofers currently at diagonally opposite corners in the room. I generally use one SW and keep it below 30% for listening to music.

Hope the volume is level matched..Once done, try using both of them 2.2 using "Stereo mode" with effective crossover at 80/100hz..

It gets quite boomy even if I keep the SW levels at 50% which I do when I'm watching movies where in both the SW will be used. I don't have much liberty with the SW positioning in the room and I don't intend to change it. Cross over setting is 80hz.

I don't know, may be that location of the subwoofer is not ideal 9With respect to single sub)... Since you also don't have the liberty to move around, try placing the subs next to Fronts on either sides..

I kept it at default Audessey recommend settings when @Sound_cycle visited my place so it would be easier for us to evaluate room acoustics

Right.. Got it..

 

[sound_cycle]

Dirac seems to be one of the best with near perfect flat reponse

My understanding is that a flat response is not what people prefer to listen to. Had posted about this with linkies and all here http://www.hifivision.com/av-enhanc...oustics-placement-speakers-10.html#post701408

edit: I also seem to recollect that graph (from hometheatershack ????) was from a wrongly measured/ setup Dirac Live (could be wrong, read that over a year or more back)

ciao
gr

 

[MaSh]

The Audessey settings recommended settings have been more or less same irrespective of the furniture readjustments..

Levels : FS in minus 4 - 5 range, center in Minus 2.5 - 3 range, SW in minus 12, and for Surrounds its around zero.

I increase all levels by +3 to bring them near to zero, that shouldn't be affecting inter speaker differences as all will be raised. Eg FS with Minus 5 will become Minus 2 & Surrounds with zero will become Plus 3 & SW will be minus 9 & so on...

Distances : is nearly same as the physical distance, I keep it unchanged.

Surrounds : cinema EQ - on (i keep it off for stereo listening)
Audessey EQ - Reference, 0db and Medium.
(I either change to off or LR bypass, 0db same and Light or Off for music listening)

Mostly I switch off Audessey eq for music listening because it makes it life less. Once I disable Audessey & MultiEQ etc, I gain access to tone control and manual Graphical EQ settings. I love vocals and guitar to be prominent, I don't bother HF sounds much so my manual EQ settings resemble much like Live EQ setting on Winamp etc. I know what sounds I like and I get the desired effect irrespective of the AVR brand.

I have two subwoofers currently at diagonally opposite corners in the room. I generally use one SW and keep it below 30% for listening to music. It gets quite boomy even if I keep the SW levels at 50% which I do when I'm watching movies where in both the SW will be used. I don't have much liberty with the SW positioning in the room and I don't intend to change it. Cross over setting is 80hz.

I kept it at default Audessey recommend settings when @Sound_cycle visited my place so it would be easier for us to evaluate room acoustics

All is fine, no need to change anything except your sub gain. It's too high. Audyssey is having to go beyond its range by setting it to - 12. Try to adjust the sub volume at first listening position till it's in the - 5 to +5 range. Once there, then proceed to other locations.

MaSh

Sent from my Redmi Note 3

 

[elangoas]

My understanding is that a flat response is not what people prefer to listen to. Had posted about this with linkies and all here http://www.hifivision.com/av-enhanc...oustics-placement-speakers-10.html#post701408

Great.. So a roll off is better to balance..

edit: I also seem to recollect that graph (from hometheatershack ????) was from a wrongly measured/ setup Dirac Live (could be wrong, read that over a year or more back) ciao gr

Yes it is hometheatershack. Oh k.. I was just showing the graph as an example of the Audyssey curve..

All is fine, no need to change anything except your sub gain. It's too high. Audyssey is having to go beyond its range by setting it to - 12. Try to adjust the sub volume at first listening position till it's in the - 5 to +5 range. Once there, then proceed to other locations. MaSh

Don't understand why Audyssey set the sub to -12 :sad:

 

[drkrack]

All is fine, no need to change anything except your sub gain. It's too high. Audyssey is having to go beyond its range by setting it to - 12. Try to adjust the sub volume at first listening position till it's in the - 5 to +5 range. Once there, then proceed to other locations.

MaSh

Sent from my Redmi Note 3

That's indicating a prominent room mode is in action, undue boominess is definitely experienced - that's the sole reason I decided to go with basic acoustic treatment. I'm not sure I'll be able to tackle bass frequencies adequately with 2" panel thickness.

