Help needed with Room Acoustics (DIY or Ready to Use)

[sound_cycle]

Just a thought - Why don't you consider dropping in at FM@sound_Cycle place and try hearing his set-up with & without EQ

drkrack is of course most welcome.

But the proof of the pudding is in the eating, in your room, so to speak and we are setting up to meet and try out a few things at his place.

ciao
gr

 

[elangoas]

drkrack is of course most welcome.

But the proof of the pudding is in the eating, in your room, so to speak and we are setting up to meet and try out a few things at his place.

ciao
gr

Right.. Great..

 

[drkrack]

So you have a prefrence for Live EQ than the preset offered by Audyssey..

Just a thought - Why don't you consider dropping in at FM@sound_Cycle place and try hearing his set-up with & without EQ, and may be request him to tweak it to your preference (if he allows) and get an idea on how much you like live EQ..

If you like the Live EQ customization, you already have a Denon x2200 which is capable of Zone 2 pre-out and a stereo amplifier handy.. You might well consider Dirac than Modi DAC (You already have a reasonably good DAC in Denon AVR)..

If you still not convinced after live EQ with Denon Zone 2 Pre-out, you can consider Modi DAC (seen your earlier post on DAC in other thread).

I did try it out (the zone2 preout) but wasn't impressed with the results, I don't know what DAC x2200w has, it is just satisfactory. Also both AVR and stereo amp are connected to the same set of speakers, I may damage the drivers if both of them get activated simultaneously due to some wrong buttons getting pressed.

Try reducing the sub volume till its within range on first seating position. Also, try bringing it away from corners, walls giving it more space to breathe. You could also try stuffing a sock in the bass port to tame it down, if nothing else works.

MaSh

Sent from my Redmi Note 3

I'm okay with Volume setting of 30% on the subs and 50% for movies, its not that boomy in that case. If I get above the 50% mark its unbearable.

drkrack is of course most welcome.

But the proof of the pudding is in the eating, in your room, so to speak and we are setting up to meet and try out a few things at his place.

ciao
gr

Sure sir, I'll be mostly traveling to that side tomorrow, I'll update you prior to my visit.

Again thanks everyone for chipping in with suggestions to solve my problem with acoustics, I truly appreciate it. I love to keep experimenting with sound in general, (luckily I'm not finding time for DIY stuff, then it'll be a different issue altogether) so be prepared for a bumpy ride.

 

[elangoas]

I don't know what DAC x2200w has, it is just satisfactory.

Denon x2200w has Texas Instruments - Burr Brown PCM1690 chip, 192kHz/24-bit DAC.

I'm okay with Volume setting of 30% on the subs and 50% for movies, its not that boomy in that case. If I get above the 50% mark its unbearable.

So, am guessing it could be inadequate & inconsistent bass beyond 50% on the sub for your room...

Sure sir, I'll be mostly traveling to that side tomorrow, I'll update you prior to my visit.

Again thanks everyone for chipping in with suggestions to solve my problem with acoustics, I truly appreciate it. I love to keep experimenting with sound in general, (luckily I'm not finding time for DIY stuff, then it'll be a different issue altogether) so be prepared for a bumpy ride.

Nothing beats a First hand experience.. It is much better better than reading articles & perceive it..Do post your impressions of his set-up with & without EQ, looking forward to it..

 

[sound_cycle]

Nothing beats a First hand experience.. It is much better better than reading articles & perceive it..Do post your impressions of his set-up with & without EQ, looking forward to it..

My setup is hardly anything to write about and is not particularly great at Sound stage and imaging or noteworthy in any way.

The setup to listen to would probably be this one http://www.hifivision.com/diy/61250-effects-speaker-placement-room-treatment-4.html#post680136

Regardless if first hand experience at my place is what you would like I extend an invitation to you to come over for a listen

ciao
gr

 

[elangoas]

My setup is hardly anything to write about and is not particularly great at Sound stage and imaging or noteworthy in any way.

Not a problem.. drkrack preferred something like Live EQ.. Since he would be first time user for your set-up, would like to hear his feedback...

The setup to listen to would probably be this one http://www.hifivision.com/diy/61250-effects-speaker-placement-room-treatment-4.html#post680136

Honestly, i have never heard/nor read abt the gear in his signature hyeah: He is too far...

Regardless if first hand experience at my place is what you would like I extend an invitation to you to come over for a listen ciao
gr

Thanks for the invite.. I will drop in, if i happen to come to Hydb.. Had you been in chennai, would have been the first to come & get hands on experience

 

[drkrack]

Yesterday, we (myself, @Sound_cycle, his son) did a bit of objective testing at my home. Both immediately agreed just rearranging the treadmill, tower speakers made a lot of difference. The otherwise "Bright" labelled speakers sounded horribly dull just due to an innocent looking humongous treadmill. Room plays a lot more role than I expected it to be. In fact this should be the first advice for anyone considering buying or upgrading his music system. I can't emphasize that much because I myself was a happy victim and learned by my own mistakes. The sound is reasonably bright now and we went ahead with further testing.

We first checked Dirac setup which showed the boom in the bass frequencies, which adding filter gave me a smooth sound which I prefer. Next testing was done using REW software which pegged the reverberation at 260-300ms. Some basic paneling would definitely improve the Sound quality and overall experience. Though I don't understand the technical aspects much, but @Sound_cycle was patient enough to bear my intrusive ignorance throughout. He'd be a better person to opine further.

We played with his bifrost DAC which made appreciable difference, now I'm sure about my next purchase by the way.

I'm very thankful to @Sound_cycle and his son for helping me with the room acoustics. He traveled with his small PC box, DAC, mic and necessary cables which made things quite easy. Will update with room treatment pics soon.

 

[sud98]

You can probably re-sell the excess panels in the forum now

 

[elangoas]

Ok Great..

Yesterday, we (myself, @Sound_cycle, his son) did a bit of objective testing at my home. Both immediately agreed just rearranging the treadmill, tower speakers made a lot of difference. The otherwise "Bright" labelled speakers sounded horribly dull just due to an innocent looking humongous treadmill.

Appreciate some more details on speaker re-positioning and distance from boundaries for better understanding..

We first checked Dirac setup which showed the boom in the bass frequencies, which adding filter gave me a smooth sound which I prefer. Next testing was done using REW software which pegged the reverberation at 260-300ms. Some basic paneling would definitely improve the Sound quality and overall experience. Though I don't understand the technical aspects much, but @Sound_cycle was patient enough to bear my intrusive ignorance throughout. He'd be a better person to opine further.

Was this with (or) without a sub ?

We played with his bifrost DAC which made appreciable difference, now I'm sure about my next purchase by the way.

DAC (or) Dirac ?

I'm very thankful to @Sound_cycle and his son for helping me with the room acoustics. He traveled with his small PC box, DAC, mic and necessary cables which made things quite easy. Will update with room treatment pics soon.

@Sound-cycle, appreciate your efforts in making drkrack room, a better one.. [emoji106]

 

[drkrack]

Ok Great..



Appreciate some more details on speaker re-positioning and distance from boundaries for better understanding..



Was this with (or) without a sub ?



DAC (or) Dirac ?



@Sound-cycle, appreciate your efforts in making drkrack room, a better one.. [emoji106]

It was Dirac only setting initially, then Dirac + DAC, and then DAC only. Adding a Dirac suggested filter improved the listening experience very much. DAC plus Dirac was best, plain DAC also enhanced the sound by a great margin. Since using a Dirac on regular basis isn't a option for me, I'll go with DAC upgrade for sure.

The treadmill was pushed to the right back corner that's it. It was at first reflection point of right FS earlier. Most importantly I had kept nearly 2ft distance from back walls for front speakers, which turned out to be a wrong decision. Instead I pushed them all the way back, almost 2 inches away from the wall which enhanced the high frequency sounds ; making it bright enough for what Polks are known for. They're nearly 2 ft away from the side wall on left side and 4ft from right side (a disparity which can be easily changed). These are very simple experiments with positioning of furniture and speakers which greatly enhanced the overall quality of sound. This was a lesson for me that, every room is different and blindly following Internet dictum that, speakers need a breathing space etc are not universally applicable. Your room is different and you only you have to experiment and decide what's the best place for your FS.

All measurements were done in stereo (pure direct mode) only, without subwoofer via Denon AVR only. Contrary to the popular belief, Polk FS had adequate bass (of course in my case - and my room) , to fill the entire room, there's actually no need to use the subwoofer for stereo listening. I opted out of Taga subwoofer group buy earlier, because I was already finding my room quite boomy. Now controlling the bass frequencies isn't as easy as for high frequencies so I'll just plan to reduce the reverberation effects with treatment for front and back walls and first reflection points. Dialogue legibility and clean vocals are my priority in any case.