Great.. So a roll off is better to balance..



Yes it is hometheatershack. Oh k.. I was just showing the graph as an example of the Audyssey curve..



Don't understand why Audyssey set the sub to -12 :sad:

Precisely, flat response is like, always eating food as prescribed by your dietician.

My understanding is that a flat response is not what people prefer to listen to. Had posted about this with linkies and all here http://www.hifivision.com/av-enhanc...oustics-placement-speakers-10.html#post701408

edit: I also seem to recollect that graph (from hometheatershack ????) was from a wrongly measured/ setup Dirac Live (could be wrong, read that over a year or more back)

ciao
gr

I prefer more like a Live EQ settings on Winamp with a bump in mid range.

Why are you attempting to get it to zero? The induvidual speaker level settings are with respect to each speaker SPL from your primary listening position..

Raising it by +3db, you are setting a higher SPL than what Audyssey sets.. Though you have evenly raised it to +3db, it should be same, but i suspect this might impact when you listen to movies..



Does this mean the EQ is not applied to the fronts & surrounds?



Hope you have tried using the other values -5, -10, -15db.. From what i have read, at 0db, Audyssey is trying to create a reference volume in your room used, which is same as studio SPL when movie mix is created..

Since music (It doesn't speficy multichannel (or) stereo) doesn't use the same a movie SPL, there is an offset provided in values -5, -10, -15db.. Whill reduce the SPL..



Here are images quoted from other forum, where there is a comparison between products and presets..

Dirac seems to be one of the best with near perfect flat reponse, followed by Audyssey XT32.. Audyssey XT and XT32 seem to have same curve for movie/music, just the resolution filters being different.. Audyssey Flat is almost identical to Dirac with no difference bet 100Hz - 10Khz..

So without tweaking the speaker levels, try using Audyssey FLAT by using reducing the db values each time..

Her is an image of Dynamic EQ settings and what it does to subwoofer with different values..



Hope the volume is level matched..Once done, try using both of them 2.2 using "Stereo mode" with effective crossover at 80/100hz..



I don't know, may be that location of the subwoofer is not ideal 9With respect to single sub)... Since you also don't have the liberty to move around, try placing the subs next to Fronts on either sides..



Right.. Got it..

My better half is very sensitive to the Volume levels, especially the number. I can get my desired volume by increasing speaker levels in Audessey but still not crossing 50% on volume wheel [emoji23] [emoji23]

I've tried all of the possible permutations and combinations of Audessey EQ, those are what I prefer if I run Audessey EQ. Don't take Audessey, Ypao, dirac etc or Internet Forum recommendations as gospel there's lots of it without a proper explanation. I leave the end decision on what I prefer to hear.

 

[MaSh]

Try reducing the sub volume till its within range on first seating position. Also, try bringing it away from corners, walls giving it more space to breathe. You could also try stuffing a sock in the bass port to tame it down, if nothing else works.

MaSh

Sent from my Redmi Note 3

 

[elangoas]

Precisely, flat response is like, always eating food as prescribed by your dietician.

I prefer more like a Live EQ settings on Winamp with a bump in mid range.

My better half is very sensitive to the Volume levels, especially the number. I can get my desired volume by increasing speaker levels in Audessey but still not crossing 50% on volume wheel [emoji23] [emoji23]

I've tried all of the possible permutations and combinations of Audessey EQ, those are what I prefer if I run Audessey EQ. Don't take Audessey, Ypao, dirac etc or Internet Forum recommendations as gospel there's lots of it without a proper explanation. I leave the end decision on what I prefer to hear.

So you have a prefrence for Live EQ than the preset offered by Audyssey..

Just a thought - Why don't you consider dropping in at FM@sound_Cycle place and try hearing his set-up with & without EQ, and may be request him to tweak it to your preference (if he allows) and get an idea on how much you like live EQ..

If you like the Live EQ customization, you already have a Denon x2200 which is capable of Zone 2 pre-out and a stereo amplifier handy.. You might well consider Dirac than Modi DAC (You already have a reasonably good DAC in Denon AVR)..

If you still not convinced after live EQ with Denon Zone 2 Pre-out, you can consider Modi DAC (seen your earlier post on DAC in other thread).