You can probably re-sell the excess panels in the forum now

Not bought single panel as of now, I'll catch hold of local designer to get it done more efficiently.

 

[elangoas]

It was Dirac only setting initially, then Dirac + DAC, and then DAC only. Adding a Dirac suggested filter improved the listening experience very much. DAC plus Dirac was best, plain DAC also enhanced the sound by a great margin. Since using a Dirac on regular basis isn't a option for me, I'll go with DAC upgrade for sure.

Ok.. Looks like some form of EQ even in an untreated room is better..

The treadmill was pushed to the right back corner that's it. It was at first reflection point of right FS earlier. Most importantly I had kept nearly 2ft distance from back walls for front speakers, which turned out to be a wrong decision. Instead I pushed them all the way back, almost 2 inches away from the wall which enhanced the high frequency sounds ; making it bright enough for what Polks are known for. They're nearly 2 ft away from the side wall on left side and 4ft from right side (a disparity which can be easily changed)

.

Vow...From 2 feet to 2 inches..Interesting..Almost as good as wall mounting..

All measurements were done in stereo (pure direct mode) only, without subwoofer via Denon AVR only. Contrary to the popular belief, Polk FS had adequate bass (of course in my case - and my room) , to fill the entire room, there's actually no need to use the subwoofer for stereo listening.

Let me not contradict here, but multiple subs seem to do a better job for bass in a room is what i understand and also from hands on experience.

Now controlling the bass frequencies isn't as easy as for high frequencies

Multiple subs seem to address some of the room issues without treatment (Correct me if am wrong)..

Post your impressions after you do the required treatment..

 

[sound_cycle]

Let me not contradict here, but multiple subs seem to do a better job for bass in a room is what i understand and also from hands on experience.
<snip>
Multiple subs seem to address some of the room issues without treatment

Listening is subjective. no discussion.

But the audio/ physics side of things is not.

I note you said seem, but sadly that is where it ends.

As for "some form of EQ even in an untreated room is better" - you should try some treatment, positioning and maybe DRC in your rig. You will not go back to where you were without it. The pics of your room / arrangement were very similar to what I had and I know the untreated version had too many issues that came in the way of enjoying music. PS: DLCS =/= some form of EQ. That is like saying (and I don't know anything about cricket or its players so forgive me if the analogy is wrong) Jonty Rhodes was some form of fielder LOL!

FTR even with a quick and dirty measurement and correction the bass went from boom to nice and tuneful. There is a lot more to gain too

ciao
gr

 

[elangoas]

Listening is subjective. no discussion.

But the audio/ physics side of things is not.

Same here..

I note you said seem, but sadly that is where it ends.

As for "some form of EQ even in an untreated room is better" - you should try some treatment, positioning and maybe DRC in your rig. You will not go back to where you were without it. The pics of your room / arrangement were very similar to what I had and I know the untreated version had too many issues that came in the way of enjoying music.

I said "seem" because, i tried one placement for the subwoofer's and found the bass to be very good..

The more i try in different rooms, placement i will get closer.

Sure.. Right now hunting for an AVR in my budget that can take advantage of the speaker/subs..

PS: DLCS =/= some form of EQ. That is like saying (and I don't know anything about cricket or its players so forgive me if the analogy is wrong) Jonty Rhodes was some form of fielder LOL!

Ha ha.. Good one.. Wish it was like Dhoni

FTR even with a quick and dirty measurement and correction the bass went from boom to nice and tuneful. There is a lot more to gain too ciao gr

Great.. From what you have tried, EQ does better to bass even if speakers are placed close to room boundaries? I mean from 2 feet to 2 inches...

 

[sound_cycle]

Same here..

so you agree listening is not a useful substitute :thumbsup:

Ha ha.. Good one.. Wish it was like Dhoni

Will have to google later and figure out.

Great.. From what you have tried, EQ does better to bass even if speakers are placed close to room boundaries? I mean from 2 feet to 2 inches...

don't read anything into specifics, look at the big picture. Note I had said that we did not have time to experiment with positioning. That is all WIP very quick and dirty

ciao
gr

 

[elangoas]

so you agree listening is not a useful substitute :thumbsup:

When i was considering a sub, came across few articles that emphasised on subs room placement and then multiple subs and still reading..

So said same here

 

[drkrack]

Ok.. Looks like some form of EQ even in an untreated room is better..

.

Vow...From 2 feet to 2 inches..Interesting..Almost as good as wall mounting..



Let me not contradict here, but multiple subs seem to do a better job for bass in a room is what i understand and also from hands on experience.



Multiple subs seem to address some of the room issues without treatment (Correct me if am wrong)..

Post your impressions after you do the required treatment..

Multiple Subs will help in uneven distribution of Bass frequencies in whole of the listening area, the quality of bass response isn't going to change much in my opinion, If it is Boomy with one Sub, it'll continue to be boomy when you add another sub, only the boom will be felt equally throughout the listening area. When we are trying to figure out methods control the boom caused by only FS and Sub combo by DIRAC filters or acoustic treatment etc .. adding another Sub would unlikely to be a solution. Precision of bass (that is faithful & correct reproduction of bass frequencies) is a different issue than unequal distribution bass in listening area in which case adding another sub in a diagonally opposite area will help in my opinion.

I think speaker and furniture repositioning is a simplest & inexpensive solution for enhancing the listening experience and everyone should experiment for better acoustics. Adding a DAC is definitely worth it, which I'm experiencing with my M8. Again incremental value of expensive cables is a issue which I'm not convinced about, I have ordered for Panels and work is started will update you with pictures soon.

 

[elangoas]

Multiple Subs will help in uneven distribution of Bass frequencies in whole of the listening area

Nope.. There are some placement options with multiple subs for every room..

Here is a link to get some inputs on the same - Subwoofer Connection Guide For A Multi Subwoofer System | Audioholics

the quality of bass response isn't going to change much in my opinion, If it is Boomy with one Sub, it'll continue to be boomy when you add another sub, only the boom will be felt equally throughout the listening area.

Am not so sure here, but boom represents inadequate bass.. Adding a second sub should only help to even that and not multiply it..

One more article - 1 Big Sub VS 2 Smaller Subs Subwoofer 101

When we are trying to figure out methods control the boom caused by only FS and Sub combo by DIRAC filters or acoustic treatment etc .. adding another Sub would unlikely to be a solution. Precision of bass (that is faithful & correct reproduction of bass frequencies) is a different issue than unequal distribution bass in listening area in which case adding another sub in a diagonally opposite area will help in my opinion.

Evenly exciting the bass at room corners (or) midway points of the room seems to be better than bass produced by any BS/FS near room boundaries.. I was surprised when u said that you moved the FS from 2 feet to 2 inches to wall and you felt the bass was good.. I don't know abt Dirac, but i assumed it was doing a great job there..

I think speaker and furniture re-positioning is a simplest & inexpensive solution for enhancing the listening experience and everyone should experiment for better acoustics.

True.. Take it..

Adding a DAC is definitely worth it, which I'm experiencing with my M8.

Great..May be it is..But when i tried 2.2 mode in avr and the ripped the speakers of bass upto 100hz, the speakers were playing some more details than before.. The bass from the speaker in an untreated room were masking these details..

I have an SMSL USB DAC (budget) handy, will try with the same 2.2 mode with AVR and check for any difference..

Again incremental value of expensive cables is a issue which I'm not convinced about

No idea abt expensive cables..

I have ordered for Panels and work is started will update you with pictures soon.

Great..

All this is with my limited knowledge on room acoustics and reading on different articles from the net..

Am happy to correct, if any of my views are incorrect..

 

[sound_cycle]

Nope.. There are some placement options with multiple subs for every room..
{Snip}

All this is with my limited knowledge on room acoustics and reading on different articles from.

That suggests you have not tried any treatment in your room which leads me to infer that you have not heard tuneful bass in your room ( your room and arrangement
from your pics was very similar to mine).

No amount of reading (or my posting) will show you the difference. When you do listen to it (boom free bass) it will blow your mind as to what you are missing.

Btw it is perfectly possible to get musical bass without a sub. Or two

Ciao
Gr

 

[elangoas]

That suggests you have not tried any treatment in your room which leads me to infer that you have not heard tuneful bass in your room (your room and arrangement from your pics was very similar to mine).

I haven't done the room treatment yet, but will get there once i complete my set-up.

No amount of reading (or my posting) will show you the difference. When you do listen to it (boom free bass) it will blow your mind as to what you are missing.

True.. I can only take cues from reading and try making my room better..

Btw it is perfectly possible to get musical bass without a sub. Or two

Ok..

 

[MaSh]

Interesting discussion here. How and from where can we get the kit that was used to measure the room? Have you made or got links to any videos of how to go about working with the software?

Mash

Sent from my Redmi Note 3